Greek parliament approves measures

Greek parliament approves measures

www.irishtimes.com

The Greek parliament approved a painful set of austerity measures tonight, defying violent protests in central Athens and a general strike which shut down much of the country.

Papandreou won the parliamentary vote with 154 votes in favour and 144 against...

The victory should ensure the European Union and International Monetary Fund release a vital €8 billion loan tranche which the government needs to keep paying its bills past November.

(visit the link for the full news article)

The vote was close, but the outcome was widely expected, despite the mass protests.

But while the loan is expected to go ahead, those who will have to pay for it - the people - are not going to take the outcome lightly. This is literally oil for the fire.

Meanwhile European leaders have realised they are engaged in last-ditch attempts to save the Euro — and, possibly, the European Union itself:

"We are at a critical point, not only for us but for European history. I have never, in my memory, heard before from leaders of major European countries that there is danger of Europe coming apart," Mr Papandreou told a cabinet meeting before the vote.



www.irishtimes.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Well it was also the people who got the advantages of the country living beyonds it's means - low retirement age, high pay, comfy padded civil service jobs, etc.

Sorry Greeks - but you do have to pay your own bills sooner or later!

Say goodbye to the EU my friends.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Regardless of the rights and wrongs of how Greece got into this mess, it's the consequences that are uppermost in most people's minds.

While Europe's leaders grapple with the dilemma of whether or not to keep extending Greece's credit line, banks all across the continent wait with baited breath to see whether Greece finally goes down, pulling them down with it.

But while a massive bailout of Greece is contemplated, there are plenty of others hovering on the brink too. Many believe the Euro is toast.

But the Greek people seem to have realised none of this is doing them any good: from their perspective they just want to default on the debt and start rebuilding. (Here's the background: Why the Greeks don't want the bailout)

reply to post by pause4thought


Yep - the consequences suck - but trying to avoid them is just trying to steal the excess from the rest of the EU

I still say the meltdown begins on Oct. 24th. Lets see if this has any impact on what is going to happen. Doubtful that it will change anything, the EU is in financial trouble, and throwing money at a problem rooted in money will not fix it.

Things are going to get ugly tonight I imagine. Time to load up the streams.

They can only ignore the people for so long. There won't be a country left to steal from if the citizens burn it down.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


The quote “the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist” fits here just in an altered form, let me try: “the greatest trick the Elite ever pulled was convincing the world Greeks destroyed themselves”. I do not doubt that the Greeks lived far beyond their means but who encouraged this? The establishment did, they spout it in campaigns and the media. Then when people buy into it they throw away the money, the system crashes, and all blame is diverted to those want-something-for-nothing crowds that they created while the elite finish sucking the blood out its host.

This way those selfish Greeks, who had no control over the national pocketbook elected leaders that campaigned on spending exuberant amounts of cash so that they win election, ran the nation into the ditch, and gave what was left to their masters, can be blamed. All this while they sneak out the front door carrying the blood and treasure of Greece without anyone even paying attention.

Elected ‘leaders’ just want to lie themselves into power, suck out what blood they can, then depart for the next round of blood suckers to move in. Same song and dance, same people pulling the strings, and same fools falling for it repetitively; when will we learn?

reply to post by Misoir


It doesn't matter who "encouraged it" - did hte elite hold guns to their heads and force them to do so?? No - they did not!

The greeks still took to overspending like ducks to water, and now want everyone else to pay for their excesses while they don't bother.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Who held the purse strings in Greece? Was it the people? No, the elected officials would have spent the nation into oblivion no matter what the people said. They just justified it by campaigning on spending more to help the Greek citizens. Do you think the Greeks had any control over the matter in the end? I am not saying they would have done things any differently but I know this, the politicians were going to spend-spend-spend no matter what.

And as I said in my previous post, the Greeks are in part to blame but should not be the main recipients of blame. The government holds the power and they do what the elites say.

reply to post by Misoir


Right - so the elected officials were elected by the people on the promises of spending too much money.

And you think that therefore the peope are innocent??

come one dude - they deliberately elected those Govts - in fact is was impossible to be elected unless you made those promises - so it was actuall the people who FORCED to Govt to make the promises to overspend or else get thrown out of office!!

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

I agree that the greek people were living a QoL beyond their financial means, but there is more to the greek crisis than that.

Greece's budget was never balanced to abide by the Maastricht-rules for the Euro.
Their budget deficit was at 12% when it should have remained within the 3% limit of of their GDP.
The Greece Government knew this and cheated with the help of Goldman Sachs and other US investment banks to cosmetically lower the true deficit with derivatives trade and billion Dollar credits.

The Government is responsible for this and should be held accountable for financial fraud.

I'm from Germany and IMO we should let Greece and the EU-Zone fall, because its stability was always fake and the concept of a central Currency on very different national budgets and regional economies cant work.

But its not the greek peoples fault.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by Misoir

 

Right - so the elected officials were elected by the people on the promises of spending too much money.

They never said that there would be a budget deficit; they promised more spending to get (re-)elected. It is their responsibility as leaders to balance the budget, if that means higher taxes for that spending then the people need to be informed of that fact. Politicians are supposed to be responsible.

And you think that therefore the peope are innocent??

I never said the people were innocent, go back and read what I had wrote; what I said is that they are not guilty as the politicians and elite.

come one dude - they deliberately elected those Govts - in fact is was impossible to be elected unless you made those promises - so it was actuall the people who FORCED to Govt to make the promises to overspend or else get thrown out of office!!

No, they were as you would say ‘forced to spend’ not overspend. That was their decisions. If they were responsible, as I had said earlier, the message should have been “we cannot spend more unless taxes go up”. You would be surprised how people react when government is honest with them.

Originally posted by Misoir

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by Misoir

 

Right - so the elected officials were elected by the people on the promises of spending too much money.

They never said that there would be a budget deficit; they promised more spending to get (re-)elected. It is their responsibility as leaders to balance the budget, if that means higher taxes for that spending then the people need to be informed of that fact. Politicians are supposed to be responsible.

and the people don't have to be??

you need to apply a little more critical thinking dude - which do you think is goign to get elected - a party that says "we'll spend for you", or one that says "we'll psend for you and we'll up your taxes to pay for it"?

If you think politicians are going to tell the truth to fail to get elected then you are ignoring human natuer and 5000 years of recorded history, and saying the Greek pepole are too stupid to be allowed to vote in the first place!

hear no evil see no evil speak no evil



take no prisoners.



we are watching.

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

I agree that the greek people were living a QoL beyond their financial means, but there is more to the greek crisis than that.

Greece's budget was never balanced to abide by the Maastricht-rules for the Euro.
Their budget deficit was at 12% when it should have remained within the 3% limit of of their GDP.
The Greece Government knew this and cheated with the help of Goldman Sachs and other US investment banks to cosmetically lower the true deficit with derivatives trade and billion Dollar credits.

Yep - no argument.

The Government is responsible for this and should be held accountable for financial fraud.

I also ahve no argument with fraudsters being chucked in jail.

I'm from Germany and IMO we should let Greece and the EU-Zone fall, because its stability was always fake and the concept of a central Currency on very different national budgets and regional economies cant work.

Pretty much irrelevant and personally I don't care either way.

But its not the greek peoples fault.

Greek politicial parties beleived they could not get re-elected if they cut services and increased taxes to meet their obligations - and the Greek people were the ones who pressured tehm into that position.

So IMO you are wrong with this conclusion - they are THE major causal factor in the problem - if they weer prepared to likve within their politicians would not have had the pressure to spend too much. Of cours the politicians didn't HAVE to do so - but there was NO greek political party advocating the required changes - nto the opposition, not the communists, not anyone.

To ignore the political pressure from the electorate is to ignore the most basic reason for the crisis.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

I agree that the greek people were living a QoL beyond their financial means, but there is more to the greek crisis than that.

Greece's budget was never balanced to abide by the Maastricht-rules for the Euro.
Their budget deficit was at 12% when it should have remained within the 3% limit of of their GDP.
The Greece Government knew this and cheated with the help of Goldman Sachs and other US investment banks to cosmetically lower the true deficit with derivatives trade and billion Dollar credits.

Yep - no argument.

The Government is responsible for this and should be held accountable for financial fraud.

I also ahve no argument with fraudsters being chucked in jail.

I'm from Germany and IMO we should let Greece and the EU-Zone fall, because its stability was always fake and the concept of a central Currency on very different national budgets and regional economies cant work.

Pretty much irrelevant and personally I don't care either way.

But its not the greek peoples fault.

Greek politicial parties beleived they could not get re-elected if they cut services and increased taxes to meet their obligations - and the Greek people were the ones who pressured tehm into that position.

So IMO you are wrong with this conclusion - they are THE major causal factor in the problem - if they weer prepared to likve within their politicians would not have had the pressure to spend too much. Of cours the politicians didn't HAVE to do so - but there was NO greek political party advocating the required changes - nto the opposition, not the communists, not anyone.

To ignore the political pressure from the electorate is to ignore the most basic reason for the crisis.

Saldy even within this site as a motto of deny ignorance IT has failed to realise that greece is currently at war within a structured banking order. Its poppulation has no idea and the media has not identified the individuals involved under a law that provides nothing other than protection from prosecution.

Yesterdays revolutionaries are todays terroisits.

Come...lower level 8, we await.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

I agree that the greek people were ignorant towards their economic reality and thus created pressure on their representatives due to uneducated demands.
They are partialy responsible for their ignorance.

Still, to make an educated decission and appropriate demands you need ALL the information.
Since the Government lied to their people about the economic reality (to get re-elected and decieve the EU) they never had the information to make said educated decisions.

However, THE major causal factor in the problem was that the greek Politicians cooked the books to fit Greece into a economic partnership which it was never able to keep up with.

Other improtant factors were the austerity measures (dictated by the EU in exchange for bailouts) that made the greek economy tank without any positive effekt on the GDP (in fact unemployment went up) and not to forget...
the global financial crisis starting in 2007.

There are too many previously unknown factors in this to say its all the greek peoples fault.

So being greedy, when applies to "elite", ,means you are evil and hate the poor. When being greedy while you are "poor" or "middle class" means you are a victim. Ummm...sounds like a nifty little "greedy" double standard.