false apostle Paul is the 1st AntiChrist! Christians quote Paul to counter radical teachings of Jes

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I've also heard "there are no stupid questions..."

But that isn't true, I've heard some utterly moronic ones before.

Well we both know thats just silly...

So you are suggesting "God" inspired the entire bible, and its message has survived for 2000 years... yet his intentions were that we rely on bible commentary to "solve" obvious contradicitons... because its not something everyone can understand without said commentaries....

And of course Jesus was well versed in hyperbole... even though he spoke out against it here...

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Interesting...

reply to post by Akragon


Hyperbole is not deception. And Greek and Hebrew are quite complex languages that do not always translate smoothly to English, and customs and historical contexts definitely don't translate. Commentaries are quite helpful and I suggest looking at numerous ones because some have nuances and insights others may lack. Commentaries are an enormous blessing to scholarship.

Originally posted by Akragon
Mat 23
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

VS.

Romans 4:1
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Do you think that Jesus was banning the use of the word "father"? Or was he talking about the concept of God, and how no one should apply the notion of God to any man?

The first one doesn't make a lot of sense, since it's just a word, while the second one makes perfect sense, seen through the eyes of Jewish theology.

reply to post by ahnggk


Hi!

I'll get straight to the point. You are very wrong to say that St Paul was false and an anti-Christ. This is why you are wrong:

1. Everything Paul ever taught to his fellow Jews and the Gentiles was inspired by Christ. I know the NT thoroughly and Paul's every word rests on The Word. He just preached The Word of God as revealed to humanity through The Messiah Our Lord Jesus Christ.

2. Paul was human with all the human weaknesses. He said that of himself. Remember the "thorn in the flesh"?

3. Jesus actually appeared to Paul and not many humans can say that in truth.

4. Paul was absolutely VITAL in getting Jesus Message to the Gentiles. He is Jesus' Heavyweight Champion of The World.

5. Paul was beheaded at Rome for witnessing Jesus Christ, alongside Peter who was crucified upside down. Paul was a Martyr for Christ. He is a Saint in the strictest sense and I expect the true 12th Apostle and future Judge of humanity.

6. Paul has helped me to become stronger in faith. Through his witnessing of The Lord Jesus Christ I have been able to gain a much better understanding of The Word of God.

7. Paul never said one single word that contradicted Christ's Message.

8. Paul shows us how one minute we can be absolute haters of The Word and do unspeakable things and through the experience of Christ in our lives we might become one of His greatest Heroes. Remember that other Hero of God MOSES had murdered an Egyptian man yet The LORD still chose him to be Israel's Greatest Prophet?; "Lest they turn again that I might heal them"! The LORD showed His strength, power and willingness to forgive and ability to transform a human heart from something that is cold and dead to something warm and eternal. Paul stood and held the coats of the people who stoned Stephen. He was out to get the Christians. Look how he "turned". That reveals to me that there is hope for us all. If Paul can move up the ranks to the top after having before forsaken Christ then any man or woman can. That is the whole point of it.

9. I love St Paul and you have deeply offended his memory with the twoddle you wrote. I am offended by it because I know that what you have said is wrong, very wrong. I expect Jesus would be very offended at you, too, for dishonouring one of His Chosen Apostles, an honour you and I shall never know my friend.

But I do forgive you your grave error of course and I am sure Jesus and Paul will, too!

Bye bye!

reply to post by adjensen

Do you think that Jesus was banning the use of the word "father"? Or was he talking about the concept of God, and how no one should apply the notion of God to any man?

Kinda like many christians call Jesus God in the flesh?

Heres an interesting clip i found from some Christian blog site...

Trinitarians strip the Glory of the Father which only belongs to Jesus and give or ascribe that Glory to another person called the Father the unknowable God. In their ignorance they do not understand that Jesus is the Father in the flesh and the title 'FATHER' belongs to Jesus Christ alone. He is the Father of all creation and the Father of His children, to those who are born again by His Spirit, the Spirit of God.

puritanbelief.blogspot.ca...

Originally posted by Akragon
Heres an interesting clip i found from some Christian blog site...

Trinitarians strip the Glory of the Father which only belongs to Jesus and give or ascribe that Glory to another person called the Father the unknowable God. In their ignorance they do not understand that Jesus is the Father in the flesh and the title 'FATHER' belongs to Jesus Christ alone. He is the Father of all creation and the Father of His children, to those who are born again by His Spirit, the Spirit of God.

Well, there's no support for that claim in scripture and it especially makes no sense in those instances where Jesus is interacting with God the Father. On the other hand, that's not a "Christian blog site", as they are clearly anti-Trinitarians, which makes them something other than Christians.

So, I have to ask -- why all the hating on Paul? It seems rather clear that you just don't like him and you're digging for reasons not to, but why not just say that, as an early church founder, he wasn't Christ, but wrote about him in a manner that was consistent with him?

What is in your beliefs that is in conflict with Paul, but not Christ, even though Paul is not in conflict with Christ?

One of the BIGGEST clues about the trinity is to take a look at WHO attacks it and WHY:

Cults and false religions are the majority of those who back the anti-Trinity Doctrine.

That ought to tell you something because ALL of these groups were created by the same group of people and for the same purpose. To HIDE the truth.

Faith Groups that Reject the Trinity

• Muslims
• Mormons
• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Christian Science
• Scientology
• Satanism
• Arians
• Armstrongism
• Christadelphians
• The Way International
• Unification Church

reply to post by Akragon


The New Testament never says Christ is actually The LORD. It does time and time say Jesus is God in the flesh (and that He was). In Revelations we can see clearly that Christ reigns for a thousand years after the tribulation, at the end of which time The LORD HIMSELF comes to the earth to dwell in the New Jerusalem that descends onto the new earth out of the clouds. Check it out. It's on the "sport page" (back page) of The Holy Bible!

A humble man like Bob Marley will tell you;"ONE Love". He does not mean that we all become one person. We become one in Spirit. Revelation very clearly states that The Rider on The White Horse comes first, then The FATHER HIMSELF!

Can't wait. This earth is so crap without Jesus.

Originally posted by Murgatroid
One of the BIGGEST clues about the trinity is to take a look at WHO attacks it and WHY:

Cults and false religions are the majority of those who back the anti-Trinity Doctrine.

That ought to tell you something because ALL of these groups were created by the same group of people and for the same purpose. To HIDE the truth.

Faith Groups that Reject the Trinity

• Muslims
• Mormons
• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Christian Science
• Scientology
• Satanism
• Arians
• Armstrongism
• Christadelphians
• The Way International
• Unification Church

I am liking your style. You got a clear straight head about this!

Respect! The Trinity is real; FATHER, Son and Holy Spirit. They are all one in Spirit, yet seperate entities. Still I think Christ would be better proud of us if we were spending this time helping and caring for each other instead of picking bones over doctrine. We'll end up like the scribes and pharisees carrying on like that!

Originally posted by Murgatroid

www.jesusfamilies.org...

Twisted doctrines? jesusfamilies.org is nothing BUT twisted doctrines...

This link source seems to be from some type of cult that also teaches against the Trinity.

Thanks I didn't realize they were cult but some time ago, I was doing my research on Paul so I wasn't particularly hunting for cults.

But their presentation was the most clear cut one out of the many links I found from different sources, but the themes remained the same.

Since they used verses, you can check it out yourself with your Bible and think for yourself. I am doing an 'independent' research and not asking Christians in my church yet. Probably it would be pointless due to the bias. I won't be surprised if a 6-year old Christian told me that Paul is not lying and the Bible is 100% truth. But the question is, have they done their homework or is it because somebody else told them?

Being truly in a relationship with God, God will reveal you his wisdom, his Word. Much of the research I'm posting here did not start from the internet but from my personal study of the Bible. From my understanding of the Bible, then came my urge to confirm if others have arrived to similar conclusions (through internet research).

To think that it is wrong but the fact is that the Bible itself and from mostly non-canon books such as Book Enoch predicted that false doctrines will emerge and will be accepted by many Christians and persecute those few would preach the true Gospel and call them evil. I'm already seeing this first hand in real life, not here in forums. To many Christians, their god is the Bible, they are quick to defend its inconsistencies and twist the meaning according to their worldly desires. Only few are willing to go and defend the true Gospel nowadays. I'm surprised to find many here in ATS, but the environment is much more different inside a Christian Church!

Jesus is clear, there is only one way (one meaning, one interpretation), it's radical, it's narrow, it won't accommodate your worldly desires, not even a bit, our planet, nature, and animals are suffering because of our worldliness, God loves them a lot. Do we side with the world or God? It's not all about suffering, if you are in the presence of God, it's Bliss wherever you are no matter how miserable and desperate the situation is, things become beautiful!

reply to post by adjensen

Well, there's no support for that claim in scripture and it especially makes no sense in those instances where Jesus is interacting with God the Father. On the other hand, that's not a "Christian blog site", as they are clearly anti-Trinitarians, which makes them something other than Christians.

So you're saying ONLY trinitarians are Christian?

Catholics say only they are the true Christians... the Orthodox community say they are the only true Christians...

And lets not forget the "trinity" was added 300+ years after the fact...

It never ends...

So, I have to ask -- why all the hating on Paul? It seems rather clear that you just don't like him and you're digging for reasons not to, but why not just say that, as an early church founder, he wasn't Christ, but wrote about him in a manner that was consistent with him?

Well let me ask you... IF a self proclaimed liar, and murderer tried to sell you something... would you buy it?

Paul is not consistant with Jesus, and his doctrine of "grace" was not taught by him either... Theres plenty of reasons why i don't like him, yet i do admire what he wrote about love... and while i did not know him in person obviously i can take his writing as exactly what it is... Useless

Mainly i take issue with the fact that many Christians attempt to counter Jesus with paul... I even had one guy on this forum say that Pauls words are "more important" then Jesus...

What is in your beliefs that is in conflict with Paul, but not Christ, even though Paul is not in conflict with Christ?

Theres plenty... his attitude towards women... His doctrine of Grace... The fact that he never met Jesus, or taught barely any of his lessons... He was a known liar before he changed his name, and spoke out against christians sending many to their death before he changed his name... and admitted doing so

Shall i go on?

You are free to believe there is no conflict between the two... but i will never agree...

I have been studying this subject for a few hours now and I was determined to get to the bottom of it.

I am now convinced that this whole issue revolves around the fact that Paul used to be one of "them".

He used to be a part of the "elite" and he turned against them and exposed them for what they are.

Throughout history anyone who has done this has been attacked and mercylessly killed just like all others that have exposed the TPTB, the money changers, and the Illuminati.

Illuminati whistle blowers such as Jesus, JFK, Lincoln etc have been silenced since the beginning of history. EVERY person who has the ability to change the world...is murdered....coincidence?

I think NOT...

The article quoted below confirmed this for me:

"Please be aware of the anti-Paul movement, it was set up by the foe (today's Edomites) to fordo (destroy) the Israel Insight.

This movement twists what Paul says in order to make him look like a huckster but who are the hucksters in this world? The Jewish Encyclopedia and other jewish writings makes makes it clear that one of the greatest of the foes for Judaism is Paul. The jews spew hatred upon Paul.

“Needless to say, observant Jews objected to Paul, ... whom they saw as the worst kind of heretic. Indeed, because of Jewish complaints against him, Paul was arrested by the Roman authorities, held for a time under house arrest, and finally executed in or around 67 CE (the year of the start of the Great Revolt against Rome in Israel.)” ~ Rabbi Ken Spiro

• To be Anti-Paul is to tear the living heart out of the New Testament.

• To be Anti Paul opens up a Pandora’s Box among people as to what is inspired in the Bible and what is not. The Canon is a sacred Ark, man’s unsanctified hands are not to touch it. Will this foolishness never end? QUESTIONING GOD’S WORD DENOTES UNBELIEF!

• To be Anti-Paul lays that person open to the full force of Rationalism, Modernism, and “doubt” far worse than any NEO-ORTHODOXY ever dreamed of!

• To be Anti-Paul is an outright denial of the Providence of God in settling and arranging the Canon of Scripture as we know it. Of this Scripture the God of Israel is most jealous! The whole question is: MAN’S MOUTH versus GOD’S WORD!

The Anti-Paul Movement is Jewish

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Well, there's no support for that claim in scripture and it especially makes no sense in those instances where Jesus is interacting with God the Father. On the other hand, that's not a "Christian blog site", as they are clearly anti-Trinitarians, which makes them something other than Christians.

So you're saying ONLY trinitarians are Christian?

Yep. Not much point in following Christ if you don't think he was divine -- the platitudes that non-Christians cite as being the reason that they respect him as a "great teacher" are run of the mill pleasantries that pretty much any moral teacher promotes.

And lets not forget the "trinity" was added 300+ years after the fact...

No, the Doctrine of the Trinity was developed 300+ years after the fact, in an effort to explain why the earliest of Christians worshipped Christ as God. The Trinity existed for a while before Christ was born

Well let me ask you... IF a self proclaimed liar, and murderer tried to sell you something... would you buy it?

It depends on what he's selling and what, if any, the relevance of lying and murdering to that product was. If he was selling me a book on "How Not to Get Murdered", that might be a useful background, lol.

Paul is not consistant with Jesus, and his doctrine of "grace" was not taught by him either...

Well, we've already gone through the "consistent" thing, let's not re-open that old wound. So what is it about Paul's view of Grace that you don't like, and how is it inconsistent with Christ's teachings? Do you think that we need to adhere to Jewish Law in order to be saved? If so, what was the point of Jesus?

Theres plenty... his attitude towards women... His doctrine of Grace... The fact that he never met Jesus, or taught barely any of his lessons... He was a known liar before he changed his name, and spoke out against christians sending many to their death before he changed his name... and admitted doing so

Well, I'm not a fan of some of the things that he says about women in general, either, though he also says some pretty nice things about specific women, so maybe we can set the generalities aside as being a product of his time. He "met" Jesus as best he could, on the Road to Damascus, given that Christ was long ascended to heaven. He certainly met him better than any of us can claim

As for his crimes as Saul... do you not believe in repentance?

reply to post by adjensen

Yep. Not much point in following Christ if you don't think he was divine

Who said he wasn't "divine"? To deny that is to deny what HE said...

I said he wasn't God...

Gods son can not be "dvine" in his own right?

No, the Doctrine of the Trinity was developed 300+ years after the fact, in an effort to explain why the earliest of Christians worshipped Christ as God. The Trinity existed for a while before Christ was born

The word "trinity" does not exist in any original texts... and the idea was not taught by Jesus...

It depends on what he's selling and what, if any, the relevance of lying and murdering to that product was. If he was selling me a book on "How Not to Get Murdered", that might be a useful background, lol.

Im sure the local prisons in your area have visitation rights...

So what is it about Paul's view of Grace that you don't like, and how is it inconsistent with Christ's teachings?

Try to find the word "grace" in the gospels... and see how its used...

Jesus didn't even mention the word

And i've found the whole "grace" idea leads people to believe that no matter what they do they will be forgiven, as long as they "repent"... I do not believe this is truth...

Have you read this?

Blasphemy... more then you think...

Do you think that we need to adhere to Jewish Law in order to be saved? If so, what was the point of Jesus?

Or this...

Christian?

do you not believe in repentance?

I do not believe repentance helps for all sins... such as Murder & Rape and other such attrocities...

Some Karma can not be resolved in this life time...

Originally posted by WiseThinker
I have read Paul teachings that are directly Satanic (Not evil, not luciferian, Satanic).

He claimed that people themselves are God hmhmhmhm.

Namaste.

Jesus said that people themselves are gods

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Yep. Not much point in following Christ if you don't think he was divine

Who said he wasn't "divine"? To deny that is to deny what HE said...

I said he wasn't God...

Gods son can not be "dvine" in his own right?

Not within the confines of Judaism, no.

The word "trinity" does not exist in any original texts... and the idea was not taught by Jesus...

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19 NIV)

Why baptize them in the name of three if only one of them was God?

And i've found the whole "grace" idea leads people to believe that no matter what they do they will be forgiven, as long as they "repent"... I do not believe this is truth...

Well, you're wrong. Or maybe you don't understand what "repent" means... it doesn't mean "oops, forgive me and I'll run out and do it again."

Have you read this?

Blasphemy... more then you think...

No, and in glancing it over, as I don't believe in karma and reincarnation, which I see as logically impossible, there's likely no reason for me to read it.

Do you think that we need to adhere to Jewish Law in order to be saved? If so, what was the point of Jesus?

Or this...

Christian?

I don't see anything in that OP that is relevant to the question that I asked. Do you mind answering it directly?

So, is one of your problems with Paul that you believe in reincarnation and he refuted it?

Originally posted by bowtomonkey

Originally posted by WiseThinker
I have read Paul teachings that are directly Satanic (Not evil, not luciferian, Satanic).

He claimed that people themselves are God hmhmhmhm.

Namaste.

Jesus said that people themselves are gods

You are right there my friend:

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' Psalm 82:6


Jesus replied, "It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, 'I say, you are gods!' John 10:34

But we must get it in context. That we must decipher for ourselves. Jesus was quoting from Psalm 82 when He said that. For my own part that means trying to live up to the example set by Jesus. That's plenty humiliating as it is an impossible task for us. We are all sinners and we all need to be helped. We inherited original sin. Jesus is The Way out of that darkness and into light.

reply to post by Akragon


Just one point. You write that one cannot be forgiven for murder and rape. Yet how is it that Moses murdered an Egyptian and Paul held the coats of those who murdered Stephen??? Yet these men became two of the most important men in Scripture.

I already wrote that in an earlier comment and I feel sad that you have not taken any interest in reading my contributions to this thread nor made any attempt to include me?

reply to post by Revolution9


Im sorry my friend i had nothing to add to your previous reply... plus i don't deal with Revelation...

I gave you a star right after you posted it though...

Just one point. You write that one cannot be forgiven for murder and rape. Yet how is it that Moses murdered an Egyptian and Paul held the coats of those who murdered Stephen??? Yet these men became two of the most important men in Scripture.

Joshua was a military genius, and likely responsible for the death of thousands by his own hand... and he got a whole book dedicated to him.

Moses was too by the way...

reply to post by adjensen

Not within the confines of Judaism, no

So the son of God in confined to a label...

Interesting...

Why baptize them in the name of three if only one of them was God?

Why say there is only one God if there are three?

Or three in one?

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord

Well, you're wrong. Or maybe you don't understand what "repent" means... it doesn't mean "oops, forgive me and I'll run out and do it again."

Thats your opinion...

And why is it always about me?

He said to the adulterer Go and do not sin again... did he not?

:shk:

No, and in glancing it over, as I don't believe in karma and reincarnation, which I see as logically impossible, there's likely no reason for me to read it.

And that is your perogative... no one is forcing you to read or listen to what i say...

Do you mind answering it directly?

Sure... Saved from what exactly?

So, is one of your problems with Paul that you believe in reincarnation and he refuted it?

Please feel free to cite the passage...