OT vs NT vs Homosexuality vs Common Sense...

I think, with all things considered, I'm still confused about the flaw in logic that mainstream Christianity stands behind. There is an ultimate paradox that I see Christians paint themselves into a corner with virtually every time the subject of homosexuality comes up. In this context, I use term "Christian" as people who hold this position, not the reasonable ones.

So here's where I'm confused. The following is a paraphrase of just about every debate I hear on the subject:

Basic Argument #1 - (Mainstream Christian = "MC" and Marriage Equality proponent = "ME"

MC: Gays should not be allowed to marry.
ME: Why?
MC: God says so. In Leviticus.
ME: But next to those verses in Leviticus, God also says it's okay to sell slaves and stone children who talk back.
MC: Yeah, but Jesus fulfilled all of those laws so we don't need to follow the Old Testament.
ME: But... you just cited the Old Testament to defend your suppression of gay rights...
MC: Homos are gross.
ME: ...

Ok, that is where I get stuck in their paradox. Either the OT is something to be followed or it is not. Which is it?

Basic Argument #2 -

MC: Gays should not be allowed to get married.
ME: Why?
MC: Because it will redefine marriage and infringe on my religion.
ME: But marriage wasn't invented by God... it predates Christianity and even Judaism.
MC: But God defined it as it is now.
ME: No, he didn't. Marriage has always been a bond between two people and people like to sometimes incorporate their religion into their ceremonies. People were getting married for at least as far back as Hammurabi's code.
MC: But if gays can get married, it will infringe on my religion.
ME: ...

Ok... I think this one is self-explanatory. Many seem to be under the illusion that "marriage" did not exist until the bible said so. This is simply not even close to true. Marriage and religion are completely independent of each other.

So, in short, what I would like to have explained to me by a person holding the position of inequality based on the bible is this:

- Which testament is right? If your intolerance comes from the OT, then why do you dismiss the rest of it?

- How will two dudes or chicks getting married possibly affect your faith? Nobody is asking you to make your priests and ministers to marry gay folks in your church. You do not hold the monopoly on marriage and, believe it or not, you don't have to have a "christian" wedding in order to get married. In fact, your church really has nothing to do with officiating even your own marriages. It's a state contract. Called MARRIAGE. Not "civil union".

Now I'm begging you to not turn this into the average ATS "homophobe vs reasonable person" debate. I seriously want logical answers to my two questions. Thanks.

I could list all the verses but heres a sampling from the NT.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:19
Ephesians 5:3-7
1 Timothy 1:10
Jude 1:4

Now heres the part MOST christians miss...

It lists Homosexuals, with Fornicators (sex before marriage), Adulterers (cheaters), Crooks, Drunks...

And many other sins...

the WAGES OF ALL SIN is death, not just being "Gay"

Looking at my fellow man with Hate in my eye is according to Jesus the same as MURDER.

ALL sin is bad, And all sin can be forgiven.

You just get Fundamentalist banging this one drum making all of Christianity look like hate mongers.

You didn't wait till marriage to have sex? guess what the bible says your as bad as a Homosexual, Look in the sin in your eye before you remove the one from your brothers.

In my opinion, the fictional Adam and Eve weren't even married. They had no other choice but to cohabit or "shack-up" because they were the only ones. Kinda like being the only surviving people after a cataclysmic disaster, with a duty to procreate.

There was no engagement, no respectful dowry provided or goats and asses given to the bride's father, because there was no family to respect. Marriage is a contract that is willingly made and observed by the families and social circles of their immediate environment.

A couple who falls in love, against their parents wishes and elopes, are more married than the fictional examples of the first marriage, Adam and Eve, were. There is nothing religiously sacred about forced procreation.

Originally posted by benrl

Now heres the part MOST christians miss...

It lists Homosexuals, with Fornicators (sex before marriage), Adulterers (cheaters), Crooks, Drunks...

And many other sins...

the WAGES OF ALL SIN is death, not just being "Gay"

I think that's why you never hear it being brought up much. It's the same paradox. The OT can be ignored except for the homosexual part and the NT can be acknowledged except for the parts that apply to the Christian's own sins.

And before King James version came out, that wasn't exactly read the same. At least, it's the only reason I can think of that there were actual same-sex weddings performed by the Christian church. Holy Gay Marriage, Batman!

reply to post by Cuervo


i think anyone should be able to get married, it doesn't effect anyone else.


a gay couple is not going to jump into your bed when your sleeping and...


lol..

if two people love each other, they should be able to get married if they want to.




now on marriage:

i hate it. marriage is stupid in my opinion because if you really love someone and that someone really loves you, a piece of paper saying "you officially got married" is a great insult to a beautiful thing, simply called love.


when you love someone, you stick together.

a piece of paper, is for bathroom duties.


peace.

Isn't there something in the Constitution or Bill of Rights regarding the separation of religion and state? If so, marriage shouldn't even be recognised beyond civil matters.

reply to post by Cuervo


No its a missunderstanding of doctrine and theology.

The "christian" view of the OT, is that the laws are sooooo crazy, to show that NO ONE can follow all of them.

The point being we all are sinners.

And if you watch Jesus interact with the "holy" men of his time he holds the most disgust with the "holier than thou" people of the time...

You know the ones who follow the letter of the laws and not the spirit behind it.

And you get denominations now days that still follow the OT laws for certain things and not others.

You have the 7th day Adventist worshiping on the sabbath

Or Jehovah witness following the OT blood rules...

You have tons of Denominations all fractured following rules they really arn't supposed to.

BUT the NT is clear, we ALL are sinners, WE ALL deserve death, we all in our darkest moments are capable of evil.

That was the point of all the ridiculous laws.

Fast forward 2000 years and you still have the Holier than THou people, and guess what, Jesus would just be as ashamed of them as he was of the Jewish teachers of the time.

Why arent the Westborro Aholes sitting outside "make out" point with signs saying god hates "fornicators"?

Why? because it wont get them press.

The sad truth is their are no "acts" churches that exist today, they all have fallen to some degree.

If Christians focused on cleaning their own house and not others we wouldn't have this problem.

You won't have many of those Christians in here defending their opinions.

Quoting the other aspects of their religious text that they selectively ignore, and mentioning the historical record of same-sex marriage under Christianity, are both Kryptonite to those people.

These things expose their blatant homophobia. It has nothing to do with their religious conviction of beliefs, it has everything to do with ignorance, hatred and the desire to control other people and force their beliefs onto others.

If a homophobic Christian does come in to try to answer this OP their head will explode.

As I've said before, you can't understand Christianity from a secular point of view. You have to understand it from a biblical point of view, and a Christian perspective.

To say marriage pre-dates Christianity or Judaism is a moot point to a Christian. Since from their perspective, their God created the heavens, the earth, and the people on the earth. And since Adam not only named "woman", for all intents and purposes, he also performed the first marriage ceremony. His own.
Gen 2:23

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

The bible is very clear in both Old and New testaments, that the Christian God finds Homosexuality an abomination. It is a perversion of his creation, and the order of things he established. No amount of wrangling with words and semantics is going to change that. Ever. It isn't up to Christians to decide whether it is OK or not. God has spoken, and that's that.

So we all have a choice. Either follow what the bible says, or don't.

I think that we can all agree that God is love, i don't have a problem with people being themselves. I do think that God has a problem with hatred and self righteousness. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

I think Gay people should be allowed to marry who they want.

Why should they not have to endure a marriage?

Be careful what you wish for...

Originally posted by Klassified
It isn't up to Christians to decide whether it is OK or not. God has spoken, and that's that.

So we all have a choice. Either follow what the bible says, or don't.

But only some of it, right?

And you brought up an interesting point. Christians often believe their religion is as old as events that take place in their myths. It is not.

reply to post by Cuervo

What they believe is that the same God, is God of all, and always has been. Christianity is not a new religion, it is a new covenant. This is where non-Christians get confused. The old covenant was fulfilled, and a new covenant established. So there is no break in continuity from the day Adam was created till now. The only difference is the covenant God has established with them.

Religious types that are against marriage equality, seem to be incapable of seeing beyond their church programming, which is quite unfortunate for the bible. As a great book, it deserves to be read with an open mind.

Originally posted by Klassified
As I've said before, you can't understand Christianity from a secular point of view. You have to understand it from a biblical point of view, and a Christian perspective.

To say marriage pre-dates Christianity or Judaism is a moot point to a Christian. Since from their perspective, their God created the heavens, the earth, and the people on the earth.

That is absolutely disgusting. I can't believe there are people who will ignore the proof and still choose to believe in something not true. If there is a god, this should be like, an ultimate sin or something Have the absolute ARROGANCE to toss away REALITY just to justify your FALSE belief.

If god is truth? Why do so many not seek it? Why are so many choosing to toss away reality to believe in LIES, and I am not talking about faith here...

There is a difference between having "faith" in something, believing even when the evidence isn't that, and "delusion" choosing to believe in something even when it is proven to be false...

You make great points and as such it will see no attention.

We all know that religion has to die for this very reason.

reply to post by arpgme

I understand what you are saying, I think. But from their perspective, the bible IS the word of God. Period. Anytime "reality" and the bible clash, the bible always wins. It isn't debatable(At least not for the fundamentalist sect). To argue with what it says, is to argue with God himself.

reply to post by benrl


Yes!!!! Thank you!!!! Finally some common sense!

reply to post by detachedindividual

You won't have many of those Christians in here defending their opinions.

Right here, read my post, my head didn't explode...

And Ill say it, I believe it is a sin but that's just my opinion , but no more of one than say me getting upset when someone cuts me off on the free way and I cuss them out.

I don't fear or hate homosexuals, I'm Actually for everyone who is NOT religious getting Civil unions.

Marriage has "religious" origins, and should fall under separation from church and state, if you want the government tax break you go to the government.

If you want to be married in a church you go to religion, and as there are plenty of Religions that recognize Same sex marriages (christian ones as well) than you go there.


no fuss no muss, no divisive BS we get seen thrown about by all sides of the argument.

Originally posted by benrl

Right here, read my post, my head didn't explode...

And Ill say it, I believe it is a sin but that's just my opinion , but no more of one than say me getting upset when someone cuts me off on the free way and I cuss them out.

Yeah... but you to admit, you aren't exactly like the typical Christian that most people encounter or are represented in the media. Your spiritual development is a bit more advanced than your average contemporaries.