A real life example of why it IS possible for the Government to keep secrets, even when 70,000 peopl

reply to post by ProfEmeritus
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They were Good little Citizens , believed there govt. and Didn't ask questions.. I do not think I could have been kept there and not been a problem. EVER !!!

We also gave up space exploration, sad.

WE didn't give up space exploration.. we gave up the pretence of Exploring Space for show. I am sure we are already IN SPACE.. we just don't need to go wasting our time on an outdated way of getting there. I THINK we have other ways that are being use. Entire fleets going anywhere they want to..

They were Good little Citizens , believed there govt. and Didn't ask questions.

reply to post by hollwd


Very true. Back then, nobody questioned the government. That includes the MSM, which took everything that the government said, at face value. A perfect example was the Roswell Incident. Once the government "corrected" the report, to say that it was only a "weather balloon", the MSM dutifully reported that, and completely dropped the subject. The fact that a skilled military officer that knew very well what a weather balloon looked like (because he dealt with them) reported something entirely different, was just ignored, tells you how complicit the MSM was in going along with whatever the government said. Times are different now.

Originally posted by NuclearPaul
reply to post by ProfEmeritus

 

It's actually incredibly easy to keep a large amount of people from talking about something. As long as they've got a lot to lose if they do so.

Especially "successful" people (who are deeply in debt). Even without having them sign agreements to keep their mouths shut (or else), the idea of losing their job (and having their lives completely destroyed) is more than enough to manipulate people into keeping their mouths shut.

That may be true in the civilian sector, but in the military being in debt is a real fast way to lose your security clearance. People who are in debt have reason to sell out to the lowest bidder. Selling state secrets is a fast way to make big money.

I have known several persons who have lost their TS/SCI clearance due to debt issues, and what is really scary is that they lost their clearance before the debt was ever posted to any of the three major credit monitors (US)...

FTITK: DE;VECTOR420;TACLANE-175

People who are in debt have reason to sell out to the lowest bidder.

reply to post by mileysubet

Doing so would mean a lot more than making some money. Treason is punishable by DEATH. Ask Julius and Ethel Rosenberg's ghosts.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
I would say it has everything to do with something that is almost impossible for modern America to imagine. Losing World War II wasn't an outlandish theory when Oak Ridge was conceived, it was a real possibility. In fact, it was very likely to be the outcome if the Manhattan Project had failed and the German version hadn't been sabotaged from within. After the end of the war, it was a matter of really not wanting to have to learn to speak Russian. It's an easy language to learn..but sounds so...foreign.

Those were the days when men were men and Americans could see the need some things needed to remain secret. The Rosenberg's also served quite a nice lesson for those who didn't see simple patriotism as sufficient reason to keep one's secrets to themselves. bzzz...

This is confusing since the project was conceived before the war started and we were not at war with anyone, in fact, we have been duped into participating in every war since 1900 via the false flag and threats of an invasion that was never going to happen. I would suggest that our beef with Japan was totally manufactured via the embargo so we could drop the bomb there - the only place it would explode as to explode a nuke you need a specific set of factors to be in place, sun, magnetic field etc. Japan was going to be it.


The key competent to making the system work is not the hiding, but the noble and willfully ignorant people who put forth a story that works well with the plan. In colleges around the country the professors were teaching real science - scientific fact! That fact told each brilliant mind of the time that a nuke was NOT possible no matter what. Students that showed promise in resisting the dogma became part of the project but the rest went home telling their family that no such thing was possible. So it was easy to keep the project hidden because the world was busy saying this could not happen.

My favorite quote from the event, when asked if it was the first time a nuke was used on earth, Teller replied "in modern times, yes." Chew on that.

Great thread! Thanks for posting. I have been to Oak Ridge a few times and never knew about this. Don't they still have a Nuclear Plant there?

Don't they still have a Nuclear Plant there?

reply to post by XxCanexX

In fact, Oak Ridge has a nuclear weapons plant, and is the largest DOE research facility in the US. Although the DOE tries to promote the purpose of Oak Ridge, as a center for "peaceful" purposes, the reality is that this center still has a dual purpose, industrial and military.
Thanks for bringing that up. I should have mentioned that earlier.

Originally posted by Submarines
There is a HUGE difference with the people the and the people of today.

Back then, people cared about their country before themselves. They were honorable. Back then a promise meant something, no matter who it was given to.

Today, people care for themselves only. Most don't look to the big picture of what goes on around them. The mind set is almost always "Whats in it for me." People are alos interested in getting the 15 minutes of fame.

Unfortunatly most today are selfish A holes. In my opinion.

That is why 70,000 can back then can keep a secret, and today it seems no one can.

While i agree with you, i believe that we are this way by no fault of our own. Big Business has been allowed to tap into our personal lives. Drug manufacturers create medicine that do more harm than good. The media feeds us lies. And over the past 60-70 years all of these things are becoming more obvious to people, so in defense, we become selfish, more untrustworthy. and less likely to believe someone's promise. It's made us jaded, greedy, and vulgar.

And over the past 60-70 years all of these things are becoming more obvious to people, so in defense, we become selfish, more untrustworthy. and less likely to believe someone's promise. It's made us jaded, greedy, and vulgar.

reply to post by ilikestarz

That is true.I think the 24 by 7 cable news has contributed greatly to the problem. Back in the 1950's and 1960's TV news consisted of a half hour at 6:00 pm, and half and hour at 11:00pm.
Now that there are 24 hour news networks, they have to fill that time, so they can do more "in-depth" coverage, which means yellow journalism, in my opinion.
JFK had many extra-marital affairs, but news broadcasters then were very reluctant to cover such items. Today, they LOOK for items like that.

I think most conspiracies only begin after events have naturally developed to a certain point. Influential people or groups, keeping a keen eye on events, see an opportunity in an emerging trend and steer it the last few yards to a conclusion. I don't think there's usually any need to cover up the entire genesis of a conspiracy because most of it was undertaken by other people, incognito or otherwise.

For those projects which are instigated from the outset with a hidden final outcome, then compartmentalizing is a useful tool. But these tend to be the type of projects which are not hidden for fear of majority disapproval but for fear that an enemy will disrupt it - atom bombs, stealth planes etc. Of course, that creates an easy fog-of-war in which govts can hide any type of project, military or otherwise. And it's in this fog-of-war where all alternative thinking on secret projects arises.

I think most conspiracies only begin after events have naturally developed to a certain point.

reply to post by jannerfish

One huge exception was 9/11. The last plane had just crashed and the conspiracies theories were already in full swing. I remember hearing about it, as I came out of a morning class I had just finished teaching, and the students were in the halls, and the rumors were already flying.
In the 15 minutes between classes, I managed to hear:
1.) The Russians are attacking us.
2.) NYC had been destroyed.
3.) Mexican troops were already crossing the border, backed by Russian troops. ( I guess a lot of students took a hint from "Red Dawn")
Three rumors/conspiracies in 15 minutes. I didn't hear anything about Bush being responsible, though, for several days.

Well people are finally starting to wake up. But still most people are just stupid. I seen this old document where they show on a chart how the nwo elitiest classify common people. And at the top of the chart are like professionals; smart people like dr's, lawyers, acct's, engineers. And on the chart those people were classified as morons. Everyone under them were barely considered humans.

And I've heard another term which you might have heard of... Biological andriods. ... Most people are exactly that. They're biological andriods. They barely and I mean barely think for themselves. They're so easily programmed by what they see on tv, radio, main stream media, our education system and other sources that they really barely think for themselves anymore. Cuz an andriod is programmed to think and act a certain way. I hardly run into too many people that actually seem to think outside the box, or know anything beyond what they see and hear from main stream media. It's weird even thinking about it right now because it's just so weird. We're a few awaken people amongst a huge amount of biological andriods.

i do not consider myself a conspiracy theorist what i say is true and i can back it up. I hate getting thrown into that name batch of "conspiracy theorists"

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Grew up in a small town with a high growth rate, low crime, and a slow development rate (manpower/brain/talent drain.)

We have more minorities than white people, yet our culture has become remarkably homogeneous.

As to the whole "secret" issue, I did work on a federally funded program for the psychology dep. that was monitoring minority students from other areas and tracking their academic progress, cultural integration, and what social relationships/networks they joined. Lots of data entry and decent pay. It wasn't "secret" by any means, but neither were the students aware of how much we were monitoring them; think daily investigations. but it does seem like something certain groups would want to fund, doesn't it?

*edit* but yes, TSCI is compartmentalized for a reason. But extrapolation is always nice.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
Quite often, I hear the argument that those who do not believe in government conspiracies use, namely using the phrase "That is impossible, since so many people had to keep this secret."
Well, today I came across an interesting item on another website, yielding a real time example of how it is possible.
I'm sure most people are very familiar with the Manhattan Project during World War II.
Well, recently, U.S. Department of Energy’s Oak Ridge office started to digitize photos from the town of Oak Ridge, which was a town of 70,000 people, who worked on the Project. Again, I know that most people know that each person was given such a compartmentalized task, that they did not understand what they were working on.
However, the degree to which this town of 70,000 people was created,has been captured in photos, which are now becoming available for all to see. I urge members to view these photos, which show the extent to which this town has been created as a model Americana town, complete with shops, baseball teams, and just about anything else that you would want in a "perfect" community.
Now consider this question.
How many of you could be working on a project which has a purpose, perhaps evil, perhaps totalitarian, and perhaps with the final intent of making you completely subservient to the PTB?
I would love to hear from members that believe that they may be involved in projects, and do not know the real intent, but have wondered.
Here is the link to the story and the photos of this "perfect Americana community":
www.acontinuouslean.com...

In 1942, as part of the Manhattan Project, the U.S. government acquired 70,000 acres of land in Eastern Tennessee and established a secret town called Oak Ridge. The name chosen to keep outside speculation to a minimum, because Oak Ridge served a vital role for the development of the atomic bomb. The massive complex of massive factories, administrative buildings and every other place a normal town needs to function, was developed for the sole purpose of separating uranium for the Manhattan Project. The completely planned community was designed by the architecture firm of Skidmore, Owings and Merrill, and had a population of more than 70,000 people. Due to the sensitive nature of the work at Oak Ridge, the entire town was fenced in with armed guards and the entire place — much like the Manhattan Project in general — was a secret of the highest concern. The U.S. Department of Energy’s Oak Ridge office recently started to digitize its collection of archival photos and share them through Flickr; and this group of images from the 1940s are part of those recently released.

And yet, we all know about it now!

I think there is a difference when people are working on a project that is vital to national security and remaining free as a country. Stuff like 9/11. . . no, 70,000 people aren't going to keep quiet cause Bush wanted to invade Iraq to avenge Daddy.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

This is something I've always thought about and seen in many threads, the argument that not everyone can keep the secret. But who's to say they knew the secret to begin with?

reply to post by BourneConspiracy

 

You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly how the government keeps secrets Very few of the people that were involved KNEW that there was a secret. I am still unsure of what really happened on 9/11, but certainly the possibility exists that many were involved, but few knew what the outcome would be. For instance, we know that a "practice" had been scheduled for the Air Force, that coincided with the time frame of the attack, and that resulted in delays of Air Force response, since some thought it was part of the practice drill.
The best kept secret are those that are unknown to the majority of the participants, as certainly was the case in Oak Ridge.
Peace.

Well, some people think 9/11 was a controlled demolition. I think if someone handed you some explosives and snuck you into the WTC in the middle of the night without telling you what the end result was going to be, it wouldn't be very hard to figure it out.