Is Honesty Dead?

reply to post by spacedoubt


Love your Plato quote:

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Some one who lies to others lies also to themselves -
Is it fear that someone will see another for who they truly are and yet who we all truly are in soul is most wonderful.
From the cradle to the grave we are taught to hide our true feelings for fear of social outcasting or ridicule- it is a sheep like mentality.
We are all taught to wear masks and adopt labels.
If we were taught to love all unconditionally then this would turn everything around.
So if someone lies then do not condemn but look deeper at the reason they do so.
It is self protection in most instances born of some fear - or deception to gain power over others in some instances - Politicians are good at the latter.
So Honesty is far from dead for honesty is truth and truth can never die.
They say you can be too honest - Yet I admire people who are - Just be careful with whom you share your inner self for some will use it against you - I say be honest but also learn discretion.

Originally posted by artistpoet
Some one who lies to others lies also to themselves -
Is it fear that someone will see another for who they truly are and yet who we all truly are in soul is most wonderful.
From the cradle to the grave we are taught to hide our true feelings for fear of social outcasting or ridicule- it is a sheep like mentality.
We are all taught to wear masks and adopt labels.
If we were taught to love all unconditionally then this would turn everything around.
Just be careful with whom you share your inner self for some will use it against you - I say be honest but also learn discretion.

edit on 3-4-2012 by artistpoet because: typo

If you love someone unconditionally, then what's the difference? It's unconditional.
unconditional (adj) - Bing Dictionary
un·con·di·tion·al [ ùnkən díshən'l ]
with no conditions or limitations: complete or guaranteed, with no conditions, limitations, or provisos attached
Synonyms: unqualified, total, categorical, absolute, unrestricted, unreserved

If people have standards, and they do, then how can their love be without standard. Most people would agree that women should not be abused by their husbands/boyfriends, if she stays with her abuser, does his dishes, cooks for him..ect.. and calls it love, then can she be considered someone "taught to love all unconditionally"?

Originally posted by Wonders
If you love someone unconditionally, then what's the difference? It's unconditional.
unconditional (adj) - Bing Dictionary
un·con·di·tion·al [ ùnkən díshən'l ]
with no conditions or limitations: complete or guaranteed, with no conditions, limitations, or provisos attached
Synonyms: unqualified, total, categorical, absolute, unrestricted, unreserved

If people have standards, and they do, then how can their love be without standard. Most people would agree that women should not be abused by their husbands/boyfriends, if she stays with her abuser, does his dishes, cooks for him..ect.. and calls it love, then can she be considered someone "taught to love all unconditionally"?

No, this means she is afraid. She also does not love herself, and likely does not love the abuser as the abuser is hurting her. Thus, she cannot love unconditionally.

Now, it could be said that she has been "trained to fear all unconditionally", because she has been broken to the point of doing whatever she can to make the abuser [and, likely, other people] happy, even when the abuser is doing nothing to cause fear.

Originally posted by ottobot

Originally posted by Wonders
If you love someone unconditionally, then what's the difference? It's unconditional.
unconditional (adj) - Bing Dictionary
un·con·di·tion·al [ ùnkən díshən'l ]
with no conditions or limitations: complete or guaranteed, with no conditions, limitations, or provisos attached
Synonyms: unqualified, total, categorical, absolute, unrestricted, unreserved

If people have standards, and they do, then how can their love be without standard. Most people would agree that women should not be abused by their husbands/boyfriends, if she stays with her abuser, does his dishes, cooks for him..ect.. and calls it love, then can she be considered someone "taught to love all unconditionally"?

No, this means she is afraid. She also does not love herself, and likely does not love the abuser as the abuser is hurting her. Thus, she cannot love unconditionally.

Now, it could be said that she has been "trained to fear all unconditionally", because she has been broken to the point of doing whatever she can to make the abuser [and, likely, other people] happy, even when the abuser is doing nothing to cause fear.

According to your logic, under what conditions does the term "unconditional love" have merit?

Originally posted by Wonders
According to your logic, under what conditions does the term "unconditional love" have merit?

Unconditional love can only be found where there is nothing but love.

A quote by a famous man, praying for people even as they persecuted him, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Oh bother.

Just to be clear, this thread is about honesty, not love.

Also, while honesty is required in Christianity, as it is in virtually every major religion and cultural movement, the concept did NOT originate with Christ.

Originally posted by soficrow
Just to be clear, this thread is about honesty, not love.

Also, while honesty is required in Christianity, as it is in virtually every major religion and cultural movement, the concept did NOT originate with Christ.

Respectfully, I would argue that dishonesty is not at all coming from a place of love. If all possible scenarios can broken down into multiples of two - meaning it is either this or it is that - then I would that there is love and there is fear. When operating under love there is no possible to reason to fear anyone or anything (even if there might be a strong argument to proceed with caution and prudence) and when we are experiencing fear of someone or something we are no longer function under a love based paradigm.

I made the argument earlier that all warfare is based on deception, and truthfully I am not the first person to make this argument. Not by a long shot. Sun Tzu made the very same argument more than 2,500 years ago. Warfare is hardly a love based paradigm.

Logically speaking, I just have a difficult time understanding how one can effectively be honest - and I mean consistently - if they are not coming from a point of love.

Circumstances ultimately dictate, but I think it is because of the confusion from interpetations, and privacy.

We are talking about honesty or deceitfulness. That does not necessarily mean someone had to "lie" as much as it could mean that they dont have the time to explain in detail, or it is embarrasing, or maybe jeopordizes the story or explanation if details are not omitted. All deceitful, maybe not cunning, unless you are now lying, but maybe thats for privacy.

Story embelleshers are a dime a dozen. Maybe are exagerrating, if not in explanation,then in expression. This can get confusing between the relationship of how someone felt or remembered experience, and how it actually happened.

Imo, honesty is not dead. In fact, if honesty is dead so is trust. And if trust is dead, then people will be more sensitive to information(don't want to be spied on, start thinking like a spy). If honesty is dead, people would actually be paranoid, alert, and taking care of business and taking names, becuase if you know everyone is dishonest, then you will start preparing to hit them with the truth.

Originally posted by soficrow
Just to be clear, this thread is about honesty, not love.

Also, while honesty is required in Christianity, as it is in virtually every major religion and cultural movement, the concept did NOT originate with Christ.

Well, let's break it down.

How to spot an honest person:
- Unfaltering fairness.
- Respectfulness.
- Sincerity.
- Genuineness in words and actions.
- Lack of deception, will even tell the truth when it is self-detrimental.
- Noted trustworthiness.

How to spot a dishonest person:
- Frequently exhibits a lack of scruples.
- Disrespectful, condescending behavior.
- Difficult to discern when the person speaks a truth vs a lie.
- Incongruity in words vs actions.
- Known for skills of cunning and deception.
- Noted flakiness or backtracking.

OK, so we've established a baseline for honesty vs dishonesty in a person's behavior. So, let's go over love and fear.

How to spot love:
- Tenderness.
- Warm, Friendly.
- Care.
- Respectful or kind behavior.
- Considerate at all times.
- Helpful tendencies.
- Calm in unknown situations.
- Highly adaptable, accommodating.
- Noted selfless behavior.


How to spot fear:
- Terseness.
- Cold, Distanced.
- Apathy.
- Disrespectful or rude behavior.
- Frequently inconsiderate of others.
- Uncharitable, greedy tendencies.
- Anxious in unknown situations.
- Problems adapting, accommodating needs of others.
- Noted selfish behavior.

Next, let us examine the popular mindsets of 100 years ago and the present:

Common in 1912:
- Many farmers, food prepared at home.
- Little technology, majority of work done by hand.
- High number of tradespeople.
- Personal issues settled through discussion, contracts, or community government.
- Community assistance with issues, disasters.
- Well-known neighbors.
- Tight-knit family groups.
- Focus on ensuring family success.
- Focus on preparing for unknown situations.
- Focus on teaching knowledge useful in the everyday world.

Common in 2012:
- Few farmers, food prepared at restaurants.
- Extensive technology, majority of work done by machines.
- Low number of tradespeople.
- Personal issues settled through law enforcement, litigation, or high level government.
- Government assistance with issues, disasters.
- Unknown neighbors.
- Varied, split family groups.
- Focus on ensuring financial success.
- Focus on preparing for expected situations.
- Focus on teaching knowledge useful in the business world.


So, what is most highly prized by the current society: honesty, dishonesty, love, or fear?

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

...I just have a difficult time understanding how one can effectively be honest - and I mean consistently - if they are not coming from a point of love.

Point taken.

HONESTY IS NOT DEADJust this morrning my wife came into the bedroom done a twirl in her new dress.And asked does this dress make my bum look fat.I replyd honestly no Darling the dress does not make your bum look fat.Its all those cream cakes you love to eat that make it look fat.So honesty is not dead.BUT I would probably have been had she managed to catch me.