The Babylonian map of the world, circa 2700 BP

reply to post by GezinhoKiko


Bitter

Some consider that to be the sea

Originally posted by GezinhoKiko
reply to post by Harte

 

hi harte
heres an interesting link you may enjoy
just found it thru the Wiki link Hanslune provided in the OP
its a nice reference link for further research in ancient maps if anyones interested

Ancient Cartography

The unofficial oldest map in the world was discovered in Ukraine in 1966, dating from about 11 - 12,000 B.C. Inscribed on a mammoth tusk it was found in Mezhirich, Ukraine. It has been interpreted to show a river with dwellings along a river. However, the best claim to the title of "the earliest map in the world" appears on a beautifully engraved silver vase from Maikop in Ukraine, according to James and Thorpe. It was found in a Ukrainian tomb dated at 5,000 years old. It shows two rivers, a mountain range, a lake or sea and wild animals (3).

Thanks for the input, cannot say that mammoth tusk isn't particularly convincing thou!

Thanks for sharing!
Much appreciated.

Babylonian maps.. very interesting!

I'm still waiting for them to find a Phoenician map circa 800-600BCE that shows the majority of Africa's coasts as well as a relatively detailed Mediterranean. Those sneaky merchants.. Heck, I do believe it was Pharaoh Hatshepsut that sent a fleet out to the Horn of Africa via the Red Sea for goods during her reign, and her (or another Pharaoh) had sent a circumnavigating fleet around Africa in it's entirety. This, of course, was all at a time when 'no ships were actually seaworthy'..

Originally posted by Fimbulvetr
Babylonian maps.. very interesting!

I'm still waiting for them to find a Phoenician map circa 800-600BCE that shows the majority of Africa's coasts as well as a relatively detailed Mediterranean. Those sneaky merchants.. Heck, I do believe it was Pharaoh Hatshepsut that sent a fleet out to the Horn of Africa via the Red Sea for goods during her reign, and her (or another Pharaoh) had sent a circumnavigating fleet around Africa in it's entirety. This, of course, was all at a time when 'no ships were actually seaworthy'..

They had quite seaworthy ship what the Europeans didn't have was navigation, long term storage of food nor a way to keep their ships at sea for long periods

I believe you are thinking of Hanno and Hatshepsut she sent an expedition to Punt

Hanno circumnavigation of Africa

Originally posted by Hanslune
and Hatshepsut she sent an expedition to Punt

Hanno circumnavigation of Africa

Yup, Punt/Ethiopia for frankincense and myrrh. Because she was a boss like that. And no, my friend, I was referring not to Hanno, but to Pharaoh Necho II. I couldn't recall the name off the top of my head, but I knew somewhere in the histories there was a Pharaoh who had been interested in circling Africa.

www.ucd.ie...

reply to post by Fimbulvetr


Ah yes you are correct it was Necho, Hanno didn't quite make it all the way around

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by 11andrew34

 

I take it as a local map set in a larger context, it may have had some meaning to the maker that wasn't intended as a map. As only scribes and priests could read the use of this as 'propaganda' would have been limited.

In that case, moving from the center outward, why not have some symbolic representation of the otherwise undepicted real and known world before you show the world ocean and the mythological realms? It would ruin the corral message/effect, so it's not there.

If literacy was a requirement for written propaganda to be effective, the Bible would have been ineffective for most of its history, and the opposite is true. It was more effective as a propaganda tool when most people couldn't read it.

Propaganda can be effective simply because it is in physical form, which gives it authority. You yourself don't have to be able to read it; the priest can simply say 'look, it's all right here, it's not our fault your ignorant eyes can't read it.' It makes it part of the cultural landscape, part of the way things are. The law code of Hamurabi and other publicly displayed stele sort of things worked like that. Most people couldn't read them, but it was still an effective expression of their authority in that it made people more likely to accept it and defer to it.

And of course in this case, they used a picture. The priests would be expected to answer questions about the workings of the world. You could ask them what the world was like and they'd tell you what they were supposed to tell you, and if you didn't believe them, they could show you this picture. If you actually could read a little, you'd see that it was all indeed labeled just as the priest was saying it was.

Just speculating for fun of course. I'd agree that to really know it's purpose you'd need to know where it lived and how it was displayed. I mean I'm sure I'll get no argument from you on that sort of basic idea of archaeology type thing. I'd guess it was being shipped somewhere when it was lost if they found it in the river, or maybe somebody threw it in the river during a regime change or who knows what, so who knows what it was doing before that.

Was it at least somewhat publicly displayed or just hidden away? I'd have to agree it wouldn't be useful as propaganda for general consumption if it were hidden away in a secret chamber, but in that case, it might be used as indoctrination for zealots, i.e. priests that weren't intended to actually have good and useful knowledge, but simply do what they were told.

Originally posted by NihilistSanta
In the picture of the tablet there appears to be a hole in the middle. Is this intentional or is it just a result of chipping? Looking at the triangular shapes and this hole made me think of a sun-dial. Perhaps this was a way calculating time or plotting position relative to the sun? I don't know much about cartography so this could be way off but couldn't help but notice the similarities.

Now this I agree is an avenue of curious possibilities. There does seem to be a little divot hole in the center where you could do a little navigation with a staff. Then, the circular area is just the horizon.

What I would say against this sort of idea though is that I really doubt anybody would need this sort of tool to navigate so locally. There would be established roads, maybe not good ones, but at least commonly used routes. If you wanted to avoid the roads, plenty of people would just be very familiar with the local landscape and where things were; maybe not your average farmer, but trade was coming and going often enough, and while agricultural labor wouldn't get around much, shepherds and cow herders do cover a good bit of ground.

Maybe then it was for doing a little geomancy sort of thing with your architecture? What mythological realm should the door of your house point towards, or not point towards?

reply to post by 11andrew34


Yes I agree with your analysis on how the map may have been used; ie priest to laymen. My propaganda comment was out of time