Archaeologist Argues World's Oldest Temples Were Not Temples at All

Ok, going out on a limb here but, if we are throwing out 'what-ifs' about Gobekli Tepe's purpose, here's mine...

Every new generation, the various tribes got together and used this opportunity to disperse any new info they had learned during their years apart. They also took this time to teach the new generation all the basic skills they needed to survive: building tools/weapons, building shelter, what(and what NOT) to hunt and the skills for doing so efficiently, how to ration/organize when you don't have access to a lot of resources(this one is dependant on what the area was like at the time) AND, of course, the one thing that would have been essential: teamwork.

All of these skills would have been achieved by constructing the individual structures at Gobleki Tepe.

1)Can't carve the stone until you learn how to make the tools to carve with. Which will provide a good basis on learning how to make such tools for use in hunting later on.
2) Learn how to make a solid and lasting shelter by making the structures themselves. Also, while this 'meeting of tribes' is going on, the structure could be used as a kind of communal dormitory.
3)Carve your various prey and predators onto the structure and use these as visual aids when teaching the youngsters how to hunt properly.
4)Build them in an area with limited resources. With but one source of water and very little to no sustainable local wildlife to hunt/gather for food, you'd have to become frugal with what food and water you do have or die. Also, by surviving in such an inhospitable area, you'd have a better perspective on things when you get back to your normal 'stomping grounds' and things get a little lean from time to time. Again, this one is dependant on how lush(or lack thereof)the area was at the various times of construction.
5)To achieve all these things, you'd HAVE to learn to work together and trust that those in charge are wiser than you.
6)Also, on a side note, this might explain why each individual structure was buried after its construction. After all, if what I said above was the purpose for such structures, logically it would have no longer been needed once the elders felt that everyone had learned what could be learned. Besides, no need to leave the structure out in the open so someone could use it like a meso- or neolithic version of Cliff's Notes when the next generation shows up. lol

So, basically what I am saying is that Gobekli Tepe's main purpose might have been as the world's first (vocational) school.

Originally posted by Parta

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

I hadn't thought about it in terms of the combined force, physically. Interesting.

the bulgarian national anthem is pretty good too. very catchy.

When you understand how our ancestors venerated the land, and how, with the rise of the 20th century that was exploited and bastardised into nationalism by fascist political interests, you have the story of genocide right there.

Originally posted by Parta
i don't think there is alot of hieroglyphic depth required. just the story given, the giza complex and some basic orthodox science.

...the magician worshipped the old gods of egypt. predynastic naqada idols are the same as the later nubian el kadada group c culture so that is true
...that underworld should have old god figurines, black topped brown pottery, red pottery, incised pottery, proto-mastabas, head on a plinth tradition, etc etc
...at the time of khufu you could sail TO the underworld thanks to the magician
...the underworld should include a vast flooded plain with three conjoined mountains sticking out of it [2 big 1 small] and another a small distance to the north plus an enclosure where the sphinx is located. [there are alot of other details from other texts regarding exactly what you should physically find in the underworld]
...there should be a genetic relationship between the nubians and the underworld.

Well, by your interpretation, which is obviously far more studied than mine, I would surmise that you are actually describing, quite specifically, Lassithi plain on Crete, and therefore, the Diktean Cave? But obviously that is not in Nubia...hmm...this certainly is very interesting.

Originally posted by Parta
taking everything together and you have something fun to look at maybe? i know it would probably be a terrible thing to actually find the underworld. anticlimactic and disappointing

It would depend, I presume, largely on what you were looking for. And, almost entirely, upon your intentions.

Originally posted by Parta
you can trace great waves of religion flowing across vast geographic areas over vast periods of time so what "alien" might have meant is debatable. there were obviously people who had a huge amount of very ancient knowledge and it would be great to see them appreciated for their efforts to pass it on to us.

I use the term 'alien' to mean an outsider to the group. There were, in all the early city states, right through to the middle-ages, very strict rules and codes governing 'citizenship'. It was very unusual therefore for an outsider to be awarded such honour. Slaves, transient merchants and the such like came and went, but would have been restricted in their movements and interactions. Peoples did not mix. Social classes did not mix.

'He who comes in Peace', also suggests that he came from somewhere that was perhaps in competition with Khufu. Or perhaps, actually more obviously, did you only call on a doctor in war to treat the wounded...? Anyway, Asklepius's cult has it's origins in Anatolia, usually based around curative waters...and having followed several 'ideas' back in time, I tend to find that is where many of them do originate, in the western consciousness that is.

Your interpretation immediately brought to my mind, Crete, but I should imagine that it could easily describe any plateau fed by snow fall from the mountains that surround it. This was apparently what the first Neolithic farmers were looking for when they set off to form their own settlements. The cave was considered essential obviously, to begin with I suppose. As it would. As soon as we had control of fire, we could sleep safely by barring entrance with a fire. Most early temples, especially those dedicated to feminine deities, had a brazier at the entrance. Just as all temples had a bath or basin of water, a good cave would need to have a spring or lake of clean water. These colonists had a purpose to these rituals, their survival depended upon it I would have thought.

Very interesting...

How did they move the stones? Simple. Zeppelins. Filled with hydrogen by passing electricity through sea/marsh water.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

When you understand how our ancestors venerated the land, and how, with the rise of the 20th century that was exploited and bastardised into nationalism by fascist political interests, you have the story of genocide right there.

its strange how some parts of the world are percieved automatically as nationalistic. eastern europe for example. if someone posts something about romania, i guarantee there is a response including "nationalistic" on the first page. the conspiracy theorist in me says we all are not supposed to consider that part of the world as existing before the soviet era. well this is a really big mistake [but good for me].

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Well, by your interpretation, which is obviously far more studied than mine, I would surmise that you are actually describing, quite specifically, Lassithi plain on Crete, and therefore, the Diktean Cave? But obviously that is not in Nubia...hmm...this certainly is very interesting.

...rhadamanthys left crete to judge in the underworld so mythologically there is a problem. [i think the phaistos disk is an explorers/sailors record of what he saw on the shores of the underworld on a day by day basis]
...cretans in all eras can be traced to somewhere else be it the neolithic or the worshippers at the cave so i would look to their ancestors a little farther away where traditions can be found to have started.
...there wouldn't have been a restriction on sailing to crete at anytime i shouldn't think. the magician had to make it possible
...while there is black topped pottery on crete, its very late in date.
...genetically the relationship would be a little surprising maybe
[abstract]
[full read with pictures]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
It would depend, I presume, largely on what you were looking for. And, almost entirely, upon your intentions.

i would just like answers. i would hope there would be some respect for our ancestors plus about a thousand authors who have spent their lives and deaths being laughed at. i would hope too that there would be one less thing to war about if it could be shown we all now pray to a massive cowpen in serbia. it would be cool if science and religion could live together happily ever after. the truth has its own intentions.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I use the term 'alien' to mean an outsider to the group. There were, in all the early city states, right through to the middle-ages, very strict rules and codes governing 'citizenship'. It was very unusual therefore for an outsider to be awarded such honour. Slaves, transient merchants and the such like came and went, but would have been restricted in their movements and interactions. Peoples did not mix. Social classes did not mix.

'He who comes in Peace', also suggests that he came from somewhere that was perhaps in competition with Khufu. Or perhaps, actually more obviously, did you only call on a doctor in war to treat the wounded...? Anyway, Asklepius's cult has it's origins in Anatolia, usually based around curative waters...and having followed several 'ideas' back in time, I tend to find that is where many of them do originate, in the western consciousness that is.

in my mind i see the polynesian fellow sailing around with captain cook. he was an alien everywhere he went but he was a celebrity first and foremost. he had better details of their own stories because he was from the motherland. you could look at herodotus' map and envision the same scenario. on it was a motherland and anyone from there, while technically an alien, was a celebrity first and foremost.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Your interpretation immediately brought to my mind, Crete, but I should imagine that it could easily describe any plateau fed by snow fall from the mountains that surround it. This was apparently what the first Neolithic farmers were looking for when they set off to form their own settlements. The cave was considered essential obviously, to begin with I suppose. As it would. As soon as we had control of fire, we could sleep safely by barring entrance with a fire. Most early temples, especially those dedicated to feminine deities, had a brazier at the entrance. Just as all temples had a bath or basin of water, a good cave would need to have a spring or lake of clean water. These colonists had a purpose to these rituals, their survival depended upon it I would have thought.

Very interesting...

the middle east neolithic farmers where largely of european ancestry who returned to the old home which had flooded finally about 10000bc then mostly drained near on 6400bc.

It resembles some sort of labyrinth...And I believe all ancient cultures viewed the gathering of food in a religious context...

Originally posted by Julie Washington
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Yes Slayer, bravo for thinking outside the box... however, I still don't think that's it. Not that I have any better of a suggestion.

It's because of the elaborate carvings. I can't imagine why the use of the elaborate carvings for an "animal pen". Also, wasn't there some sort of "alter" discovered there?

I love the collaborative minds of ATS.

Me too!!!
I really was not buying into this theory until I read your post...
and thought of one of the old hunting camps my father used to take me to, deep in the Georgia swamps.

There were always trophy racks from deer killed in the past, along with pictures hanging on the walls.
This would be the same as carving pictures on the walls.

We also had a special area with hooks, racks and a table for processing the animals we killed.
Sound like an "altar"?

We sacrificed the animals to please the hunger gods that rumbled in our bellies.

Your post was like a light bulb going off in my head.


I now think this could be a very viable possibility to the use of some of these ancient places.

Originally posted by Parta
its strange how some parts of the world are percieved automatically as nationalistic. eastern europe for example. if someone posts something about romania, i guarantee there is a response including "nationalistic" on the first page. the conspiracy theorist in me says we all are not supposed to consider that part of the world as existing before the soviet era. well this is a really big mistake [but good for me].

I was talking to one of my colleagues today, she's Romanian, and she was telling me the story of the Romania King, and his recent birthday. It was fascinating how the ministers could so unestimate the needs of the people that they represent, and fail to realise their desire to close the door on the criminal totalitarian occupation that was 'communism' in Romania.

I watched, some years ago now, a documentary detailing a series of films shot at the turn of the twentieth century in Europe, documenting the various traditions of the peoples. At that time, many still wore traditional dress and national identity had an entirely different meaning, much more about religious affinities than anything else.

True socialism never had a chance against corporate greed once Hitler showed what his boys could do to it.

Originally posted by Parta

...rhadamanthys left crete to judge in the underworld so mythologically there is a problem. [i think the phaistos disk is an explorers/sailors record of what he saw on the shores of the underworld on a day by day basis]
...cretans in all eras can be traced to somewhere else be it the neolithic or the worshippers at the cave so i would look to their ancestors a little farther away where traditions can be found to have started.
...there wouldn't have been a restriction on sailing to crete at anytime i shouldn't think. the magician had to make it possible
...while there is black topped pottery on crete, its very late in date.
...genetically the relationship would be a little surprising maybe

I'm going to go back and read your previous post when I have more time, I was reading something interesting about the convergence of the Barrow and Bell/Beaker cultures yesterday that mentioned black pottery found in some Victorian era digs. I'm fascinated by this notion of 'long narrow' and 'broad faced' skulls that all the early archaeologists talk about...reminds me of how Bes always sticks out like a sour thumb on Egyptian stellae.

Originally posted by Parta
i would just like answers. i would hope there would be some respect for our ancestors plus about a thousand authors who have spent their lives and deaths being laughed at. i would hope too that there would be one less thing to war about if it could be shown we all now pray to a massive cowpen in serbia. it would be cool if science and religion could live together happily ever after. the truth has its own intentions.

It does.

Originally posted by Parta
in my mind i see the polynesian fellow sailing around with captain cook. he was an alien everywhere he went but he was a celebrity first and foremost. he had better details of their own stories because he was from the motherland. you could look at herodotus' map and envision the same scenario. on it was a motherland and anyone from there, while technically an alien, was a celebrity first and foremost.

Orion was clearly female to the first settlers on the meditteranean islands, who colonised from Asia minor. If you study the symbology from that perspective, it becomes quite clear that she was a navigational tool, and quite possibly what eventually gave the Cretians their edge economically... The tides and winds of the med would have made it impossible to get to some of the islands from certain directions...it may indeed have seemed magical to some when they did. Ritual is how they remembered these quirks.

Originally posted by Parta

the middle east neolithic farmers where largely of european ancestry who returned to the old home which had flooded finally about 10000bc then mostly drained near on 6400bc.

I'm not sure about that, you'll need to expand, if you don't mind.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

I was talking to one of my colleagues today, she's Romanian, and she was telling me the story of the Romania King, and his recent birthday. It was fascinating how the ministers could so unestimate the needs of the people that they represent, and fail to realise their desire to close the door on the criminal totalitarian occupation that was 'communism' in Romania.

I watched, some years ago now, a documentary detailing a series of films shot at the turn of the twentieth century in Europe, documenting the various traditions of the peoples. At that time, many still wore traditional dress and national identity had an entirely different meaning, much more about religious affinities than anything else.

True socialism never had a chance against corporate greed once Hitler showed what his boys could do to it.

i had been dreaming about wondering freely in romania for several years so the first business day after ceaucescu was killed i and my hungarians romanian defector amigo applied for our visas. the last thing the people were was nationalistic. in fact i would say that romanian wasn't a nationality but a profession.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I'm going to go back and read your previous post when I have more time, I was reading something interesting about the convergence of the Barrow and Bell/Beaker cultures yesterday that mentioned black pottery found in some Victorian era digs. I'm fascinated by this notion of 'long narrow' and 'broad faced' skulls that all the early archaeologists talk about...reminds me of how Bes always sticks out like a sour thumb on Egyptian stellae.

the skulls issue has been around for a while. the nest in offnet cave raises questions about the status of the head shapes.
the pottery is specifically the black topped brown that is the thing that defines the egyptian predynatic.

burnished black is indicative of the maadi who were the first metal workers in egypt.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Orion was clearly female to the first settlers on the meditteranean islands, who colonised from Asia minor. If you study the symbology from that perspective, it becomes quite clear that she was a navigational tool, and quite possibly what eventually gave the Cretians their edge economically... The tides and winds of the med would have made it impossible to get to some of the islands from certain directions...it may indeed have seemed magical to some when they did. Ritual is how they remembered these quirks.

have you ever considered the effects on civilization when the north star comes and goes away?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I'm not sure about that, you'll need to expand, if you don't mind.

by 25000bc some of our ancestors were making ceramics, weaving, making amazing art, playing the flute, grinding something starchy with grinds stones, burning coal, making allot of jewellery, worshipping a goddess and providing social support.

you'll note that the y haplogroups that are generally associated with the first farmers are blue.


their home, the middle danube basin was a pretty nice place. well watered and the herds [add aurochs and horses to the mastadons and reindeer] couldn't migrate


but it flooded


and the people had to leave


but after the basin drained or was undammed




the people made a beeline home


interesting read about the problems that have lead to your suprise....
Archaeological Evidence on the Westward Expansion of Farming Communities from Eastern Anatolia to the Aegean and the Balkans
jstor

It's my opinion that they were ancient museums.
2nd line

Originally posted by Parta
i had been dreaming about wondering freely in romania for several years so the first business day after ceaucescu was killed i and my hungarians romanian defector amigo applied for our visas. the last thing the people were was nationalistic. in fact i would say that romanian wasn't a nationality but a profession.

My Romanian colleague, on the King’s birthday, made us a cake, I was away that day, but she saved me some. My colleague told u s, everyone who had a piece of her cake, one by one, the King’s story. So I think I understand what you mean by it being a profession.

Either way, your country-women certainly make very fine cakes.

Originally posted by Parta
the skulls issue has been around for a while. the nest in offnet cave raises questions about the status of the head shapes.

I find it is one of those things that just stops being discussed in ‘plain language’…and I seem to have missed the part where it is explained what the new euphemism is...???

Originally posted by Parta
the pottery is specifically the black topped brown that is the thing that defines the egyptian predynatic.

burnished black is indicative of the maadi who were the first metal workers in egypt.

I did a quick Google, not a lot about the Maadi …but some interesting tit-bits…

Pottery
All pots are shaped by hand. The clay has always a dark hue. Some large storage jars were found in the settlements. There are a few black-topped red pots (indicating contact with the south- Naqada) and many imported vessels from Palestine.
There are many black basalt stone vessels.
Metal
Copper seems to be quite common; some copper adzes were found.

www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk...

And as far as copper was concerned…(my bolding for emphasis)…

The oldest Egyptian copper artefacts - beads and small tools - date to the early 4th millennium. It has been proposed that they were fashioned from native copper which can occasionally be found. According to this (unproved) theory working copper predated its extraction from ore.
Others claim that the metal was extracted from malachite, hydrated copper carbonate occurring in some abundance in Egypt and used as eye paint.
The smelting requires temperatures of about 800° C which cannot be reached in open fires. Its discovery was either the result of a deliberate search for the material they knew as native copper or the serendipitous by-product of glazing steatite, or of firing faience or pottery in a kiln. It has also been suggested that this discovery was not made by the Egyptians themselves. The metal itself was rarely pure. It often contained small amounts of iron, zinc or arsenic.
The objects were generally cast, which is quite difficult to do with copper because of the formation of gas bubbles during the pouring of the metal and its shrinking when it cooled down. Then they were hammered cold to give them their final form. Hammering also increased the metal's hardness comparable to that of very soft modern steel. In later times they prevented the brittleness caused by the hammering by repeated annealing or tempering, i.e. heating the metal to 500 to 700° C, and thus softening it slightly.

www.reshafim.org.il...

So potters, accidently or otherwise, become alchemists during the firing process…makes sense…but another thing that seems potentially interesting…

There was a story that the name was given after the ferries that operated on the Nile side, carrying people across the Nile to the opposite side, hence the name Ma'adi "plural of of the word Ma'adiya معدية, which is Arabic for ferry".

en.wikipedia.org...

And according to this…

Domesticated animals:
cattle, sheep, goats, and pigs; the earliest known example of a donkey

www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk...

…they were the first to domesticate or breed rather, a donkey…presumably for burden…were the Maadi also involved in the import/export business…?

Originally posted by Parta
have you ever considered the effects on civilization when the north star comes and goes away?

Not yet…haha…but I may now that you’ve suggested it.

Originally posted by Parta

by 25000bc some of our ancestors were making ceramics, weaving, making amazing art, playing the flute, grinding something starchy with grinds stones, burning coal, making allot of jewellery, worshipping a goddess and providing social support.

Recent anthropological studies have proposed that about 30,000 years ago there was a significant, and fairly rapid, increase in the number of humans reaching the age of thirty, and in some cases beyond. Having ‘elders’, particularly as grandparents, especially grandmothers, helped ensure that those units that had the extra assistance with the raising of children, flourished and were most successful in passing on their genes. As well as their knowledge.

Originally posted by Parta
you'll note that the y haplogroups that are generally associated with the first farmers are blue.


their home, the middle danube basin was a pretty nice place. well watered and the herds [add aurochs and horses to the mastadons and reindeer] couldn't migrate


but it flooded


and the people had to leave


but after the basin drained or was undammed




the people made a beeline home

Yes, I see what you mean now, thank you for the links, though sadly I only read English so some of the details were lost on me, the visuals were clear enough though.

The rise in the water levels of the Black Sea must have been devastating, especially when salt water began flowing in, which consequently would have meant that when people did return, it was a very changed ecosystem…if they were looking for someplace described to them by their forefathers and mothers, they may have wandered straight on by without recognising it….

Originally posted by Parta
interesting read about the problems that have lead to your suprise....
Archaeological Evidence on the Westward Expansion of Farming Communities from Eastern Anatolia to the Aegean and the Balkans
jstor

I couldn’t access your link I am afraid…but I read a couple of months ago about the Toros and Maros valleys, and the Vindca culture. Similarities in the examples of ‘writing’ found on the seals etc, do suggest an early trade relationship with the Minoans or some kind of filial relationship at the very least…I think the later Etruscans also represent the possibility of a route back round, eventually returning, via expansion, down to Po valley back to the med…many of the farmers who set off originally, over generations, became specialists, and where alluvial clays were worked, there must too have been alluvial metal deposits, and a further specialism was born…presumably…possibly accidentally…

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Either way, your country-women certainly make very fine cakes.

i am canuckian. we have no culture so i'll latch on to anyones.
i never had a cake in romania. it was an entire country with only 1 dish on any restaurant menu and that was pork chop. someone slaughtered a lamb when i bought a farm near timisoara for 300$ cdn and i was devastated. a cake would have been much much better.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I find it is one of those things that just stops being discussed in ‘plain language’…and I seem to have missed the part where it is explained what the new euphemism is...???

there seems to be evidence of the first race war from a nest of round head skulls collected by tardenoisians at the ofnet cave in germany

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

I did a quick Google, not a lot about the Maadi …but some interesting tit-bits…

ma'adi i should have typed. traditionally the union of the maadi and naqada would be considered the birth of dynastic egypt. they were pursuing some interesting idol worship

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Recent anthropological studies have proposed that about 30,000 years ago there was a significant, and fairly rapid, increase in the number of humans reaching the age of thirty

many years ago i read an interesting thesis on the mother goddess being a] mans first expression of biography or b] veneration of the woman who invented cheese. i should imagine cheese would have been a godsend

try this link again

Originally posted by Parta
i am canuckian. we have no culture so i'll latch on to anyones.
i never had a cake in romania. it was an entire country with only 1 dish on any restaurant menu and that was pork chop. someone slaughtered a lamb when i bought a farm near timisoara for 300$ cdn and i was devastated. a cake would have been much much better.

I get a slaughter lamb too, though I'm having to pay for mine. The top boss breeds Herdwick, and it's that time of year, it arrives Tuesday. Very yummy.

Originally posted by Parta
there seems to be evidence of the first race war from a nest of round head skulls collected by tardenoisians at the ofnet cave in germany

I may have read of this in Colin Wilson's The Criminal History of Mankind some years ago, it is sounding vaguely familiar.

Originally posted by Parta
ma'adi i should have typed. traditionally the union of the maadi and naqada would be considered the birth of dynastic egypt. they were pursuing some interesting idol worship

Interesting, but not necessarily unusual. The British Museum have some interesting examples. The interest in anatomical difference seemed, to me, to be a common theme in the earliest, complete, examples of votives and the such like.

Originally posted by Parta
many years ago i read an interesting thesis on the mother goddess being a] mans first expression of biography or b] veneration of the woman who invented cheese. i should imagine cheese would have been a godsend

try this link again

Portability and storablity seem to have been huge factors in the establishment of veneration. I have been wondering about where the ritual of cheese making might be found, hidden. The thing about cheese though is the fact that you do need to maintain a reasonably constant cool temperature to optimise it's longevity. So, one would guess, that it was left and returned to....and sometimes stolen in the meantime...

I have been giving the Northern Star some thought, and reading time. Fascinating, somewhat beyond my current ability to comprehend, hadn't quite realised it's significance, at all even, and then found that it was changeable, and with a high degree of predictability too... Also explains the 'spirals'. What I'm not sure about, is if it ever disappears, it is replaced in procession, but it only, as far as I have can discern, disappears if you pass into the Southern Hemisphere....??? Is that what you meant, or did you mean the change-over from one star being the Pole Star to another? Navigationally it would have meant a readjustment of their bearings, and I can see how it fits into belief systems....but I suppose if you were from the North and suddenly found yourself without the Pole Star, that it must have been very unsettling...I wonder at what position, geographically, it passes out of sight...?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Interesting, but not necessarily unusual. The British Museum have some interesting examples. The interest in anatomical difference seemed, to me, to be a common theme in the earliest, complete, examples of votives and the such like.

That IS interesting!

Coincidentally, I myself also have a keen interest in said differences in anatomy!

Evidence that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Harte

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Interesting, but not necessarily unusual. The British Museum have some interesting examples. The interest in anatomical difference seemed, to me, to be a common theme in the earliest, complete, examples of votives and the such like.

the little dude on the stool with the funny head is not unique but only found 1 other place in the world. you also find cube heads in addition to black topped pottery and a number of other things that would be considered uniquely egyptian. first metalsmiths to boot.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Portability and storablity seem to have been huge factors in the establishment of veneration. I have been wondering about where the ritual of cheese making might be found, hidden. The thing about cheese though is the fact that you do need to maintain a reasonably constant cool temperature to optimise it's longevity. So, one would guess, that it was left and returned to....and sometimes stolen in the meantime...

cheese is a cave thing. i believe the thesis was written at the time of the paleodiet craze... how did she get so big if it wasn't dairy. where did the fat in her diet come from? it certainly indicates a more settled type of life but the ROM says paleo european folks only had to hunt and gather for 2 hours a day and moving around was optional..

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I have been giving the Northern Star some thought, and reading time. Fascinating, somewhat beyond my current ability to comprehend, hadn't quite realised it's significance, at all even, and then found that it was changeable, and with a high degree of predictability too... Also explains the 'spirals'. What I'm not sure about, is if it ever disappears, it is replaced in procession, but it only, as far as I have can discern, disappears if you pass into the Southern Hemisphere....??? Is that what you meant, or did you mean the change-over from one star being the Pole Star to another? Navigationally it would have meant a readjustment of their bearings, and I can see how it fits into belief systems....but I suppose if you were from the North and suddenly found yourself without the Pole Star, that it must have been very unsettling...I wonder at what position, geographically, it passes out of sight...?

i was talking about procession. i've been interested in things like egyptian texts which talk about the north star when there has only been a north star for 4 brief periods of time over the past 12ky including our current blip. its interesting to note the movements of people when there was a star. must have been easy to motivate people when they could easily find their way home again. maybe they couldn't find "home" anymore when they lost the star. i would say things like the kaaba are pointing directly at something that is a specific distance away rather than aligned to stars.

reply to post by Parta

Originally posted by Parta
cheese is a cave thing. i believe the thesis was written at the time of the paleodiet craze... how did she get so big if it wasn't dairy. where did the fat in her diet come from? it certainly indicates a more settled type of life but the ROM says paleo european folks only had to hunt and gather for 2 hours a day and moving around was optional..

I understand the cave thing, but that would have evolved from using caves as a sanctuary for flocks of sheep and goats, which in turn were milked for nutrients. Remember that many of the early Victorian archaelogical accounts of the Mother Goddess depict her as goat- headed, and find her synonmous to Ba'al. That we, in the West, subjected ourselves to the torment of becoming lactose tolerant in the firstplace is testament to the need to find alternative sources of nutrients, not greed. Similarly, the corpulent cave Mother Goddess is demonstrative of what any good wet-nurse, or cash-cow would look like. Early settlers, even nomads, would have placed very high-value on lactating women, and animals, and most likely, as we evolved into bipeds, it would have been essential to find safe places for birthing.

A diet based solely on dairy will not get you fat, necessarily. Combined with carbohydrates though, it may.

Another interesting angle worth thinking about too, is that when betacarotene bearing vegetables and fruit are lightly cooked and combined with animal fat, such as dripping, or melted butter even, greatly improves the body's ability to transform the carotenes into Retinal. Animal husbandary most likely improved our sight. Becoming omnivores though, must also have reduced our night vision. You can see, no pun intended, why the liver was considered such an important source of divination. To those that worked as hunters, the liver would have provided the necessary supplement of vitamin A to improve their vision sufficiently. Things then get confused.

Originally posted by Parta
i was talking about procession. i've been interested in things like egyptian texts which talk about the north star when there has only been a north star for 4 brief periods of time over the past 12ky including our current blip. its interesting to note the movements of people when there was a star. must have been easy to motivate people when they could easily find their way home again. maybe they couldn't find "home" anymore when they lost the star. i would say things like the kaaba are pointing directly at something that is a specific distance away rather than aligned to stars.

Most cultures, of the Northern Hemisphere, I've found, hold the Pole Star in some reverence. In Monkey, the Taoists are mocked because they worship it. And, if you think about it, any dominant culture would have sought to ridicule the Pole Star. And any other navigational tool. The less people can find their own way, the more reliant they are on others to find it for them. And to charge them for the priviledge.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Thats awesome! We all have to take off the blinders and think like this. Who knows? The animal pit theory seems very grounded and possible. cool thought!

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

I understand the cave thing, but that would have evolved from using caves as a sanctuary for flocks of sheep and goats, which in turn were milked for nutrients. Remember that many of the early Victorian archaelogical accounts of the Mother Goddess depict her as goat- headed, and find her synonmous to Ba'al. That we, in the West, subjected ourselves to the torment of becoming lactose tolerant in the firstplace is testament to the need to find alternative sources of nutrients, not greed. Similarly, the corpulent cave Mother Goddess is demonstrative of what any good wet-nurse, or cash-cow would look like. Early settlers, even nomads, would have placed very high-value on lactating women, and animals, and most likely, as we evolved into bipeds, it would have been essential to find safe places for birthing.

A diet based solely on dairy will not get you fat, necessarily. Combined with carbohydrates though, it may.

Another interesting angle worth thinking about too, is that when betacarotene bearing vegetables and fruit are lightly cooked and combined with animal fat, such as dripping, or melted butter even, greatly improves the body's ability to transform the carotenes into Retinal. Animal husbandary most likely improved our sight. Becoming omnivores though, must also have reduced our night vision. You can see, no pun intended, why the liver was considered such an important source of divination. To those that worked as hunters, the liver would have provided the necessary supplement of vitamin A to improve their vision sufficiently. Things then get confused.

ah but a good cheese [2 years in the cave] frees us from lactose intolerance.

from the thesis comes the example of the milk fattened brides of mauretania. the 14litres of milk a day which makes them huge is equivalent to 2lbs of cheese.
so it might all it comes down to whether your preference is for biography and a pregnant goddess or veneration and a constipated goddess. worship for the most had been reserved for those that achieved great things for mankind so i end up with constipation. i understand the comfort you feel with biography.

far sighted and night sighted is an interesting point. some neolithic cultures rendered their big goddess as being far sighted [long necked with owl or eagle eyes]. was she a great navigator? those cultures which worshipped her were the shock troops of migration and soon turned her into a far sighted [long necked] masked goddess [be the mask for smything or war].

baal and the ram goddess eh? the early character of baal with his trademarked ears [at hazor etc] could probably be traced back to the neolithic/eneolithic quite easily now that we have the fullest catalog of artifacts ever in history to look at. he didn't change much [more earings the further back] but he seems to have gone through a diffcult phase very early where his body has 2 heads, 2 breasts and boy parts down below. you can interpret that in a million ways before you get to what mythology says.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Most cultures, of the Northern Hemisphere, I've found, hold the Pole Star in some reverence. In Monkey, the Taoists are mocked because they worship it. And, if you think about it, any dominant culture would have sought to ridicule the Pole Star. And any other navigational tool. The less people can find their own way, the more reliant they are on others to find it for them. And to charge them for the priviledge.

anything you want to do regarding the north star only works out for a little while. an older culture would know that its not a permanent solution to anything. there is ample evidence of what they tried to do those silly logical humans.

Originally posted by Parta
ah but a good cheese [2 years in the cave] frees us from lactose intolerance.

Really? I didn't know that.

Originally posted by Parta
from the thesis comes the example of the milk fattened brides of mauretania. the 14litres of milk a day which makes them huge is equivalent to 2lbs of cheese.
so it might all it comes down to whether your preference is for biography and a pregnant goddess or veneration and a constipated goddess. worship for the most had been reserved for those that achieved great things for mankind so i end up with constipation. i understand the comfort you feel with biography.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Sorry.

Originally posted by Parta
far sighted and night sighted is an interesting point. some neolithic cultures rendered their big goddess as being far sighted [long necked with owl or eagle eyes]. was she a great navigator? those cultures which worshipped her were the shock troops of migration and soon turned her into a far sighted [long necked] masked goddess [be the mask for smything or war].

Masked? I'm not sure I've seen a masked goddess. Where should I look? In the cultures that descended from the neolithic, there are to be expected adaptations to beliefs based upon the adopted environment. Female oracles were often denoted by birds of prey. Cybele with the white eagle. And the word 'Idea' derives from 'Ida' (Idaeus), from Mount Ida. Cybele to the Phyrigians was epitomised in the Magna Marta Idaea, a piece of meteorite. The Fingers of Mount Ida, or the Dactlys, are the marks left on the mountains by the Universal Mother in her birth pains. Dactlys, are also the magical dwarf-like beings who know the mysteries of metalworking.

Originally posted by Parta
baal and the ram goddess eh? the early character of baal with his trademarked ears [at hazor etc] could probably be traced back to the neolithic/eneolithic quite easily now that we have the fullest catalog of artifacts ever in history to look at. he didn't change much [more earings the further back] but he seems to have gone through a diffcult phase very early where his body has 2 heads, 2 breasts and boy parts down below. you can interpret that in a million ways before you get to what mythology says.

It's all very well to state that there is the fullest catalog of artifacts to compare, but how well catalogued are they, and how dependent are we on outdated classifications...?

Originally posted by Parta
anything you want to do regarding the north star only works out for a little while. an older culture would know that its not a permanent solution to anything. there is ample evidence of what they tried to do those silly logical humans.

Yes. Indeed.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Really? I didn't know that.

yes. you are either a none sufferer or someone who gets to cheese it up again.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
from the thesis comes the example of the milk fattened brides of mauretania. the 14litres of milk a day which makes them huge is equivalent to 2lbs of cheese.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Sorry.

you said a dairy diet and not getting fat and from the thesis the modern day example of milk fatteneing is the mauretanian girls who have to drink 14litres of milk a day to get huge. 14litres of milk is 2 lbs of cheese or the daily production of a cow in bad shape.

the two of us come down on different sides of the thesis argument [biography and the morther goddess or the dairy queen].

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Masked? I'm not sure I've seen a masked goddess. Where should I look? In the cultures that descended from the neolithic, there are to be expected adaptations to beliefs based upon the adopted environment. Female oracles were often denoted by birds of prey. Cybele with the white eagle. And the word 'Idea' derives from 'Ida' (Idaeus), from Mount Ida. Cybele to the Phyrigians was epitomised in the Magna Marta Idaea, a piece of meteorite. The Fingers of Mount Ida, or the Dactlys, are the marks left on the mountains by the Universal Mother in her birth pains. Dactlys, are also the magical dwarf-like beings who know the mysteries of metalworking.

its not to say boys didn't wear masks too.
middle danube [vinca et al] or volos are good places for the masked goddess [or god]. hungary has the best long necked masked goddesses i think.



and 6000+ idols...

vinca starcevo kris koros etc danube figurines

cucuteni gumelnita karanovo etc danube figurines

oldest aegean greek figurines

aegean greek figurines

samarra hassuna halaf etc mesopotamia figurines

anatolia etc figurines

paleolithic / mesolithic figurines etc

badari maadi naqada etc egypt figurines

indus central asia etc figurines

japan china americas etc figurines

fill your boots. its an education.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

It's all very well to state that there is the fullest catalog of artifacts to compare, but how well catalogued are they, and how dependent are we on outdated classifications...?

well i guess i'm just happy that about a thousand new museums are available for us to catalog