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The Lie of Evolution from a Credible Scientist
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Originally posted by XyZeR
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
My premise is not that evolution is not real. Things do evolve for sure. My premise is that evolution is a result and not a cause of results.
Have you ever read your own sentences?
Because you've contradicted yourself thrice now in 3 sentences, ( perhaps a new ATS record?)
and yet you expect us to have a reasonable discussion with you?
An elaborate troll is what you are imho.
This is what amazes me too. Not only is his entire argumentation based on "god of the gaps" and "argument complexity", but even worse, the original video posted doesn't even promote creationism, and he continues to contradict himself.
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
Originally posted by Tiger5
Originally posted by Figzer
This is just a video of some guy who doesn't understand the subtle complexity of evolution. Or DNA, apparently.edit on 20-3-2012 by Figzer because: (no reason given)
Actually this person cannot be a real scientist as he cannot debunk ALL of the evidence in support of evolution in his life time.
Sadly science is now so specialised that the various biological disciplines alone can barely talk to each other.
Sorry Enochwasright both you and Enoch Powell were decidedly Wrong!
And that evidence would be.....? Care to list a few items from science to support the claim that matter can create consciousness?
The fact that we have seen matter without consciousness but NEVER consciousness without matter IS proof that matter creates consciousness.
Now do you have any examples of conscousness existing without matter?
Originally posted by Deetermined
"A new study finds up to 250 regions where the reference genome sequenced over 13 years may be missing information."
This is mostly due to current sequencing technology limits. If you can produce only about 1,000 nt continuous sequence reads (aka contigs), after assembly process, how can you tell if something is missing from a region where for example AT is repeated 10,000 times? You can tell, that there's nothing there but repetitive sequence, but not how much. The next (next) generation sequencing technologies will produce much longer reads, so this problem is going to vanish within a few years..
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
That requires movement and thought only. The results are derived from your movement and thought, collapsing the wave of indeterminate probability. If you remove thought and movement, you are not doing what happens around you. You are simply a change agent to the states around you. You didn't actually produce the things around you. You are born with a body. What happens from that point on is choice of yours or others. The choice is governed by law you do not operate. You merely operate within the set law.
Yes, but we still make choices and determine exactly how we live our lives. Sure it's just thinking and moving, but that's a giant over simplification or our lives. Again, nothing is provided and there's no evidence to suggest it. Of course the earth has plants and animals, that we can live off of, if it didn't we wouldn't be here. Collapsing the wave is just a guess, there's no physical evidence to suggest it, only mathematical theory, which is far from proven.
The states of matter are never the same twice. Pick up a marker and the electromagnetic radiation from your hand enters the marker and changes its state. Nothing has EVER been in the same state twice. Matter is in constant transition. You need to study classical mechanics and laws of motion to know that no object in existence can be at rest. Constant transition is always the case. LINK
So you link me motion physics in a wiki. What exactly are you referring me to? It doesn't matter if states of matter change. The matter itself does not. Matter is energy. It cannot be created or destroyed, it only changes FORM. It does not actually change into different matter. The same matter is used and reused. If I take a marker and draw a line on a piece of paper, that line will stay there, regardless of changes on the particle level and deeper. The macrocosm does not change, so when you observe matter it IS INDEED the same matter, just in a slightly different form.
.
3) It predicts the future to the letter. Look at the Drudge Report and see that Russia just sent 25,000 troops to Syria. Damascus will be utterly destroyed. The Bible calls this. Consider that Damascus is the longest continuously occupied city in the world. It's never been utterly destroyed to never rise again. When you see this happen, know that all the other revelation is true as well. How about Obama and the NWO. Ring a bell from Revelation?
You are referring to something that MIGHT happen and claiming it means the bible predicted it. That's nothing more than a guess based on a simple language that doesn't even translate fully and properly to English. The bible dates back so long that of course you can force the scriptures to refer to any event. That doesn't mean its true.
4) The Seven Rules of Hillel. This is how the Bible has been preserved. Apart from the seven rules of rightly dividing the words of Moses, the rest cannot be written. The scribes preserved this word to the letter. We only lose it in translation from the original. The Word is not locked in the linguistics. It's in the symbol. The symbol is coded information by the spirit that translates it back to us by imprint. It does not enter the mind by linguistics alone.
But you forget that there are several books intentionally taken out of the original bible. There is a lot missing, and no way to determine which parts are real word of god and which parts where written and thrown in by the council that determined this. We don't even know if the Hebrew scrolls are the originals or not. Also many Hebrew letters also mean numbers, so it makes translating it very difficult. The book is way outdated, some concepts in it are ridiculous when taken literally. I feel this is where the problems arise. You cannot take a translated book from thousands of years ago and interpret it literally since there is plenty of room for error and it doesn't even translate properly to this language. If god actually exists he should be writing an updated book that actually makes sense to modern man, instead of just assuming that everyone is going to take the word as absolute truth when it's so outdated its not even funny. A lot of it is metaphorical as well.
Evolution is a result and not a cause.
That's not true. Evolution IS a cause for the diversity of life on earth. That doesn't mean it wasn't caused by something else, it could be both a cause and an effect, but of course you would need scientific evidence to prove that it's an effect of something, and you'd have to define what that something is.
Evolution says that matter creates consciousness. This simply is a lie. We know better from the theory to be able to discount this as part of the equation. Consciousness is necessary to change the states of matter to order and purpose.
You have a very poor understanding of evolution if you believe that. Everything in the universe is matter and energy, and everything does not go through biological evolution. Evolution is reserved for living organisms with DNA. Genetic mutations that are sorted through natural selection. What you are talking about has nothing to do with evolution, and I suggest you familiarize yourself with the theory before dismissing something based on faulty knowledge.
edit on 22-3-2012 by Barcs because: (no reason given)
Here is a little from the introduction to William Samuel's book "The Child Within Us Lives!"
Something enormous is soon to happen in the world; there is no sensitive person who doesn't feel this deeply. In every field—science, religion, philosophy, government, business, or whatever—a strange sense of disquiet is growing, a feeling of Something Imminent. As we look about us, we can see that the world is off course. Many who think they understand, point to drugs, overcrowding, pollution, the overload of information, corrupt government and any number of other possible causes. But what is happening now has a more significant and, as yet, undreamed of cause. The recognition of this deeper dimension comes with a solution for the world's problems! This book is about that.
If we think of mankind in quantum terms—as a single organism—we might picture civilization as a missile moving through time and space. This missile has been on its way for many thousands of years, headed for a special destination for mankind. Its internal guidance mechanism was turned on when the great religions and philosophies arrived to give humane guidance to men. For Western society, the missile's central system was activated at the time of Judaism's declaration of one God, and that declaration, along with similar statements from other cultures, has been the primary directive for society thus far.
When Christianity arose and broke from the popular Judaism of the day, the missile received input that altered the course, much as our satellites today are given in-flight corrections as they move to do their work in the universe. With each discovery or development in history, Eastern or Western, external and internal, have come new adjustments in civilization's direction. None of the developments in this long line of progression have been accidental or "bad," despite the human tendency to judge them so. Everything that has happened has been driving us relentlessly to this present moment and to the events shortly to begin.
Now, imagine the missile of collective civilization nearing its target, ready to receive its final redirection for the next and perhaps last phase of the trip—not unlike the "smart missile" that sees the target ahead and directs the internal mechanism to drive itself straight to the destination. For mankind, the destination is a rediscovery of simple subjectivism, a new mark in non-space and non-time, a fulfillment of the Original Purpose for tangible life on earth.
As far as the relationship between time and space and their interconnections to tangible life goes, the end-game's corrective information is presently being received within the quantum body of civilization. This information is intended to adjust and correct society's major systems for their final movement as mankind comes to discern the true nature of things—particularly time, space, matter and awareness (life). In many ways science, the vanguard of human wisdom, has nearly reached that comprehension already.
What does this final corrective feel like to you and me here in the old-world scene of things? It comes as a new clock turned on within us; as new sensitivity; an increasing intuitiveness; a new perception within us; as certain unfamiliar anxieties, disquiets, stresses and discomforts; as inexplicable fear and depression. Anyone can look at the human scene and see the lids popping off here and there with acts of insanity and people trying to satisfy impossible urges. Who is to say what the northern geese feel before they assemble to make the trek south? Or the butterflies before they start their long upwind search for their ancestral birthplace? I know that dramatic course-altering input is presently arriving within mankind; the sensitive feel it especially. This arrival is not unlike the way the ability to perceive color has developed in mankind in recent millennia. We are told this sense is one of the latest developments of the human brain—but what is presently happening is at a deeper level of mentation. What is it? The arrival of the truly subjective nature of mentation—quantum man's capacity for ever greater introspective self-examination. "
Something enormous is soon to happen in the world; there is no sensitive person who doesn't feel this deeply. In every field—science, religion, philosophy, government, business, or whatever—a strange sense of disquiet is growing, a feeling of Something Imminent. As we look about us, we can see that the world is off course. Many who think they understand, point to drugs, overcrowding, pollution, the overload of information, corrupt government and any number of other possible causes. But what is happening now has a more significant and, as yet, undreamed of cause. The recognition of this deeper dimension comes with a solution for the world's problems! This book is about that.
If we think of mankind in quantum terms—as a single organism—we might picture civilization as a missile moving through time and space. This missile has been on its way for many thousands of years, headed for a special destination for mankind. Its internal guidance mechanism was turned on when the great religions and philosophies arrived to give humane guidance to men. For Western society, the missile's central system was activated at the time of Judaism's declaration of one God, and that declaration, along with similar statements from other cultures, has been the primary directive for society thus far.
When Christianity arose and broke from the popular Judaism of the day, the missile received input that altered the course, much as our satellites today are given in-flight corrections as they move to do their work in the universe. With each discovery or development in history, Eastern or Western, external and internal, have come new adjustments in civilization's direction. None of the developments in this long line of progression have been accidental or "bad," despite the human tendency to judge them so. Everything that has happened has been driving us relentlessly to this present moment and to the events shortly to begin.
Now, imagine the missile of collective civilization nearing its target, ready to receive its final redirection for the next and perhaps last phase of the trip—not unlike the "smart missile" that sees the target ahead and directs the internal mechanism to drive itself straight to the destination. For mankind, the destination is a rediscovery of simple subjectivism, a new mark in non-space and non-time, a fulfillment of the Original Purpose for tangible life on earth.
As far as the relationship between time and space and their interconnections to tangible life goes, the end-game's corrective information is presently being received within the quantum body of civilization. This information is intended to adjust and correct society's major systems for their final movement as mankind comes to discern the true nature of things—particularly time, space, matter and awareness (life). In many ways science, the vanguard of human wisdom, has nearly reached that comprehension already.
What does this final corrective feel like to you and me here in the old-world scene of things? It comes as a new clock turned on within us; as new sensitivity; an increasing intuitiveness; a new perception within us; as certain unfamiliar anxieties, disquiets, stresses and discomforts; as inexplicable fear and depression. Anyone can look at the human scene and see the lids popping off here and there with acts of insanity and people trying to satisfy impossible urges. Who is to say what the northern geese feel before they assemble to make the trek south? Or the butterflies before they start their long upwind search for their ancestral birthplace? I know that dramatic course-altering input is presently arriving within mankind; the sensitive feel it especially. This arrival is not unlike the way the ability to perceive color has developed in mankind in recent millennia. We are told this sense is one of the latest developments of the human brain—but what is presently happening is at a deeper level of mentation. What is it? The arrival of the truly subjective nature of mentation—quantum man's capacity for ever greater introspective self-examination. "
" At this moment, civilization is a little like a field of cotton beginning to bloom: first a boll here, another there, then more and more until one
morning we look out and the entire field is abloom. Or, it is like popcorn popping. One kernel pops, then another and another until there is a
veritable explosion of the rest. Hard pressed, shaken together and running over, mankind is coming into a conscious knowledge of a subjective sense of
things which is certain to alter the course of civilization. The first "blooms" have been the prophets, the seers, the avatars, the insightful,
those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Now the field is turning white with the ability to perceive subjectively. Confusion abounds at the
unrecognized newness of it all. Now that subjectivism is here, no one knows what to do with it. The major divisions of human activity have not made
the necessary adjustments to allow the missile the freedom to change course. Neither education, government, religion nor metaphysics has made the full
turn demanded of them—and the time is short. In certain areas, science, with the help of subjective quantum mechanics, has adjusted reasonably well
as it goes along searching the vistas of tangibility, but it remains to be seen what scientists will do with their information once it becomes clear
that they are now, and always have been, examining consciousness.
People are individually willing to adjust, as their intuitions and feelings come into focus, but the controlling groups to which they belong, are vigorously holding to the old ways, refusing to listen to the New Sounds within. Either the institutions of mankind adjust to allow men to change mental course, or there will be a sociological anguish unparalleled in human history." (William Samuel "The Child Within Us Lives! A Synthesis of Science, Religion and Metaphysics" 1986)
People are individually willing to adjust, as their intuitions and feelings come into focus, but the controlling groups to which they belong, are vigorously holding to the old ways, refusing to listen to the New Sounds within. Either the institutions of mankind adjust to allow men to change mental course, or there will be a sociological anguish unparalleled in human history." (William Samuel "The Child Within Us Lives! A Synthesis of Science, Religion and Metaphysics" 1986)
Originally posted by Prezbo369
Who? why would you automatically assume that 'someone' created this requirement? reproduction is a requirement for life, if it doesn't reproduce its not alive, its as simple as that.
So, who or what decided there should be life at all? Who or what decided what kind of life would exist on the earth to begin with?
Two words
Natural selection
look it up
Wouldn't nature have to have some kind of intelligence to be able to "select" anything? Who or what determines which species is ultimately going to be the stronger one over the weaker one? Who or what decided which animals were going to eat plants and which ones were going to eat meat?
Ever watched raindrops falling into a puddle? have you ever looked at a snowflake? If you have, you would've witnessed perfect order produced from complete chaos.
Seriously? What is even remotely random or chaotic about that? It does rain and snow for a reason, right? We know how and why that happens and it has an order to it like everything else. If anything, the design of the snowflake is more proof of intelligent design.
Your entire post was one giant cliché. Its the type of garbage that creationists have been peddling since the 60s, they were completely refuted back then but these days its almost amusing.
Likewise. I'm seeing a large number of you posters claiming that creationists have been "completely" refuted, but I'm not seeing any of you backing up those "theories" either.
reply to post by RebelRouser
Don't use that word it is rude. And what do you mean? I was making light humor of people who don't believe in Evolution.
Don't use that word it is rude. And what do you mean? I was making light humor of people who don't believe in Evolution.
Originally posted by randyvs
Also I know myself facts and logic do not always produce truth. Sometimes to produce a truth you have to have an ability toi see beyond facts and logic. Nothing spiritual will ever produce facts and logic. A lot of people chase their own tail in this manner. Including you Barcs. Not an insult at all. But how can you not step outside the box and have a look at the bigger picture at every point along the way in the search for truth ? If you yourself found absolute proof would you believe ? Well like you said that will never happen. So you just locked yourself out..[)
See, I DO think outside the box. I'm open minded to almost anything. I'm also a logical person, and I follow the evidence. I can philosophize about the initial cause of the universe, and think about a possible creator, but it doesn't go beyond personal beliefs. That's the reason I'm agnostic, because I don't know the full story or the exactly absolute answer to questions like that. There could have been a universal creator, but at this point there is no way to prove it.
Originally posted by Deetermined
Well, it looks like Razimus was right about someone coming along and making such a statement, but then you turned around and contradicted yourself in the same paragraph too.
It has nothing to do with IQ. It has everything to do with having enough imagination mixed with logic to explore all of the possibilities.
I'm not sure if you noticed, but I was responding to the guy who said that people who don't see intelligence in design have lower intelligence, which is false and statistics show otherwise. Creativity has nothing to do with intelligence? I'm not sure I agree with that at all. It's not about exploring possibilities, it's about scientific proof. Obviously there are tons of possibilities, and believe me I've pondered many of them, but I look for what we know, not what might be. Intellectually that gets you nowhere, especially when people claim that as fact, when it's just a possibility, and somehow try to claim it nullifies evolution. That's where I take issue, not with the beliefs themselves. I'm strong supporter of freedom of religion. I did not contradict myself.
How are terms like "random" and "big bang" logical when science is explaining what it still does not know? Do those words really seem logical to you? Does it not seem logical that everything in the universe works in a perfect order and everything in it affects everything else that is in it? Does it not seem logical that only something else that was perfect could have created that perfect order? The only thing that isn't perfect, is science's understanding and explanation for it.
Can you provide evidence of this "perfect order" of the universe? It is chaotic. Cause and effect run wild, nearly everything is caused by various types of energy and forces interacting with each other. Planets colliding, stars exploding, black holes annihilating everything in their path, gravity and spacetime displacement. It is anything but perfect, but again, if you want to talk designer, then give evidence he actually exists. You are speculating about the complexity of the universe, and that's pretty much it. If the universe is so perfect, please go to the moon and live there. You'll see how harsh it really is out there. Planets like earth are rare. BTW there is TONS of evidence for the big bang. Explain something in science that is random and doesn't follow logic. Good luck.
The only thing I know for sure is that science will never come up with most or even half of the answers. As soon as they think they've come closer to an answer, they'll discover that they were further away from all the answers than they even realized. When it comes to human existence, they won't even come close, even though they think they will.
Science learns more and more everyday. We don't know everything but we do know quite a bit. That's how it works. You verify a theory with experiments and try to falsify it. The knowledge base is constantly expanding and is our best understanding of the universe right now. A creator is not. Most people who criticize evolution or the big bang or other facts of science are not even scientifically literate and dismiss them based on nonsense. There's nothing wrong with believing in god, just admit its only faith, and not fact, and stop trying to deceive people by posting false information about a scientific field of study that you know nothing about. (not saying this to you directly, just in general).
Wouldn't nature have to have some kind of intelligence to be able to "select" anything? Who or what determines which species is ultimately going to be the stronger one over the weaker one? Who or what decided which animals were going to eat plants and which ones were going to eat meat?
Why assume that? It could be something as simple as a creature having darker fur than another and surviving better in a darker environment, while the lighter fur animal gets eaten by a predator. There is no intelligence necessary. You need to do some reading about evolution because you showing a clear lack of knowledge on the subject. Nature doesn't consciously select something. Predators eat what they can to survive. If the prey has good camouflage it won't get noticed and eaten. There's no need for a who or what to decide anything.
edit on 22-3-2012 by Barcs because: (no
reason given)
The Evolution vs Creationism argument shows exactly how unenlightened and out of touch with reality humans still are - Why do people assume that
intelligent design automatically negates evolution??
Evolution is a brilliant way for life forms to adapt to their surroundings.
Very intelligent, if you ask me.
Evolution is a brilliant way for life forms to adapt to their surroundings.
Very intelligent, if you ask me.
Originally posted by Barcs
I'm not sure if you noticed, but I was responding to the guy who said that people who don't see intelligence in design have lower intelligence, which is false and statistics show otherwise.
Are you talking about the person who made this statement? Because he didn't say what you're claiming.
Nice video, this guy wrote the code for the MRI, I agree with him, atheists will say believers are below them in intelligence, when such is not the case nor ever will be. When it gets down to it this will not persuade the un-believers from believing, because they do not have the 'eye' which can see.
"have the 'eye' which can see" is not referring to intelligence.
Creativity has nothing to do with intelligence? I'm not sure I agree with that at all. It's not about exploring possibilities, it's about scientific proof. Obviously there are tons of possibilities, and believe me I've pondered many of them, but I look for what we know, not what might be. Intellectually that gets you nowhere, especially when people claim that as fact, when it's just a possibility, and somehow try to claim it nullifies evolution. That's where I take issue, not with the beliefs themselves. I'm strong supporter of freedom of religion. I did not contradict myself.
Sorry, but you have to explore all the possibilities in order to provide the proof, and so far, science hasn't come up with it. I could say the same to you about how using "scientific proof", without considering what might be, still gets you nowhere.
Can you provide evidence of this "perfect order" of the universe? It is chaotic. Cause and effect run wild, nearly everything is caused by various types of energy and forces interacting with each other. Planets colliding, stars exploding, black holes annihilating everything in their path, gravity and spacetime displacement. It is anything but perfect, but again, if you want to talk designer, then give evidence he actually exists. You are speculating about the complexity of the universe, and that's pretty much it. If the universe is so perfect, please go to the moon and live there. You'll see how harsh it really is out there. Planets like earth are rare. BTW there is TONS of evidence for the big bang. Explain something in science that is random and doesn't follow logic. Good luck.
Sorry, "chaotic" is only a word to describe that which is not understood. Just because you or I don't understand it, doesn't make it "chaotic". Also, as far as proof of existence of God, other than what we see (which I think is proof alone), it requires a personal experience. This is something where proof is only given to the person who experiences it. There is no other way.
Science learns more and more everyday. We don't know everything but we do know quite a bit. That's how it works. You verify a theory with experiments and try to falsify it. The knowledge base is constantly expanding and is our best understanding of the universe right now. A creator is not. Most people who criticize evolution or the big bang or other facts of science are not even scientifically literate and dismiss them based on nonsense. There's nothing wrong with believing in god, just admit its only faith, and not fact, and stop trying to deceive people by posting false information about a scientific field of study that you know nothing about. (not saying this to you directly, just in general).
I think Enochwasright is more advanced than anyone else here by trying to bring religion and science together instead of constantly trying to separate it. It's just a matter of time before people realize that they are not exclusive from one another. One day people will also realize that you can't scientifically prove the workings of consciousness, spirituality, or anything that can't be seen for that matter. It is only nonsense to you because you don't understand that aspect of reality.
Why assume that? It could be something as simple as a creature having darker fur than another and surviving better in a darker environment, while the lighter fur animal gets eaten by a predator. There is no intelligence necessary.
Surely you're not so dense that you don't realize that these animals were created to blend into their environments as a form of survival....that was designed that way. You think it's random chance that animals are the colors that they are? You think it's random chance that any animal, bird or insect is the color that it is? Do you think it's random chance that female birds of the same species differ in color than their male counterparts so that they can blend in and protect their young better? Come on!
Originally posted by DeReK DaRkLy
Evolution is a brilliant way for life forms to adapt to their surroundings.
Very intelligent, if you ask me.
Evolution is the consequence of natural selection acting upon genetic diversity. There's no more intelligence behind this force of nature, than there is behind the force of nature that we call gravity, yet you seldom see people arguing for intelligent falling instead of Einstein's theory of relativity.
Why can't it be both;
Evolution means that we have not stopped evolving.
My guess is that we are evolving into supernal beings of pure light, or some sort of pure divine beings who "know who they are". We are evolving to know the Truth, to know what Is and what is not.
I think we are evolving toward the realization that God is All and we will know what that means, and how to live more fully in the Reality that there is only one awareness here and belongs to That Which Is. In other words we are evolving out of the separated sense of identity, we are becoming aware that we live in a holographic universe and that matter is not 'real' but more like pixels on the TV.
We are evolving to know that There is only One Consciousness and It is Omnipresent and Infinite and that Life is eternal and we are Life Itself. Or something like that.
-so something like that or whatever--- If I believe we evolved the I must assume we are on our way to becoming something smarter, greater, better, more adaptable, more efficient---you know---whatever evolving is evolving to become.
To evolve is to become something that is able to survive, so who is to say what we would or should be like when we have evolved to be whatever is the thing we are evolving into.
I'd suspect it would be that we evolve right on out of this materialistic belief system that is not working so well and into more insightful sort of beings who are maybe evolved to no longer rely on matter for existence. Maybe we can live without need for this seemingly mortal bag of flesh that thinks it thinks that thinks it is the possessor of life---
Perhaps our evolutionary destiny is to become more like the photon and be everywhere and everyone the same self-knowing one. Maybe we are to be immortal beings who are made of Light ---just speculating, but certainly if the premise of 'evolution' is true, then we are still evolving---and we are certainly going to become something quite marvelous---isn't that what evolution does, it always grows better and better and more capable of survival and more intelligent and all that---that would or could be something we don't even have the ability to comprehend from this lowly, blindly grasping, unknowing less evolved view.
I'd like to wait and see what we are to become as Life unfolds---
Evolution means that we have not stopped evolving.
My guess is that we are evolving into supernal beings of pure light, or some sort of pure divine beings who "know who they are". We are evolving to know the Truth, to know what Is and what is not.
I think we are evolving toward the realization that God is All and we will know what that means, and how to live more fully in the Reality that there is only one awareness here and belongs to That Which Is. In other words we are evolving out of the separated sense of identity, we are becoming aware that we live in a holographic universe and that matter is not 'real' but more like pixels on the TV.
We are evolving to know that There is only One Consciousness and It is Omnipresent and Infinite and that Life is eternal and we are Life Itself. Or something like that.
-so something like that or whatever--- If I believe we evolved the I must assume we are on our way to becoming something smarter, greater, better, more adaptable, more efficient---you know---whatever evolving is evolving to become.
To evolve is to become something that is able to survive, so who is to say what we would or should be like when we have evolved to be whatever is the thing we are evolving into.
I'd suspect it would be that we evolve right on out of this materialistic belief system that is not working so well and into more insightful sort of beings who are maybe evolved to no longer rely on matter for existence. Maybe we can live without need for this seemingly mortal bag of flesh that thinks it thinks that thinks it is the possessor of life---
Perhaps our evolutionary destiny is to become more like the photon and be everywhere and everyone the same self-knowing one. Maybe we are to be immortal beings who are made of Light ---just speculating, but certainly if the premise of 'evolution' is true, then we are still evolving---and we are certainly going to become something quite marvelous---isn't that what evolution does, it always grows better and better and more capable of survival and more intelligent and all that---that would or could be something we don't even have the ability to comprehend from this lowly, blindly grasping, unknowing less evolved view.
I'd like to wait and see what we are to become as Life unfolds---
reply to post by MrXYZ
If you claim evolution, you state there is no creator. This implies that consciousness comes from matter on a random accident. There can be no conscious choice made to rise to awareness for matter apart from the ability to make a choice. Choice involves collapsing wave function and the reverse of information entropy. These two theories negate the random possibility a piece of matter can think. Evolution cannot show this in any way to be the case. We then move to the obvious answer. We are created with information from a bio-mechanical technology. Consciousness is the key to determining the process. As of yet, evolutionary theory cannot demonstrate how inert matter becomes conscious.
You might wanna read a basic article about the theory, because it makes no statements regarding "consciousness". How on earth can you criticize something you so clearly don't even understand?
If you claim evolution, you state there is no creator. This implies that consciousness comes from matter on a random accident. There can be no conscious choice made to rise to awareness for matter apart from the ability to make a choice. Choice involves collapsing wave function and the reverse of information entropy. These two theories negate the random possibility a piece of matter can think. Evolution cannot show this in any way to be the case. We then move to the obvious answer. We are created with information from a bio-mechanical technology. Consciousness is the key to determining the process. As of yet, evolutionary theory cannot demonstrate how inert matter becomes conscious.
reply to post by MrXYZ
Matter cannot want. It cannot want to know something. Once you know this, you understand that matter cannot desire an outcome unless it is first programmed for such a desire. Life is not the matter. Life is the consciousness. This guy demonstrates what I am saying by speaking of the human increasing knowledge. For a unit of matter or bit of information to desire, it must be self-aware. Matter, apart form life, will be self-aware. Can energy be self-aware if it develops in a different universe than ours? I would image it can. We are created by some form of energetic process with consciousness. Evolution may very well have taken place in a different universe. God may be a self-aware universe opposite ours that has gained all knowledge over energy over the course of the last 10 trillion years. We are possibly a unit of this infinity in temporal movement. This is much more plausible than saying energy in a high state of order with low entropy created consciousness on its own. Either way you look at it, you need to admit that consciousness proceeded matter. Once you know this is an inescapable outcome, infinity and our description of God is the obvious answer. For there to be an eternal infinity in our reasoning of a finite universe, there must be infinity, otherwise, there is no finite reality possible. You can't have one apart from the other. This can be demonstrated. A timeline must be a division of the whole.
Then, there is Bells Theory of Non-local consciousness. We also know that particles can be entangled. We are all connected at the quantum level. Consciousness is collective. There is a design to the consciousness that is veiled. The veil is what is shown in the Bible as the veil over the temple of God. How does the Bible know this? The Temple is the body. The implements of the sacrifice is our ability to move and think. We are cleansed in the water by our baptism into reality. Jesus said, "you must be born again." In other words, there is no choice. You will be born again. You are not your body. You are non-local to your body.
If you need more evidence, I have more.
That's your BELIEF. Provide some facts to prove that claim, or stop pretending you're stating facts.
Matter cannot want. It cannot want to know something. Once you know this, you understand that matter cannot desire an outcome unless it is first programmed for such a desire. Life is not the matter. Life is the consciousness. This guy demonstrates what I am saying by speaking of the human increasing knowledge. For a unit of matter or bit of information to desire, it must be self-aware. Matter, apart form life, will be self-aware. Can energy be self-aware if it develops in a different universe than ours? I would image it can. We are created by some form of energetic process with consciousness. Evolution may very well have taken place in a different universe. God may be a self-aware universe opposite ours that has gained all knowledge over energy over the course of the last 10 trillion years. We are possibly a unit of this infinity in temporal movement. This is much more plausible than saying energy in a high state of order with low entropy created consciousness on its own. Either way you look at it, you need to admit that consciousness proceeded matter. Once you know this is an inescapable outcome, infinity and our description of God is the obvious answer. For there to be an eternal infinity in our reasoning of a finite universe, there must be infinity, otherwise, there is no finite reality possible. You can't have one apart from the other. This can be demonstrated. A timeline must be a division of the whole.
Then, there is Bells Theory of Non-local consciousness. We also know that particles can be entangled. We are all connected at the quantum level. Consciousness is collective. There is a design to the consciousness that is veiled. The veil is what is shown in the Bible as the veil over the temple of God. How does the Bible know this? The Temple is the body. The implements of the sacrifice is our ability to move and think. We are cleansed in the water by our baptism into reality. Jesus said, "you must be born again." In other words, there is no choice. You will be born again. You are not your body. You are non-local to your body.
If you need more evidence, I have more.
edit on 22-3-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
reply to post by Sweetmystery
It can be both. The lie is to say God is not possible and that matter is the God of consciousness. This can't be shown to be true. Only consciousness can collapse the indeterminate wave to purpose and design. Every theory demonstrates this conclusion. We are all linked at the quantum level and entangled to the whole. Energy is information as demonstrated by the Susskind video earlier posted. We are digital. Science continues to push toward this conclusion of the holographic brain and the holographic universe theory. We are a quantum computer and our soul is non-local to our body. Did the Bible say this? Yes.
Genesis 1
Genesis 1:1
In the Beginning (Time), God created the heavens (Space) and the earth (Matter). Let there be light (Energy).
Genesis 1:27
1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
Are we inside this image of energy? Yes. Are we the image of our creator? Yes. Do we create the same way and have we made our own image in silicon rather than carbon? Yes. You are using it now.
What created our universe? WORD, which is Christ. Word is wave and it is information. Light is a duality of particle and wave with information. It is a Trinity if Science would acknowledge God.
1 Colossians 1:
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Did God describe the Quantum World? Is information visible?
Hebrews 11
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Where is this all going when we transcend this body?
2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
Can we see God? No. There is no opposite in this reality to reflect Him because He is not in this reality, but outside of our dimensional time/space. God's Spirit is here and we are part of that unified consciousness called spirit. The soul connects us to the body.
If we see in a reflection of light, how will we see when we transcend this place of education and growth as children of God? We grow to be beyond a child.
1 Corinthians 13
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
What is the point?
Discovering love. Becoming more than a thief who steals what is given. Instead, we learn to give and value others. God has done this for us in love. Energy cannot be destroyed. We are energy in transition to more than what we can verify apart from faith under the veil.
Why can't it be both;
Evolution means that we have not stopped evolving.
My guess is that we are evolving into supernal beings of pure light, or some sort of pure divine beings who "know who they are". We are evolving to know the Truth, to know what Is and what is not.
It can be both. The lie is to say God is not possible and that matter is the God of consciousness. This can't be shown to be true. Only consciousness can collapse the indeterminate wave to purpose and design. Every theory demonstrates this conclusion. We are all linked at the quantum level and entangled to the whole. Energy is information as demonstrated by the Susskind video earlier posted. We are digital. Science continues to push toward this conclusion of the holographic brain and the holographic universe theory. We are a quantum computer and our soul is non-local to our body. Did the Bible say this? Yes.
Genesis 1
Genesis 1:1
In the Beginning (Time), God created the heavens (Space) and the earth (Matter). Let there be light (Energy).
Genesis 1:27
1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
Are we inside this image of energy? Yes. Are we the image of our creator? Yes. Do we create the same way and have we made our own image in silicon rather than carbon? Yes. You are using it now.
What created our universe? WORD, which is Christ. Word is wave and it is information. Light is a duality of particle and wave with information. It is a Trinity if Science would acknowledge God.
1 Colossians 1:
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Did God describe the Quantum World? Is information visible?
Hebrews 11
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Where is this all going when we transcend this body?
2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
Can we see God? No. There is no opposite in this reality to reflect Him because He is not in this reality, but outside of our dimensional time/space. God's Spirit is here and we are part of that unified consciousness called spirit. The soul connects us to the body.
If we see in a reflection of light, how will we see when we transcend this place of education and growth as children of God? We grow to be beyond a child.
1 Corinthians 13
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
What is the point?
Discovering love. Becoming more than a thief who steals what is given. Instead, we learn to give and value others. God has done this for us in love. Energy cannot be destroyed. We are energy in transition to more than what we can verify apart from faith under the veil.
edit on 22-3-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by MrXYZ
You might wanna read a basic article about the theory, because it makes no statements regarding "consciousness". How on earth can you criticize something you so clearly don't even understand?
If you claim evolution, you state there is no creator. This implies that consciousness comes from matter on a random accident. There can be no conscious choice made to rise to awareness for matter apart from the ability to make a choice. Choice involves collapsing wave function and the reverse of information entropy. These two theories negate the random possibility a piece of matter can think. Evolution cannot show this in any way to be the case. We then move to the obvious answer. We are created with information from a bio-mechanical technology. Consciousness is the key to determining the process. As of yet, evolutionary theory cannot demonstrate how inert matter becomes conscious.
The theory of evolution makes no statements regarding "consciousness", so I really don't know what the hell you're talking about. It also doesn't state things happen because of a chance event, that's just something creationists repeat over and over and over again.
Not sure why you try to mix the theory of evolution with completely other cosmological theories as they have NOTHING to do with eachother.
What amazes me is that you criticize a theory you so obviously don't understand. I mean, you pretend the theory of evolution should make (or makes) claims about consciousness...which it doesn't even do.
Do yourself a favor and read at least the basic wiki article about the subject before making more laughable posts
Originally posted by rhinoceros
Originally posted by DeReK DaRkLy
Evolution is a brilliant way for life forms to adapt to their surroundings.
Very intelligent, if you ask me.
Evolution is the consequence of natural selection acting upon genetic diversity. There's no more intelligence behind this force of nature, than there is behind the force of nature that we call gravity, yet you seldom see people arguing for intelligent falling instead of Einstein's theory of relativity.
For this assumption to be made by a conscious being, you need to first describe how single cells developed chemiosmosis as a fuel cell. This is a mechanical process that defies any reasoning beyond the obvious feature of a nano-engineered design. It starts with the single cell. All cells use this process to gain energy at the level of the atom. Speaking of the atom, we can now demonstrate that there is pixelation in nature when we look at the atomic level. This suggests we are a projection of energy in a hologram. See the video below.
We are in an image, just as God describes in Genesis.
1:27
1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.