Why Haven't You Enlisted?

WOW! Nicely done.... It is funny as most of the time patriots would not have to be drafted, but them kicking and screaming peacenicks and concscience objectors, they will make fine drafted cannon fodder

Just to set the record straight:

I applied for the Army, but was rejected on medical grounds (playing rugby since the age of 8 did wonders for my knees!)
My dad served 25 yrs in REME (received commendations for his work in NI and germany)
My Uncle is 30 yrs and running in the RAF, a wing commander now at the Joint HQ
Aunt and Uncle served and met in the RAF for 10yrs
Another Uncle served 22 years in the Army (also received bravery award from the Queen for saving two of his colleagues from a homicidal Sgt with a rifle)
My grandad served in the Army before and during WW2, was part of the BEF and was at Dunkirk and D-day, and stayed on to fight in korea.

Plus multiple other long dead family memebers going back 200 years served in the Armed forces of Her Majesty.

So don't question ones loyalty to ones country just beacause we do not support a false war based on lies. There is defending ones country which we all will willingly do, but taking part in the destruction and slaughter of another country, on the opposite side of the world, that wasn't a threat to anyone bar a paranoidal, evangelical nutcase in the whitehouse is wrong and will get no support from me or my family, or for that matter, the majority of the UK population.

My story's the same as Stumason's. I did, in fact, attempt to enlist in the Navy during the Vietnam war. I was rejected because they identified a ventricular fibrillaiton (the same condition that killed my mother and grandmother.)

My family's miltary: dad retired from the Army, mom was a Navy WAVE, my brother is in the Army, one nephew is in the Army, my son is ex-Navy, and of my Other Kids, two are ex-Army. Dad won the Bronze Star (back when it meant something) for battlefield heroics. Brother has several Bronze Stars, nephew also (though nowadays they're given to whole companies as a sort of "good job" medal.)

I think that Stumason spoke for a lot of us when he said:

So don't question ones loyalty to ones country just beacause we do not support a false war based on lies. There is defending ones country which we all will willingly do, but taking part in the destruction and slaughter of another country, on the opposite side of the world, that wasn't a threat to anyone bar a paranoidal, evangelical nutcase in the whitehouse is wrong and will get no support from me or my family, or for that matter, the majority of the UK population.

I supported action against Al Qaida. I do not support the action against Iraq.

What an asinine question. That's like saying, "Cancer kills millions a year, why haven't you beome a doctor?"

Maybe people don't enlist because they really don't trust the government to send them "to fight for liberty". Maybe they'll send them to a place like Iraq!

Fighting the feeling of terror just isn't accomplished by putting on a uniform.

EDIT: I can think of 5 reasons why Cheney didn't.

[edit on 10-10-2004 by curme]

Originally posted by ANOK
I mean no disrespect for the brave men who faught in WWII, but a lot of ppl enlisted then because they were dirt poor, and it was a chance for them to get away from the poverty of the depression.
And they knew who the enemy was and why.

Depression era hardship may have gotten them to join and every assesment must include this social variable, but it does not explain why they trained and fought as they did. If they were just looking for three hots and a cot, they could not have liberated the world from the tyranny of global facist imperialism.

You know your getting old when you can look at a chest full of ribbons and not know what most of them are.



Lets see. You have, I think, the NUC, NGC, DSCM, a victory medal(?), some Kuwaiti and Saudi medals and and E ribbon. You were a sailor. Am I close?

Why should I fight? Bush never fought, Cheney never fought, hell, the only republican who has fought was McCain, and he has to be the most liberal republican out there.

I love that, don't you? Republicans support war, Democrats are against war. Democrats fight in wars, Republicans hide and use daddies money to stay out of war.

"Invade! War! Kill! What? me serve? But I am rich, why would I serve? Kill! Invade! War!" Republican

"Peace! Diplomacy! Talk! What? That didn't work?(or republicans in power said they would talk, but said who cares and invaded anyways) Well, let me go get my boots on and get ready to fight...." Democrat Yeah, any of the republicans in power actually fight in a war?(Except Powell, he was a great man, but Bush&Co ruined his name)

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Why should I fight?

The military doesn't need your brand of homo sapiens. Bush served in the AirNG and honorably so, despite what the lunatic left likes to assert.

Let's see. Kerry served in Vietnam got decorated up the wazoo, came home and threw something he said were his medals at the Capitol and then proceeded to brand every Vietnam veteran a war criminal, while admitting that he was a war criminal.

Let me see. AirNG Jet Jockey. War Criminal. AirNG Jet Jockey. War Criminal.

I'll take the Jet Jockey.



[edit on 04/10/10 by GradyPhilpott]

All this coming from Grady, the war criminal?

First off, if everybody was off fighting in war, what the hell would we be defending, a barren land?

Secondly, I don't understand how you equate an attack on our soil with fighting for freedom, that just sounds like one of those Bush cliches.

You want freedom, embrace what you have, we don't need the Patriot Act to tell us that amending the constitution will make us free. There are many fronts to fighting for freedom, and the way I see it, they mostly start from home and not against some looney tunes in Iraq.

I have to admit, I was almost ready to enlist after 9/11. But I was still in high school, and when I graduated the main battles of Afghanistan were over. So, I thought we got those responsible for 9/11, that's great. Then Iraq happened, and that's when my tune changed, that's when I absolutely started despising those who would send us to war there. That came from totally out of left field.

That's why I haven't enlisted, because of Iraq, and our government at large. There's no way they are going to make me believe fighting in Iraq equates with America's freedom.

[edit on 10-10-2004 by Jamuhn]

I have not enlisted because I refuse to do anything until I graduate college, that comes first!

I am not against working in the military, in fact I am looking at several careers in various branches. I think it would be interesting to serve. I could be just as happy writing for Vogue as I could be writing for the Stars and Stripes.

However, I would like to note that Bush is the reason I didn't go to the Naval Academy.

Way to generalize james the lesser.

I'm a Republican and so is my entire family, and guess what, most of them have fought in wars. Once I am of age I will enlist, and if I cant, then I will still be ready to fight if drafted.

This is a war against oppression, against terrorism-- worldwide. You damn well better support the war and your country.

[edit on 10-10-2004 by omega1]

This is a war against oppression, against terrorism-- worldwide. You damn well better support the war and your country.

Why? The war has created more oppression and terrorism, not less! Why should you blindly do as you "leaders" tell you? Can you not see that they lied and this "War" is as false as Hitlers?

He was telling his people he was re-uniting the germans, and was making germany stronger, but doesn't actually mean it was true just because he said it does it?

I enlisted as well. I did 7 years in the Navy and it was the best experience of my life. I was honorably discharged (the certificate hangs on my wall next to my BA degree). Despite not being able to re-enlist due to a heart condition, I took a job as a government contractor and still feel I am serving the nation even though I no longer wear a uniform.

Good luck fighting "terror", omega1. Do you know who to be on the look out for? The evil towel wearing arab in sandals right? The one that comes from....well...lets just say "The middle east" for now, eh.

The last time I checked the war was on terror, bin-laden, Al-queda and Taliban, and taking in consideration that most of the terrorists that committed the atrocities on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia I guess we are in the wrong country fighting.

Why should our young join the government to die in a country that did not declared war on US?

Sorry Grady, the first gulf "conflict" was a combined effort by UN to liberated a small country from an invader.

Whatever we are doing now, "I truly don't even know what in the heck our government is doing any more" is not a war is an invasion on a country just like Sadam did to Kuwait funny.

Sadam invaded Kuwait for the oil and US is now in Iraq for the same reason.

The irony of it is just hilarious.

I think Iraq went after Kuwait because Kuwait was slant drilling into Iraq land and they would not stop. Whether this justifies war on the Iraq part or the US intervention?

Quick answer:

Because I don't want to die slowly in some godforsaken desert, holding in my intestines, because some politicians have decided that Iraq is part of the war on terror.

People who righteously beat their chests and scream "why haven't you enlisted" would have alot more moral authority if that whole Iraq quagmire wasn't happening and we were fighting an effective anti-terror operation. But then, I suppose there wouldn't be any need for them to do so since we wouldn't be overstretched and running out of manpower and supplies.

Besides, there's plenty of people who actually believe enlisting will stop terrorism. There's plenty of people who believe being fodder in Iraq will stop someone from sneaking a dirty bomb into New York City. There's plenty of people that think we can beat terruh with military force. Let them go.

I'm not going to give up my education, my life, or more likely, my limbs because of a rash, emotional decision.

****
Please send all outraged complaints to [email protected]

Grady, I did enlist, and now I know just about every reason there is for a person -not- to enlist. I have a certain pride in the choice i made and the things I've accomplished, but I for one have been relieved of certain foolish notions which you have apparently defended in your own mind even through greater trials than I have seen. I won't say, as some would, that your choice betrays weakness and dependence in an individual, but I will say that it illustrates a fundamental difference between two schools of thought, neither of which has any absolute justification in denouncing the other.
Let me share (in paraphrase) a sentiment from the writer of Starship Troopers. If a government's own citizens won't defend it by choice, let the dang thing die.
Let me also share the wisdom of Irwin Rommel, "If we judged every man by his qualities as a solider we would have no civilization".

The moral is that we have no obligation to fight. We have a right, by some reasoning perhaps a duty, to make decisions on our individual values and interests. If we acted always out of an unquestioning sense of duty, we could never really be free. Where and when does duty cease? When the defense of national interests is secured? But then where does defense end and advancement begin? That's really irrelevant of course, sense a duty-bound mind won't ask the question.


Now, as I've alluded to, here are the reasons not to enlist:
1. As revealed by the 1994 report compiled by Sen. John D. Rockerfeller, the department of defense has experimented on servicemen not only with drugs, treatments, and vaccines, but with illegal narcotics as well as nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. These experiments have been conducted in clear violation of both international and US law relating to informed consent. Men who have been killed or permanently injured as a result have often taken decades to be compensated or treated, if they were compensated or treated at all.

2. As a member of a military force, you will particpate, directly or indirectly, in the killing of human beings with no personal discretion as to the morality of the individual case. If your moral beliefs do not allow you to kill on command, regardless of the situation, you must be prepared to compromise before joining the military.

3. As a member of a military force, the performance of your job is the paramount concern in your life. Your spouse, children, and any other important factors in your life must be able to carry on without you for long periods of time, and if the worst should happen, forever. It is quite telling that the military has attempted (and is expected to eventually succeed) at forbidding marriage during the first 4 years of service.

4. The standards of physical and intellectual readiness, especially for infantrymen, are far below what they ought to be. You must be prepared to be placed in situations you are not fit to deal with, or to be in situations where many of the people you depend on are not fit to support you. You should also expect to get screwed over by your buddies. I learned the hard way that there is a second version of the Marine Corps motto: Semper "I"- Screw the other guy.


These are just a few reasons, and frankly they rule out most of the population. I was a Marine, and i've met a lot of Marines, and I've only met two kinds of people who can thrive in that organization: 1.Sick people who hate life and enjoy destruction. 2. Unshakable idealists of superb physical and mental abilities. The first is far more common than the second.

Now go ahead Grady, go off on me because I'm not an idealist. I call em like I see em- I'm refuse to be ignorant either of our strengths or our weaknesses. I've advocated the Corps as much as I've bashed it- in this case i'm bashing it because your question ignores many obvious aspects of military service.

Originally posted by curme
EDIT: I can think of 5 reasons why Cheney didn't.

Just a side note - Kerry requested deferment to go to school
overseas. He was denied deferment. So he then signed up
because he had no choice (except to go to Canada). Kerry
didn't really volunteer to go to Vietnam. He tried to get out
of it just the way that Cheney did ... but Kerry wasn't able to.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Just a side note - Kerry requested deferment to go to school
overseas. He was denied deferment. So he then signed up
because he had no choice (except to go to Canada). Kerry
didn't really volunteer to go to Vietnam. He tried to get out
of it just the way that Cheney did ... but Kerry wasn't able to.

Well well well, I didnt know this, I did know that he signed on for a non-combat position and it was changed to a combat one 6 weeks after he signed up. He made it home pretty quick though.......










[edit on 10-10-2004 by edsinger]

[edit on 10-10-2004 by edsinger]

I already have served my time. Would that our country had a real crisis and a real war, Id re-enlist in a heartbeat.

But just like the nightmare of the Clinton years, where we were sent to babysit a bunch of morons, overextending ourselves, I am yet to see a truly legitamte war that has my country's best interest at heart.

I almost re-enlisted after 9/11, because I thought finally we were gonna show the damn Saudi's they stepped over the line. But as this whole war progressed into a bunch of BS, when terrorism lost its focus for the war, I decided, nope. I aint fighting so that george, Dick, and Donald can fatten their portfolios.

Since this whole new spin on the war on terror has nothing to do with liberty, and more to do with MONEY......I'll pass.

Call me up when there is a conflict that doesn't involve the words Cheney, Oil, Haliburton, and false intelligence. Then I'll gladly join the cause, pick up a weapon, and blow away our real enemies.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Why haven't you enlisted?

I'm a little old now in my sixth decade and having served my six year obligation and serving a "tour of duty" at the same time as the illustrious Mr. Kerry, though with considerably less fanfare and far more serious wounds.

When Pearl Harbor was bombed, most people had never heard of Pearl Harbor. Yet men stood in line for hours to sign up. These men stormed the beaches of Normandy, Anzio, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima and Bougainville. They fought in North Africa, France, Brussels, and Italy. They liberated Paris, Sicily, Manila, and Auschwitz. They fought in sub-zero temperatures at the Battle of the Bulge, in the steaming hot jungles of the South Pacific and the dry, suffocating heat of the Sahara.

The stench from the dead on the islands of the Pacific was so bad that pilots flying over were said to become sick from the smell. Rotting bodies were everywhere and men would lose their footing in the mud and slide down a hill onto a mass of rotting flesh and maggots. They ate their meals sitting on top of the dead to stay out of the mud. They exchange their wet uniforms with the dry uniforms on the dead. They saw heavy combat for week and months on end.

Today, we all know of New York. We saw the towers burn and collapse and about the only response we can get is, "Do you think they will reinstitute the draft?

[edit on 04/10/10 by GradyPhilpott]

damn, that sounds like fun. you make it so attractive, i think i just might run out and volunteer my carcass.
have you ever looked into the financial family tree, ie. i.g. farben/bush/ford/krupp/carnegie etc? if so, how can you still believe that ALL wars are not just a way to make markets by breaking stuff(problem), putting people out of work and home(reaction), and rebuilding infrastructure(solution).
don't join the army, just so the elite rich can keep their place. freedom is an illusion. we are not free. don't pay your income tax, drive, hunt, build, without a license and see just how free you are. try and protest any bush assembly using your 'right of free speech', and 'right to public assembly'.
you are free, as long as you stay in your pen.

what a crock war is.