Public Schools to Require College Application??

This would seem to be the case if one D.C. Lawmaker has his say, and I believe this is a very bad precedent. The College and University system in the United States is NOT a basic extension of High School. It never has been here and it never should be. This is wrong on a few levels, but lets see what is being proposed...

Lawmakers in the nation's capital have floated a plan to require high school students to apply to college or trade school -- even if the students have no interest in attending.

The proposal is a bid to ensure students in the troubled Washington, D.C., school system at least have the know-how to navigate the admissions process.

Okay, it makes sense that a High School student should know how to navigate the process, but should this be the reason for this kind of proposal? If navigating the process is beyond the skill level of a HS Student, perhaps a real hard set of questions need asked of the School they are in. However, this isn't the major issue in my opinion. This is merely a nugget of absurdity in the logic being applied.

The proposal here specifically would Mandate a workshop to teach students how to apply for both the school and the AID to get there. As the final step, it would require the actual application of each student to at least one school. Then we come to this:

The bill would also require every high school student to take the SAT or ACT tests. While the admissions and test-taking process would entail fees, Brown said he would work with the school system to make sure students have the "resources" to apply.

Source of above quoted areas

Well, I am glad Mr. Brown here is so free with "resources". Is HE paying for this? The schools in my city are strapped and kids do with very little as it is. I'm betting D.C. is not swimming in money either. Just what "resources" will be made available? Which testing companies will be benefiting from the sudden windfall of *ALL* students taking the tests whether they want to or not?

Now why would this be any problem on the face of it? Some people will insist every student should have the opportunity for college, and I'd actually agree to a point. Every student should have the opportunity. However, they should not be pushed into it. That does them no favors if they go without really feeling the drive or inner push to excel.

It WILL build them debt beyond belief and they can never get out of or bankrupt. It does the school no favors in wasting resources, although they still get paid so I supose they are okay in the end. However, it does the rest of the college student body NO favors because not EVERYONE who wants to get into schools can. Those who don't really care either way also create a variety of problems and distractions for the serious students. Clogging the system with warm bodies really just hurts everyone. Here is why:

There is seemingly universal agreement in higher education that college completion rates aren’t high enough. Yet it’s difficult to find anyone pointing fingers at a particular college. Lawmakers lament the low graduation rates of students who receive federal Pell grants, the largest source of federal student aid to low-income students. Yet to criticize a college with a large Pell student population and a miniscule graduation rate is thought to be bad form.

Indeed, I am sure it is bad form. However, some truth needs to come to the process here and those encouraged to proceed should be those driven to succeed. When you don't focus on those who REALLY want to be there for a degree and the future it brings, this is what comes:

4. University of the District of Columbia. Graduation rate: 12 percent. UDC’s struggle with low completion rates is well-documented. President Allen Sessoms spun off the UDC community college into a separate unit, partly for the purpose of improving the success rate at the four-year university. His goal for the UDC graduation rate: “at least 50 percent.” It will be several years before we know whether he has met it. “This should be the exemplar of an urban public university,” Sessoms said

Source

Now the above source for graduation rates has some of the correspondence schools. That is misleading to the topic of my thread and University of D.C. is not in that class. It's a real school serving the community they want to enact this proposal in. Below is a map to clarify what UDC actually is, with that graduation rate.



What I personally see here is yet another program with what may be good intentions, but with very poor thinking behind it and a lack of follow through on where it may lead. What I see it leading to is this:

1. Another database every student will be in with great personal detail
   
2. Enormous credit in the way of financial aid either applied for or strongly encouraged whether it's wanted or not
   
3. Strong encouragement and all but a paved road to college whether the skill, aptitude or drive exists within a student or not
   

I also see yet another area that Government at any level really needs to stay clear out of. Those who feel the call to higher things by way of College won't need the encouragement and sure won't need a class to teach them how to apply. It really isn't THAT difficult, just time consuming. I'm starting my next semester in a bit over a week. I know what the process entails. Those who do NOT feel the call are better off just staying clear away from College. All will be better for it.

Either way though, if the D.C. Government feels the need to Micromanage their school system, perhaps continuing to work on their own graduation rates would be in order. It's progress, but there is room to go before spending "resources", as they term it, elsewhere:

Source Article

So what does everyone else think? Should every High School student be 'nudged', guided and REQUIRED to apply into college regardless of drive or aptitude or should higher education be the target for those of all backgrounds with a higher than average desire to be there, and who should pay the expenses to get there?

being forced to go to school when i was younger has made me learn alot of things. At the age of a highschool person i dont think its a bad thing to know where you stand. Dont resist every forceful situation in life or you will just get nowhere

If they do this, in case some of these people, who might not ordinarily apply, actually get accepted, make COLLEGE AFFORDABLE, stop cutting dang education, and make assistance and grants easier to obtain instead of LOANS. What good is the opportunity if you won't help them to actually attend? "We'll help you get accepted but not to actually go/pay for it?" What a crock.

These people do not care about education. They only want the NUMBERS to reflect positively on the system. In actuality, they want people dumb and easier to control, which is why they CUT education FIRST in almost EVERY circumstance. And colleges have to jack tuition and other costs to keep up with their own budget after getting cut themselves.

Most of these targeted are too poor to finance attendance, and even FAFSA can't cover most of the costs because the costs keep RISING.

Want people to go to college? MAKE IT AFFORDABLE. Put cost within reach.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


How much do You want to bet the REAL reason for this is $$$$$.

And You KNOW what I think about $$$$$ and that We can get rid of it.

( www.abovetopsecret.com... )

reply to post by Amaterasu

Indeed. I think the requirement for ACT/SAT testing is where a lot of that will come in. I wonder what the strongest supporters of this proposal have in the way of ties to the Education system in that area and specifically, the testing services. From what I can see, they are the ones who will make a true windfall first. After that, take your pick I guess....

Everyone gets a piece as the kids progress through the process if it leads to College. For those who were going anyway, it doesn't matter...but how many will this pick up who weren't? Indeed, you're right. There is a lot of money involved by sheer scale of numbers.

No, not at all. Some people just aren't material for that, would benefit from other options. As others have mentioned, make it affordable...for those who want to go. Plus, not to mention the corrupt system and impending bubble of debt(One source of many) that is happening, why add to making it all worse? Post bubble after the colleges go bankrupt, more job losses and college towns sadly will suffer.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I must say that I'm a little surprised by the responses so far.

Don't resist every forceful situation in life. . .

But isn't the point that D.C. is adding more "forceful situations?" Wouldn't the draft be a "forceful situation" that the poster would advise us to accept? Or is the suggestion that we should learn to accept more and more government imposed requirements? Why is the student and his family unable to decide for themselves whether to apply to college? Then why not make them apply for grad school? They'll learn even more.

Want people to go to college? MAKE IT AFFORDABLE. Put cost within reach.

It doesn't matter if I want people to go to college. What matters is if they want to go to college. They have to decide if it's good for them. If it is, then they decide how much they want. And, as is traditional, if you want something, you pay for it.

There are a thousand good things in the world, there is no reason why taxpayers have to pay for everyone to get all of them. Nor any reason to pay for a college education when most of the D.C. students are unable to do basic college math or reading. They'll fail out in the first year and will have lost a year of their young lives.

The idea that education is being continually cut is a strange one. We are spending more and more each year, yet our high schools turn out children in the, how to put it politely, "mediocre" rank of developed countries. It may be that one level of government is paying less, but others will pick up slack to keep revenue relatively stable or increasing. My school district spends a little over $10,000 per student annually. That's got to be enough.

Yet another problem.

These people do not care about education. They only want the NUMBERS to reflect positively on the system

D.C. district schools have a much larger minority population than the rest of the country. If college applications from minorities shoot up, colleges will have to explain why they're not accepting more minorities. Saying they don't have college level skills will only get them branded as racist, and maybe inverstigated by Holder's DOJ.

I know I've rambled, and was not as polite as I could have been. Please put it down to old age or lack of sleep or something, because I appreciate seeing people post.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


As I understand it - - in many countries you have to pass entrance exams to continue "higher learning". If you do not pass these exams - - you go to a trade school.

Why is that a bad system?

It sounds logical to me.

I don't know. I think this will do more good then harm. If they don't want to go to college their not going to go to college. But, this will at least open their eyes on what to prepare for before entering college. Especially with the SAT/ACT. I don't think I have ever taken that test. I don't remember taking it. Maybe I did, who knows.

But for the troublemakers, they need to know what a college expects of you. Should they ever want end their troubled ways and go to college later to make a better life for themselves. What they do in High School now, will totally affect the outcome of whether or not that college will accept them. That's if, they decide to ever change their ways and want to go. And because they caused trouble in the past, before that school will even considering accepting them, they will have to write an essay paper of why they think, they should go to that college. Plus, answer up to all their felonies.

I had to do it.

I got suspended for a week because I got into a fight with a bully and had to explain my actions of why I was suspended and why I should feel that the school should accept me. It was the one time, I stood up for myself and had enough. I went through it for 6 months. Not to mention all through Jr. High and grade school. I wore a orthopedic back brace [From the neck to my tailbone] throughout my education years. And, I went through heck and survived it.

I don't think it will hurt. Maybe it enlighten the kids, and make them actually think before their actions.

Absolutely ridiculous and it just sounds like another rip off to line somebody's pockets with the testing and application fees. Not everyone is cut out for college.

You want to help politicians? How about bringing back the DC voucher program which was a huge, proven success. Never understood why O would want to sink that? Bring back vocational and tech training for those whose desired journey does not require a 4 year degree. You know what a good, trained auto mechanic can make?

Heck, my daughter is in the gifted program and still 6 years out from having to think about college. But if you ask her, her answer is "it depends" - on the cost of education, what she wants to do, what education is required, is there a positive payback on the education. Hmm, I think I answer too many of her questions straight up.

reply to post by Annee

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea and one that is based on merit by the sound of it. Perhaps that is one solution and it is how things work here for private Universities. Slots are so limited though, the exam scores are only one criteria, even if they're just about perfect in score.

The problem is that in most countries, as I've come to learn, University/College is something that IS actually an extension of public schooling and thus, just part of the regular budgeting for education in the nation. Here though... Well, the Comm College I'm in is running me a local resident rate of about $2,100 + labs and books per semester. That's simply a 2yr and it's among the very lowest in cost for the state of Missouri, as it just happened. I didn't choose it for cost, but for reputation and quality as seen by the local employers.

So, pushing kids who don't want to be there by forcing the application and aid is just wrong. Why wouldn't they go? Yet...what are the odds those going that way make it? By the graduation rate I quoted in my OP, I'd say the chances are low.....and with the debt already established for them.

Yeah, but when financial aid and the colleges start to deny them. They will start to have a feeling of WHY???? I don't know why? You tell me. And maybe they will become more determined to get ACCEPTED, rather then DENIED. Maybe they need to see it on paper.

No one said they have to go to college, they just have to begin the process of higher learning. Who cares? We had classes in HS where you had to research and apply to schools, not seeing where the sky is falling yet

No one should be forced or coerced to go to college in anyway shape or form. College is not meant for everyone especially in it's current state and I am not talking about price even though that's an issue. College needs to be deregulated and opened up to competition as much as possible in order to improve it's quality which is currently dismal.

In terms of cost the major factor behind the increasing tuition is the "90/10" rule that is involved in the government funding of private for profit institutions.

First a link to a better understand of the 90/10 rule: "90/10" Rule

What is the 90/10 rule? Basically its a limitation on the percentage of government funding that can be applied to private institutions. What it says is that a private institution must not allow the percentage of government funding to exceed 90% of their income for more than 2 years or they lose all possibility of government grants, loans, etc.

As you would think the government tends to push that 90% marker with the amount of guaranteed loans and grants they give out. The easiest way for a student to get such money these days is to get it from the government of course. This causes a problem for private institutions because government tends to give the students loan amounts that meet or exceed that 90% marker. What happens when the government funding exceeds 90%? Well, you wouldn't want to turn that money away now would you... no of course not. The only solution of course is to raise the tuition price enough that you won't meet or exceed that marker.

Now you may think the problem is solved, but not quite. What happens after this is that the government says hey, those students are having to take out bigger private loans and or pay more out of pocket for higher education... that's not right, lets increase the loan amounts so students can still afford to go. Guess what happens next... the private college can see this increase in loan money coming in and that amount once again starts pushing that 90% marker. So guess what, the private college has no choice but to increase tuition costs once again to account for the increase in government loan amounts. Do you see a rinse and repeat cycle occurring here? You should, because that is exactly what is occurring.

Okay, so we know the main reason why private tuition is going up, but what about state sponsored colleges? This is much simpler than the 90/10 rule in that the staff in the state colleges could easily switch over to the private institutions if they would get better pay wouldn't they

So guess why the state sponsored colleges tuition keeps rising... that's right they are increasing the amount payed to staff and possibly expanding the staff. They also spend it on the hardware and grounds to maintain modern standards. They always try to keep the income/benefits competitive with the private institutions. This cost of increasing staff payroll is overall minor and therefore the rising tuition costs of public institutions can be much less than private institutions.

Overall, the reason college prices are increasing is due to government funding combined with regulation. Prevent the government funding and regulation of college institutions and you should see prices fall after allowing the market to adjust itself to this new reality. After prices have fallen to near their bottoms and competition between institutions truly begins we will begin to see some improvements to the quality of higher education.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Annee

 

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea and one that is based on merit by the sound of it. Perhaps that is one solution and it is how things work here for private Universities. Slots are so limited though, the exam scores are only one criteria, even if they're just about perfect in score.

The problem is that in most countries, as I've come to learn, University/College is something that IS actually an extension of public schooling and thus, just part of the regular budgeting for education in the nation.

Americans are a bit spoiled.

I seriously - - - support - - - it is time to Revamp.

I bet I'm going to get all the Back Porch Flag Wavers now - - - attacking me for being Un-American.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I think this is geared more towards getting the money from the students in debt for life. Also it is most probable that it is not so much about the College entrants as it is the trade school or lower education sold as higher career opportunities.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Actually I was just told the other day about how DC is swimming in money. I mean they (the government) is centered in DC and they just borrowed an a#load of money from the FED and printed tons of fiat cash...and all the gobbement jobs are really being increased. They should have the healthiest school budget in the nation.

reply to post by charles1952


While i can certainly understand the problem with government forcing more things on people, it's only an application. As long as the school pays the application fee, or the colleges waive the fee, i see nothing wrong with it. Once a person applies, he or she might be surprised when he or she is accepted--and then WANT to go. This is why it should be affordable.

It doesn't matter if I want people to go to college. What matters is if they want to go to college. They have to decide if it's good for them. If it is, then they decide how much they want. And, as is traditional, if you want something, you pay for it.

True, they have to want it. Perhaps if they actually got accepted, they would want it for themselves. Perhaps if they thought they could actually afford, they might want--be more inclined--to go.

If you want something you pay for it???? This is not a Lexus or a BMW, it's an EDUCATION. It should be affordable, it should not have to be IF you want it you pay whatever price it costs, regardless of price. That is ridiculous. This is not a luxury item. And these kids should not have to bury themselves in loan-debt to get that.

The idea that education is being continually cut is a strange one.

But fairly accurate. Where i live education is continually cut across the board, both primary and secondary education, public university tuition has shot up (almost doubled in 5 years). Teachers laid off, schools closing--because of budget. And most teachers aren't paid enough anyway, IMO.

Education is the FOUNDATION of a prosperous society. It should be easily accessible to all who desire.

We are spending more and more each year, yet our high schools turn out children in the, how to put it politely, "mediocre" rank of developed countries.

Because they do not train and hire teachers properly, and they care more about TEST scores and the positive ratings of said scores than about the education itself. This says nothing, of course, of teachers teaching properly in itself AND also having high test scores but the emphasis is on the SCORES, and it seems that there is almost a re-education of teaching once teachers get hired to emphasize the test scores. There is a HUGE difference between testing and learning.

My school district spends a little over $10,000 per student annually. That's got to be enough.

You base the last sentence on.....what exactly?

[Liquesence Wrote:] These people do not care about education. They only want the NUMBERS to reflect positively on the system

D.C. district schools have a much larger minority population than the rest of the country. If college applications from minorities shoot up, colleges will have to explain why they're not accepting more minorities. Saying they don't have college level skills will only get them branded as racist, and maybe inverstigated by Holder's DOJ.

Decent point about the number of minority applications submitted and the colleges explaining why they're not accepting more; however, i think if it is required for all HS students to apply, that in itself would pretty much officially explain it, so the racist argument would not hold too well.

But, I was actually generalizing in that statement, not talking directly about DC, but which goes back to my point about the test SCORES: it's about the NUMBERS, not the actual education. And this goes back to the minority point. These are people who likely CAN'T afford to go to college, so if they want them to apply--to encourage them to go to college, make it affordable for them. Then they can attend, the ratio will be acceptable, and these kids will get a CHANCE at a higher education.

*******If we would put as much money and emphasis on education as, say, killing people in war, things might turn around.

Well,,,,sigh...

Who will serve me my burgers

Sorry, I could'nt help it......

Requiring someone to do something is pushing the boundaries of freedom in my opinion...................one less freedom of choice...........although I regret not going to college earlier.

This BS! There is no way our government should be involved in this. First, these data bases that are being built will create a new class system controled by the government. Secondly, college has become a business where the student is nothing more than a product to be milked for every dollar the college and banks can get.....

I know that sounds cynical but it is the truth.......