ALL MEMBERS READ:Increased Scrutiny for Aliens & UFO Forum

Originally posted by Frira
And while I use the "upside down moon" as an less controversial example, the fact is (and I do mean "FACT") that many of the conspiracy theories are suitable only for the imaginations of children without adequate reasoning skills to defend their own thoughts-- and I find that cruel.

You see what you did there?

You can debunk all day that the moon is not upside down. I don't think that is the problem. In doing so, you can present facts that support your position.

"many of the conspiracy theories are suitable only for the imaginations of children without adequate reasoning skills to defend their own thoughts" is not a fact that supports the notion that the moon is straight.

That is an ad-hominem attack.

If your statements can stand on their own merits, then just let the evidence speak for itself.


-rrr

My first post was removed because I agreed on page 1 but didn't add more to the conversation. I didn't realize this thread was aimed at seeking discussion

Anyways...I do agree but I also see the point of many of the posters who may have made that "rude" remark. I've only been a member for a short time (had a previous account also), maybe 2 years total but I can tell you that the quality of work being posted has gone down hill extremely fast in just that short time. I can't imagine how those posters feel that have been long time members. Let's be honest...the search function is hit & miss. I sometimes forget to even use it myself.

Originally posted by rickyrrr

Originally posted by Frira
And while I use the "upside down moon" as an less controversial example, the fact is (and I do mean "FACT") that many of the conspiracy theories are suitable only for the imaginations of children without adequate reasoning skills to defend their own thoughts-- and I find that cruel.

You see what you did there?

You can debunk all day that the moon is not upside down. I don't think that is the problem. In doing so, you can present facts that support your position.

"many of the conspiracy theories are suitable only for the imaginations of children without adequate reasoning skills to defend their own thoughts" is not a fact that supports the notion that the moon is straight.

That is an ad-hominem attack.

No. It is not.

Those posting that the moon is upside down are brand-spanking-new to paying attention to the sky. They have an understandably naive concept that "this side is up" is what they see as "up" when it rises just after sunset (the rising full moon is the image most people think of-- because that is the one most people will notice).

Of course if they watched that moon through the night and on toward sunrise, the moon will have "turned upside down" where the "top" as it rose in the east is now the "bottom" as it sets in the west.

So when others respond without explaining that, but and instead, respond with, "Yeah-- there have been many reports of that-- and I think the government and NASA are trying to cover it up because it is not in the mainstream news..." then they are children, or grossly ignorant, or hoaxers seeking to deceive.

Children and the grossly ignorant are innocent of cruelty in such threads; but the others are not. Gross ignorance, in this case, is posting as if one understands without having bothered to either observe or think it through. Observing the moon and thinking through what differences one sees ought to be requisite before posting a thread... if one is an adult.

I did not use the word "childish." I used the word "child." A child is a young human being who adults have some responsibility to protect and nurture. Therefore, referring to a child as "child" is not an attack-- it is the proper use of a descriptive noun.

That you, presumably an adult, read the word "child" and assumed I was referring to you as a slap-- is your problem-- and not mine to address.

If your statements can stand on their own merits, then just let the evidence speak for itself.


-rrr

edit on 22-11-2011 by rickyrrr because: grammar

My statements on those threads do explain the apparent "upside down moon." And those trying to mislead generally go away and the thread ends. That is likely due to the fact that the evidence I supply to them speaks for itself.

So hop down off my back.

Lastly, You make MY point. That explaining what another has observed and then incorrectly interpreted is neither an "ad hominem attack," or even a "debunking." Where I come from, it is called teaching.

Why should I have to take guff for explaining the obvious? That is not a rhetorical question. I really want an explanation.



****

On a lighter note which makes the point.

When I was four, in 1964, I was trying to figure out how the images got into the television. When my Dad came home, I told him I thought the images somehow got inside the television through the cord that plugged into the wall.

My Dad smiled and began trying to explain that invisible waves were sent from an antenna and that the two shiny antennae picked up the signals and other things inside the TV turned them into images.

Invisible waves? Come on now!

I stepped behind the television set and unplugged it and the picture went away. I said, "See?"

My Dad answered, with a sigh, and said, "Yeah. You are right, Frira, the pictures come through the cord that plugs into the wall."

Of course, after dinner, he showed me the antenna on our radio, and when out driving showed me the transmission towers-- because he knew I wanted to understand and my Dad was a loving father who could not embrace ignorance.

I have often speculated that hoaxers do not have children. The cruelty of intentionally misleading someone trying to find answers would never occur to a man who has a child. Both responsibility and love make it impossible. So I sometimes sigh when I read a thread by someone who is so certain of their limited understanding, and remember my own television experiment. Then I also think, "That person creating that thread might be my own son."

On the other hand, the hoaxers deriving some twisted pleasure from intentionally deceiving the young and/or naive-- I think that there is no punishment too severe for such cruelty. If I can grind them into the ground, my rage is just-- even if against the rules.

reply to post by jerzee14


It's a good thing to happens because make people think before posting. This is not tweeter, it is a place to debate and get feedback to what you saying, after all it is a discussion board. Otherwise you can just create a blog and disable the comment part.

And because we are in discussion board, we are required to use our brains/logic to discuss a topic. If you make a statement/claim you need to back up your claim (except skunk work/gray area forums).

If you don't want to get any feedback create a blog and be happy.

reply to post by Frira


WOW your seem to have gotten really worked up. No I did not take your post personally. May I remind you we are discussing a hypothetical and deliberately absurd conspiracy theory, so I did not take what you said as a slap, because for your information, I happen to believe the moon is fairly straight.

We may agree to disagree, but, while there are theories here that I think are utterly ridiculous posted here on ATS, he point I am making is that the discussion is only bound to diverge by talking about the person's background or the motives rather than the subject. You either don't think this is the case or I have misunderstood.

-rrr

I know that I'm a new posting here, but a LONG TIME lurker, but I too hope that the civility will last!

The endless cycle of "here it is", then the alternate view, and then the personal attack from both sides is tiresome. Sure it was fun when the interweb first started, but its long since dark.

Here's hoping for civility!

Derek

Originally posted by rickyrrr
reply to post by Frira

 

No I did not take your post personally.

Do we have to discuss this?

If you didn't take my post personally, then why did you accuse me of making a personal attack?

I considered your accusation, "You see what you did there? ... ... That is an ad-hominem attack. " to be calling into question my character, and I responded. You were wrong. Let it go.

May I remind you we are discussing a hypothetical and deliberately absurd conspiracy theory,

I was actually giving a real example. There have been at least two "upside down moon" threads in the last month.

[The] point I am making is that the discussion is only bound to diverge by talking about the person's background or the motives rather than the subject.

Good for you. Go and do likewise.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Kudo cheers and applause to you.
Thank you for this thread.
Gosh skeptic people do you really think cavemen built the Great Pyramids of Giza?
The pyramids in Cancun? Statues in Asia built 3000 years before Christ?
It is right in front of our faces and people still want proof?
You are so correct with your thread and I think the reason why skeptics are so eager to jump in and debunk is because grasping the entire concept of this reality is freightening.
The thought of being watched or monitored by something more intelligent than ourselves.
Life beyond plant Earth exsists. Knowing this is a true blessing in my life.
If an individual can grasp the concept of combining buddhism, Judeo-Christianity and pretty much every other religion on the Earth in to one idea of life beyond this planet, you have it, thats your disclosure, right in front of you.
Disclosure is that 100 year old church on the street corner in Anywhere, USA and the 500 year old church in Vatican City. It's about that simple. . . really


hello? are you still there?

Originally posted by diamount
Excellent news. All I did in my first two years on ATS was visit that forum but the rampant trolls and people who were overcritical made me go there only once a week if that.

It is actually sad when you think of the individual who wakes up in the morning, and logs in to ATS with the sole intent of ridiculing another individual who has had a real experience they would like to sort out or glean advice on.

Originally posted by Blue Shift

Originally posted by CosmicWaterGate
_with_that_said_ _ _ let's_ get_real_ about_ _ _ 'The_Disclosure_Project_ _ _

Disclosure already happened. The White House said the other day that they didn't have any evidence that UFOs were alien craft, or evidence of any aliens at all, and so they obviously didn't have any contact with them.

There's the official White House statement, aka disclosure. That should settle the matter once and for all.

I think this will only be like trying to put out a fire with gasoline..

reply to post by Frira


My profuse apology for what seems to have caused a great stir. I did not know there were upside-down moon threads (and I share your sentiment that they are absurd)

As I said before in my previous post, apparently I misunderstood and read your words without the context, because, clearly, in the wrong context to assume somebody is unable to reason or a child would be insulting, surely you must agree on that?

And I can reiterate that I did not take your post personally, because I am pretty sure that none of your posts prior were directed at me.

Hopefully you can understand how such a misunderstanding is possible and not some kind of personal attack towards you personally, I don't know anything about you either.

Upon further reading though, you express a desire to grind into the ground those that spread that type of ignorance, even if it goes against T & C. My question to you would be, how do you hope that could improve the nature of discussion in ATS?

Since I'm fairly sure you will want to have the last word, by all means, go for it.

-rrr

Originally posted by kimsie
...Gosh skeptic people do you really think cavemen built the Great Pyramids of Giza?
The pyramids in Cancun? Statues in Asia built 3000 years before Christ?
It is right in front of our faces and people still want proof?...

Cavemen? Please expand on this.

Originally posted by rickyrrr
reply to post by Frira

 

My profuse apology for what seems to have caused a great stir. I did not know there were upside-down moon threads (and I share your sentiment that they are absurd)

As I said before in my previous post, apparently I misunderstood and read your words without the context, because, clearly, in the wrong context to assume somebody is unable to reason or a child would be insulting, surely you must agree on that?

And I can reiterate that I did not take your post personally, because I am pretty sure that none of your posts prior were directed at me.

Hopefully you can understand how such a misunderstanding is possible and not some kind of personal attack towards you personally, I don't know anything about you either.

Upon further reading though, you express a desire to grind into the ground those that spread that type of ignorance, even if it goes against T & C. My question to you would be, how do you hope that could improve the nature of discussion in ATS?

Since I'm fairly sure you will want to have the last word, by all means, go for it.

-rrr

Ah-Ha! The source of honest misunderstanding has been revealed. Cool!

As to the desire to grind into the ground someone who intentionally misleads another-- my sense of justice is good. My discipline is usually good-- and in that, knowing I am not the authority; but when the authority is silent or appears to be consenting to those intentionally misleading posts, I'll get mean.

Nature abhors a vacuum, and I abhor injustice, so tend to step in when I think I should. I do that in real life-- no reason to be otherwise here.

Great to learn that we are not at odds.

reply to post by kimsie


The idea that humanity suddenly jumped from nomadic tribes to building the Giza Pyramids is a myth - the peoples of Egypt slowly become more proficient over time. I recommend checking out the mastabas, along with the Red & Bent Pyramids.

On topic, I'm glad for this - the snarky behavior on both sides was beginning to become off-putting.

Originally posted by SuperKawaiiNibiru
reply to post by kimsie

 

The idea that humanity suddenly jumped from nomadic tribes to building the Giza Pyramids is a myth - the peoples of Egypt slowly become more proficient over time. I recommend checking out the mastabas, along with the Red & Bent Pyramids.

On topic, I'm glad for this - the snarky behavior on both sides was beginning to become off-putting.

Yeah. The Egyptians had over 1000 years of experience building mastabas, stacked mastabas (like the Stepped Pyramid), and small pyramids -- with many failures along the way -- before gaining enough experience to build the Great Pyramid.

I mean, if aliens did it, then why do we have a more than 1000-year historical progression from mastaba to Great Pyramid? 1000 years of experience building those sorts of things is a lot. One would assume the Egyptians could learn Pyramid-building techniques over that time without alien intervention.

(...oh, and they Ancient Egyptians certainly weren't cavemen)

Originally posted by kimsie

Kudo cheers and applause to you.
Thank you for this thread.
Gosh skeptic people do you really think cavemen built the Great Pyramids of Giza?
The pyramids in Cancun? Statues in Asia built 3000 years before Christ?
It is right in front of our faces and people still want proof?
You are so correct with your thread and I think the reason why skeptics are so eager to jump in and debunk is because grasping the entire concept of this reality is freightening.

The thread is directed towards sceptics and believers equally. Have you took it that it's against sceptics only? Also, all those things you mentioned were created by mankind using enginuity and pure graft, well, let's say it's highly probable. Their method of construction may have been lost but that doesn't equate to alien intervention in the slightest. Genuises did exist all those thousands of years ago and I believe all those structures you mentioned were well within the capabilities of man.

Originally posted by Hawkwind.

Originally posted by kimsie

Kudo cheers and applause to you.
Thank you for this thread.
Gosh skeptic people do you really think cavemen built the Great Pyramids of Giza?
The pyramids in Cancun? Statues in Asia built 3000 years before Christ?
It is right in front of our faces and people still want proof?
You are so correct with your thread and I think the reason why skeptics are so eager to jump in and debunk is because grasping the entire concept of this reality is freightening.

The thread is directed towards sceptics and believers equally. Have you took it that it's against sceptics only?

The same thing was mentioned a while back. It's wrong a closed-minded to dismiss a skeptic and call him names like "disinfo agent" and "government shill" simply because thewy say things that disagree with a believers pre-conceived notions.

Also, all those things you mentioned were created by mankind using enginuity and pure graft, well, let's say it's highly probable. Their method of construction may have been lost but that doesn't equate to alien intervention in the slightest. Genuises did exist all those thousands of years ago and I believe all those structures you mentioned were well within the capabilities of man.

Exactly. Ancient Egyptians were humans just like us, who were equally as intelligent as us, with the same brains we have, and with the exact same capacity for problem solving and ability to be be clever.

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
Yeah. The Egyptians had over 1000 years of experience building mastabas, stacked mastabas (like the Stepped Pyramid), and small pyramids -- with many failures along the way -- before gaining enough experience to build the Great Pyramid.

And then what did they progress to after building the Great Pyramid? Smaller pyramids? Less precise tolerances? Did they build the Sphinx then wait thousands of years before building another significant structure?

I don't think you have as clear a picture as you pretend. It's only an opinion, but it's a correct one.

Originally posted by Pimander

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
Yeah. The Egyptians had over 1000 years of experience building mastabas, stacked mastabas (like the Stepped Pyramid), and small pyramids -- with many failures along the way -- before gaining enough experience to build the Great Pyramid.

And then what did they progress to after building the Great Pyramid? Smaller pyramids? Less precise tolerances? ...

Yes and no. Yes, the did build a few more pyramids after the Great Pyramid (at least for a little while), but no -- they stopped building huge, grand Pyramidal tombs.

The reasons they stopped building pyramids after the Middle Kingdom is not a mystery, and was because of several factors:

1. Change in theological ideals and ideas of the afterlife. Egyptians during the Middle Kingdom believed in the sun god Ra (or Re) and that worship included ideas of the afterlife that included burying the dead in above-ground tombs. After the fall of the Middle Kingdom and the beginning of the New Kingdom, Egyptians theology shifted to a worship of Amon-Re. Amon-Re is associated with Osiris, and the worship of Osiris included burying the dead in the ground, thus the New Kingdom's use of underground tombs, rather than above-ground tombs.

2. Grave Robbers. This switch to underground tombs also had a practical reason, not just a theological reason. The pyramids and other tombs had all been raided and robbed, even during The Middle Kingdom times and into the New Kingdom times. An underground tomb -- such as the tombs in the Valley of the Kings -- were hidden from robbers. Much more practical.

3. Economics. The Great Pyramid was a grand building, but it was an hugely expensive project. Using a word we would use today, some people would have called it a boondoggle. Great building from an art and architecture perspective, but a bad building from an economic perspective.

4. Conquest. Some of the reasons for the theological shift that occurred from the Middle Kingdom to the new Kingdom has to do with the fact that many different peoples from different places and cultures merged/melded/conquered parts of Egypt. It's not like Egypt had no other cultures hwo came in after the great Pyramid and influenced the existing Egyptian culture.

Conquest can do that. The ruling group of people who liked to build pyramids were supplanted by a ruling group of people who didn't care for Pyramids -- and the knowledge as to exactly how they did it could have been lost during these many changes of power.

Every great cultural "high time" comes to an end, usually due to cultural changes, economic/technological changes, and conquest. Asking why the Egyptians stopped building pyramids is sort of like asking why the Romans didn't build more Colosseums, or asking why people in the Northeast US didn't build a more canals to replace the Erie canal.

Lately the threads have been pretty weak. I hope this helps stimulate new well thought out threads. I spend less and less time lurking on this forum anymore. even just the title of the threads are turn off as of late