A question for people of ATS

Sceptic Overlord seems to have made provision on this site for people of all faiths. And though I somewhat see your point when it comes to blatant proselytizing. The same could be said for those who are blatant evolutionists or atheists. They are very vocal and adamant about their beliefs just as the christians and others on here. That could be seen as proselytizing too.

So to remove the posts of one, and not the other seems hypocritical and lopsided to me. Everyone believes their way is the right way. And most believe they have the goods to back up their claims. Whether they do or not.

I can only suggest one stay out of the religious forum if it offends the senses. At least that way, one isn't just looking to be offended.

reply to post by JibbyJedi


Perfect example of one that WOULD violate the T&C, as it is a call to JOIN a very specific religion (and yes, Jedi is an official state-recognized religion in at least one place)....

But, since it serves an illustrative example, letting it stay for now.

reply to post by Gazrok


I will do that.
The only thing i point out is that the T&C is a legal contractual agreement which needs to be taken for face value and what is written, so how could it have a spirit?

reply to post by ShortMemory

these threads you speak of do get moved to skunk works in most cases

Did you conduct an unbiased study which lead you to this conclusion? Sorry, until I see evidence this post should go into Skunkworks.

I kid, I kid.

But really, can't we just employ user discretion? It's simple really. You don't find it empirical enough for your viewing pleasure? Move along brah... *POOF* Problem gone!

reply to post by ShortMemory


Legal code also has a spirit of the law interpretation that judges are called upon to rule each and every day...to then establish precedent, forming the basis of other laws, etc.

The "spirit" of the law is paramount to the letter of it....but, if you challenge it, you just have to be sure to win.

Sceptic Overlord seems to have made provision on this site for people of all faiths. And though I somewhat see your point when it comes to blatant proselytizing. The same could be said for those who are blatant evolutionists or atheists. They are very vocal and adamant about their beliefs just as the christians and others on here. That could be seen as proselytizing too.

Agreed. And I even had my phase of militant atheism, so I can certainly identify it when I see it.

Originally posted by Klassified
Sceptic Overlord seems to have made provision on this site for people of all faiths. And though I somewhat see your point when it comes to blatant proselytizing. The same could be said for those who are blatant evolutionists or atheists. They are very vocal and adamant about their beliefs just as the christians and others on here. That could be seen as proselytizing too.

So to remove the posts of one, and not the other seems hypocritical and lopsided to me. Everyone believes their way is the right way. And most believe they have the goods to back up their claims. Whether they do or not.

I can only suggest one stay out of the religious forum if it offends the senses. At least that way, one isn't just looking to be offended.

How come no one ever mentions SimonGray, hes a site owner too..
anyway
i think evolution and atheism is sort of different because it bases itself in evidence, and i dont see many posts regarding those topics or similar ones that blatently tell people to believe it.

well its hard to stay out but i thought thats why they made religion forums and conspiracy forums a seperate thing?

Originally posted by ShortMemory

Should a majority of ATS threads regarding religion be removed?

15e.) Recruitment/Solicitation:
i) You will not use your membership in the Websites for any type of recruitment to any causes whatsoever. You will not Post, use the chat feature, use videos, or use the private message system to disseminate advertisements, chain letters, petitions, pyramid schemes, or any kind of solicitation for political action, social action, letter campaigns, or related online and/or offline coordinated actions of any kind.
ii) You will not Post, use the chat feature, use videos, or use the private message system to collect or ask for the personal information (data mining) about forum members, including email addresses and "real life" names, in any manner whatsoever, or for any reason whatsoever.
iii) You will not Post, use the chat feature, use videos, or use the private message system to solicit members of the Websites on behalf of another message board, online community or competitor. You will not attempt to use your membership to encourage or lure other members in any way to other websites or discussion boards in competition with TAN. Doing so will result in removal of your Post(s) and immediate termination of your account.

15).
Posting: You will not Post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate. You will not solicit personal information from any member. You will not use information gathered from this website to harass, abuse or harm other people.

I see a lot of religious posts that are for nothing more then solicitation of said religion. They include no factual information and I see no reason for religious propaganda to be spread on a website that prides itself on evidence.. At the least all religious posts that do not contain factual information should be moved to Skunk Works.
I would love to hear from a mod on the issue, considering that the T&C seems to agree with what im saying.

shortmem.

eta: i had a quick look over the t&c and am not sure if theres anything else relevant to this issue but if someone could point something out that would be great - ATS T&C

edit on 24-10-2011 by ShortMemory because: (no reason given)

SHALOM

1: First Question "I" have is... What is Religare???

2: Second Question "I" have is... What is not Religare???

Mr X-ULTRA/CULTURE... 3: Question "I" have too... Do U use €Money$... to log on and post this topic ... May Peace & Logic... be with U ... and stop biting Urr Witty Toung

Originally posted by JibbyJedi
Join the Jedi order.

We don't ask for any money.
We don't worship anyone or anything.
We don't need to judge, hate, love, or lie to others.
We don't require you to do anything.
We welcome all and we care for all.
We feel with our hearts not our brains.

The Force has infinite love for all, not the love of self or others, unconditional love for all of creation.

If you ask me, it sounds like the best choice of the crap that's out there we have to choose, or not choose from.

edit: I'm assuming my "join the Jedi order" is not a violation of the T&C considering it is a mythical creation of someone's imagination.... kind of like all religions seem to be.

edit on 24-10-2011 by JibbyJedi because: (no reason given)

I was required to watch all the Star Wars movies three times each before I could join.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by ShortMemory

 

Legal code also has a spirit of the law interpretation that judges are called upon to rule each and every day...to then establish precedent, forming the basis of other laws, etc.

The "spirit" of the law is paramount to the letter of it....but, if you challenge it, you just have to be sure to win.

look im no legal expert but i highly doubt legal documents would be written in such a scrupulus manner if they could be changed via spirit. theres a reason legal documents are taken for written value and that is liablilty, so claiming that spirit could change a rule might put you guys in a legal problem one day.

im not trying to challenge law just trying to follow it

Nearly every thread is written to expose others to an idea they have formulated, or a situation they believe may be upcoming or has occurred in the past leading the writer of the thread to a conclusion they want to show you.
They want to show it to you to possibly persuade you they are right or your idea is accepted....
so you want to remove one area of this site because you do not agree with it? Would you be the same ones that would like to remove a thread because it rubs you the wrong way?
Where tolerance is removed, only chaos remains
Where love is removed there is only hatred
Where peace is removed there is only war
Where a voice is removed there is only silence.
did I get it right? You wish to remove religion as a source or explanation for anything on this site?
Wherever a philosophical view is removed, nothing remains.............
DH

reply to post by CosmicWaterGate

SHALOM 1: First Question "I" have is... What is Religare??? 2: Second Question "I" have is... What is not Religare??? Mr X-ULTRA/CULTURE... 3: Question "I" have too... Do U use €Money$... to log on and post this topic ... May Peace & Logic... be with U ... and stop biting Urr Witty Toung

what is law?
what is not law?
do u pay money to pray to god?

logic is with me, my tongue is not bit nor witty my son of ignorance.. deny, deny!

I personally do not have a problem with people who post their OPINIONS concerning their religious beliefs. It is through these filters that they observe and experience the world. I guess I look at ATS as a site that provides many different angles through many different posters.

If somebody posts something I disagree with, I have the freedom to either not read it or post and say I disagree. A person's philosophy is not something to stress over, unless they start insulting me personally. Just my six cents (adjusted for inflation).

reply to post by ShortMemory


SO is more active on the site, and does a lot of the coding for the site is probably why he kind of represents the big three.

i think evolution and atheism is sort of different because it bases itself in evidence, and i dont see many posts regarding those topics or similar ones that blatently tell people to believe it.

But to anyone religious, they see their personal experience and faith as evidence in their own life. From their perspective, you don't see the evidence, because you haven't experienced it.

To many of them, evolution is based in pseudo-science and fairy tales. And us atheists are just godless heathens. It works both ways. Its a bit of a "sticky wicket".

Personally, I come here for exposure to all of it. I don't want anything left out. Science, history, aliens, gods, paranormal, predictions, and so on. It's part of what makes this site so awesome.

But that's just me.

reply to post by ShortMemory


While not a lawyer, I have had my share of law and business law college courses.

You are correct, in that in law, one does try to make it as specific as possible. However, times change, and laws evolve, and that understanding is integral to our legal structure, which is why our laws are based on case law. Even though as specific as possible, we constantly must weigh the letter of the law to the spirit of the law, when a given case doesn't neatly fit into the defined code.

However, as a private site, we have the benefit of then also saying, well, we know what we intended, so we try to communicate that as much as possible.

Bottom line, is that we can't legislate posts that try to convert people to an IDEA or philosophy. If that were so, it would set a dangerous precedent (see? the foundation of law), that one could use to then apply to ANY other idea on the site.

So, we have to limit this rule as applying only to an active call for JOINING a specific cause or group. It's all about interpretation...and if at any point on a specific thread/post, you disagree with an interpretation, then you have tools as a member to have it reviewed by multiple staff members (or just call out the particular mod).

Originally posted by ShortMemory
reply to post by CosmicWaterGate

 

SHALOM 1: First Question "I" have is... What is Religare??? 2: Second Question "I" have is... What is not Religare??? Mr X-ULTRA/CULTURE... 3: Question "I" have too... Do U use €Money$... to log on and post this topic ... May Peace & Logic... be with U ... and stop biting Urr Witty Toung

what is law?
what is not law?
do u pay money to pray to god?

logic is with me, my tongue is not bit nor witty my son of ignorance.. deny, deny!

OUCH!!! ...


GIVE ME CONTROL OF A NATIONS MONEY... AND "I" CARE NOT WHO MAKES HER LAWS... OR WHAT RELIGARE THEY WORSHIP
----- Mayer N. Rothschild

Mr X-ULTRA/RASPBERRY...

reply to post by CosmicWaterGate

religion is not different a form of control then money

also..

15i.) Language: The dominant language of our users and moderation staff is English. In order to promote a smooth-running environment and fair enforcement of the Terms and Conditions of Use (and the Terms and Conditions of Membership), you agree not to Post or chat in any language other than English.

reply to post by Gazrok


wouldnt it be against the spirit of rules to go against the specific rules that people agreed to?
dont get me wrong i understand what i agreed to (not that i read the ats rules in particular but i knew what to expect in them):

(These terms and conditions are subject to change without notice. Please refer to them often to stay up-to-date with our current board policies.) 



but yeah if its about spirit then it would be spiritless to use rights like these?

reply to post by Klassified

SO is more active on the site, and does a lot of the coding for the site is probably why he kind of represents the big three.

yeah i know, only mentioned it because i just realised there was another site owner when making this thread.. good on him for working the code, id hate to do that on such a big website. but i guess thats why ats has ads right? haha

But to anyone religious, they see their personal experience and faith as evidence in their own life. From their perspective, you don't see the evidence, because you haven't experienced it. To many of them, evolution is based in pseudo-science and fairy tales. And us atheists are just godless heathens. It works both ways. Its a bit of a "sticky wicket". Personally, I come here for exposure to all of it. I don't want anything left out. Science, history, aliens, gods, paranormal, predictions, and so on. It's part of what makes this site so awesome. But that's just me.

thats the problem with religion, it gives credit to ideas pulled out of thin air. but consider it in a legal sense.. if someone was to kill someone and say god told them too they would be sent to jail, so its obvious that when it comes down to the point religious experience is not fact or evidence.
i know what some people think of science but its hard to argue that when we are bringing the evidence to the table already..
i know what you mean, ats is very diverse and i think if you take everything with a grain of salt you can learn more in a day then schoolk every taught me in the last 5 years i was there haha

reply to post by ShortMemory


Again though, the fact that they could change without notice reflects that like the law, the terms and conditions are an evolving entity.

However, all I can do on your original point, is state my opinion as both staff, and a member. If you really feel it should be addressed as a matter of board policy, vs. just a discussion, please post it (or ask me to move it) to the Board Business forum if you like. (where more staff and admins will see it)

I've tried to spell out that it's the drive for recruitment, instructions on joining, etc. that are really what makes for a violation of the T&C. If you look further at the rule, you'll see that a main focus is also to avoid data mining, etc. Evangelism really doesn't go there, in the vast majority of threads, but instead try to convert people to an idea. In the end, isn't EVERY post on here trying to convert the reader to the author's way of thinking?

If we outlawed that, there'd be no site!

reply to post by ShortMemory

If that were the case a majority of ALL posts would have to be removed! Seeing as how a lot of people make posts that try to convince others of UFOs, aliens, NWO, killer asteroids and comets, the end of the world, WTC conspiracy, and a plethora of other subjects that a lot of people do not agree with due to the issue of insufficient proof.

The reason things are deemed "conspiracy theories" (a lot of what this site is about) is because there isn't enough hard proof for the theories to be deemed as FACT. A lot (if not most) of these theories are believed by a huge number of people and taken on their faith backed by what are considered by them personally to be facts. What YOU deem to be facts and what OTHERS deem to be facts is entirely subjective and personal to the individual.

It is my personal belief that if religious posts were to be banned it would detract from ATS, not improve it. Freedom of speech is for ALL. If you do not wish to read any religious threads there is a function which allows you to remove them all from your sight. If it bothers you so much maybe you should utilize this function.

As Momma always said "If you don't like what's on change the dang channel!"