Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

Originally posted by InsideOfItAll

If this child was taken, lets say by a neighbor who has recently moved to the neighborhood.. there is a possibility that it was sold to circles that are involved with the illuminati.

@ Gabby: I can only be thankful that you are not in any way directly involved in the REAL LIFE investigation of the disappearance of this REAL baby girl. This has to be the wildest and most ignorant, sensationalist theory yet proposed regarding what happened to Lisa Irwin.

And if you are just trolling, like I suspect you are, it is in incredible poor taste to troll a thread about a little child who is with 99 % certainty dead. A defenseless little girl who most likely was killed by one of both of her parents. The T&C does not permit me to state openly what I really think of your behaviour, but I will say this: Shame on you. Shame.

And kudos to the OP and the posters who try to provide facts and some common sense to this discussion.

edit on 13-11-2011 by InsideOfItAll because: (no reason given)

i have not studied any of this, i am hoping they can work this mystery out and I understand that this may be a HUGE improability in this case, but why are you so prepared to slam this person for it... maybe they are being sarcastic and you are picking up on this and i am not... i will go back and read this later but I have so much to do, but when it comes to hatching plots.

well, i think cops dress up like smelly homeless people not just to see what crime is going down among homeless people that often just want to be left alone, but to really smell like the convincing shame of being homeless... to find the most desperate of street people for companionship... to perhaps satisfy a truly sick underlying aggression or the increase their department budgets... and why not, they might think they are doing the stupid hopeless crack victim a favor.

I can't tell you exactly where all things like this occurred but NO ONE can ever say they did not... trust me on that.

I have no idea what happened to this little girl but i do hope people figure it out and i hope it was not their parents, which would mean their will be grieving parents and that is heartbreaking but to think a parent could be so cruel is another terrible reminder in life. I'd rather think she was alive, kidnapped... maybe even by the very authorities pressing those parents for answers (still don't know what's going on)... but anyway... who's right, who's wrong... God I hope they can figure it out because crime can get so dicey, what if you persecute the wrong person? Grieving parents?!... oh, that would be terrible.

reply to post by Michelle129th

Oh I completely get where she was coming from, and happened to agree with her.

Then why didn't you just agree? Pretty simple that. And no, that's not a criticism just a question.

Any reasonable mature individual would have to agree David's use of the term 'break' was way out of line. If I'd used it in reference to the parents people would have gone off - I've no doubt at all. I asked you about your (seemingly at the time) double standards. Not a rant, a question.

If you were hurt by my observation and my opinion (being we need to be fare straight across the board) then of course I regret pointing it out. But honestly, it shouldn't matter WHO says it. Anyone who uses such sensationalist and derogatory term in connection with the police and how they interact with children should be censored by anyone here with a sense of fare play for those boys and the police who're doing all they can to find Lisa.

I'm glad to see you agree. It's a shame it had to come to this when we both have - as you say - 'lost our hearts' to Lisa.

And thanks for the recent links - I've had some computer problems and have fallen behind.

peace

reply to post by schmae

IF Jeremy is innocent and covering for Deborah, now would be the time to come clean. I don't know if that is the case but about 4 weeks ago I was sure it was. Today I'm afraid to pick any side because when I wake and read the news I have to retract it and go another direction !

That would seem to be the logical thing to do now wouldn’t it?

Your point gives me an opportunity to post a theory. I don’t know why other participants in the thread continually speak as if they know my theory, lol, I’ve never posted it - but that’s besides the point.

Do I think the parents killed her outright? No, I don’t.
Do I believe they covered it up? Yes.
Do I think the boys might have been involved? I did until they were interviewed again.
Before then I thought it was possible for the boys to have gone to help their little sister - knowing their mother was ‘blacked out’ (again). When trying to help her? They could have inadvertently done her harm.
From there it was easy to assume Jeremy would be terrified to loose his son, thus, help with covering up Lisa’s death by disposing of her little body ‘somewhere’.

Now that the boys have spoken with police again - unless we’re not being told ‘the rest of the story’ - (which is obviously the case) it puts the above to rest.

It’s still possible Lisa died in that house. Fell from her crib. Got ‘rolled over on’ - whatever, and, the parents are covering it up.

Whatever happened I firmly believe the parents know what happened but I’m still unsure if they’re ultimately responsible for her demise. Would it surprise me? No.

peace

Our clients are telling the truth': Lawyer for Baby Lisa's parents claims he has the evidence that proves they are innocent.

Lots of spins to this article. And none of them - in my opinion - release the parents from suspicion at all.

A mysterious call from a cell phone reportedly stolen when Lisa Irwin vanished is proof that her parents are innocent, their lawyer said Saturday

Not.

Picerno said the FBI told him someone tried to access the voice mail and internet of the couple's phone at 3:17 and 3:32 a.m. October 4.

That effort happened between one-fifth and one-third of a mile from the Irwin home, he said.

So that means someone else made the calls and not Deborah or Jeremy? We have only THEIR WORD those cell phones were missing. Only their word.

And unless I missed something? The article neglects to mention the ‘other’ people hanging around drinking and smoking that evening. Hard to credit an article that neglects so many facts.

peace

No normal person would have taken Baby Lisa - so who might have?

There is no normal person, in their right mind, who would abduct a baby...It takes a special person to take a human being.

While yes, it's possible this could have been a complete stranger abduction, the likelihood is extremely slight. More likely it is someone known to the family.

That makes a great deal more sense, unless we truly are dealing with a 'one of a kind' (type) crime. Or, that her parents were directly involved of course.

When looking at what type of person might have taken Baby Lisa, Abeyta suggests police, the FBI, and the community focus in on locals and not give up because they might pass lie detector tests or have possible alibis. An alibi is only as reliable as the person who provides it.

Which would point back to everyone.

Characteristics of someone who might have abducted Lisa:

A person likely known to the family
A person seeking revenge against one or both of Baby Lisa's parents, or even another family member
Someone who is selfish and/or jealous and felt threatened by one of Lisa's parents
Someone in great physical condition who likely traversed through woods in the middle of the night
Someone knowledgeable with the area, including the nearby woods
A person with the training or background to pull something like this off
A person who was social and became distant after Baby Lisa vanished
A person with marital problems who might blame those problems on one of Lisa's parents
A person who experienced a recent trauma or major life stress
Noticeable change in personality or behavior, including acting suspiciously
Someone with specialized training in phones or other technology
Someone who learned their spouse was cheating and somehow blamed one of Lisa's parents, even if they were not directly involved in the affair
Someone who recently lost a baby, including through a miscarriage
A person who acts noticeably odd at social events such as vigils

There's a lot more great info in this article. I can't post the whole thing but it's really worth the read.

peace

Originally posted by silo13

Characteristics of someone who might have abducted Lisa:

A person likely known to the family
A person seeking revenge against one or both of Baby Lisa's parents, or even another family member
Someone who is selfish and/or jealous and felt threatened by one of Lisa's parents
Someone in great physical condition who likely traversed through woods in the middle of the night
Someone knowledgeable with the area, including the nearby woods
A person with the training or background to pull something like this off
A person who was social and became distant after Baby Lisa vanished
A person with marital problems who might blame those problems on one of Lisa's parents
A person who experienced a recent trauma or major life stress
Noticeable change in personality or behavior, including acting suspiciously
Someone with specialized training in phones or other technology
Someone who learned their spouse was cheating and somehow blamed one of Lisa's parents, even if they were not directly involved in the affair
Someone who recently lost a baby, including through a miscarriage
A person who acts noticeably odd at social events such as vigils.

LOL! Where did all these characteristics come from? Do we have any statistics to show that, for example, 73% of abducted children were taken by someone " in great physical condition who likely traversed through woods in the middle of the night"?

It's all total hogwash, made up to point towards the next door neighbour. The last "characteristic" could have been the guy's name, it's that unsubtle. Why is this Abeyta pushing himself into another family's grief? Maybe to make a name for himself and perhaps get a book deal out of it?

reply to post by labyrinth101

Abeyta has worked for 25 years helping families recover their missing children.

Gil already has a 'name for himself.'

He also makes it quite clear these points/characteristics are specifically for the Lisa case.

peace

reply to post by silo13


Exactly! He is an ambulance chaser who has decided on his 'dog' in the race and he has made up these 'characteristics' to point suspicion at a person that he does not know. There is absolutely no reason for anyone else to give these fabricated points any credence whatsoever.

Megan told me that when her phone was used that night, she got it back with the incoming/outgoing call logs deleted. Because she was using a pay-as-you-go Virgin Mobile cell phone, there are no telephone company records and this phone has no SIMM card. She says she believes that authorities were going to “ghost” her telephone to recover the information. Megan says authorities still have her phone and a GPS she was advertising for sale on Craig’s List.
More here

So from this if it is to be believed we learn that Megan's cell phone is a "pay-as-you-go Virgin Mobile" cellphone. Now I've never used a Virgin Mobile cellphone, so I went to their website looking, and found this,

Your Account PIN is the 6 digit secret code you created to access your account. You need your Account PIN to Top-Up, download games and ringtones, check your account history online, and do almost anything else with your Virgin Mobile account. Make sure you have your Account PIN written down somewhere so you don't forget it. And never share your Account PIN with anyone - it's the key to your account.
More here

Now Virgin Mobile is a business selling a service, and you are charged for that service by the minute, it simply doesn't seem reasonable, that a company is going to charge you by the minute for a service, that they keep no records of! I notice that Virgin Mobile appears to offer an account history option online, and that it would need the same PIN, that Megan would need to add minutes to her pay as you go plan! Does it prove anything? Nope, but I did find it interesting, kind of makes me wonder what a 20 year old woman could be offering these older guys, that would so convince them of her innocents. And it does appear to just be men so far that are speaking out for her.

Another thing I noticed in this same article,

Kelly tells me authorities came to their home once with cadaver dogs but because they got no “hit” on the front porch, they did not go inside.
More here

If this is an example of how KCPD searched for little Lisa, is it any wonder that six weeks into this case, there is NO SIGN of little Lisa? Are we to believe there is only one means of entry to this home? That if the "body" was there it MUST be detectable from the porch? By this logic, there would have been no "HIT" at little Lisa's home! So this is the kind of searches that authorities preformed? How very sad for little Lisa!

reply to post by InsideOfItAll

@ Gabby: I can only be thankful that you are not in any way directly involved in the REAL LIFE investigation of the disappearance of this REAL baby girl. This has to be the wildest and most ignorant, sensationalist theory yet proposed regarding what happened to Lisa Irwin.

I guess looking at all the possibilities is sensationalist? Considering there are those who have considered Debbie was in some wild scheme to sell her child, I don't think its unreasonable to think that others could be involved with selling this baby.

I guess the real life investigators focusing on the parents have a much better grasp on the reality of the situation..and have proved themselves "worthy" of "real" investigating by finding baby lisa ?

reply to post by labyrinth101

He is an ambulance chaser

Gill is a father who lost his son Christopher in the same manner 25 years ago.

He's dedicated his life since in helping other families find their babies and to combat human trafficking and is the president and founder of - Families of Missing Children International a non profit organization.

And He went to the Irwin’s at his own expense as has been reported accurately throughout the time of Lisa's disappearance.

An ‘Ambulance chaser?’ I sincerely doubt you have a grasp of the meaning of the phrase.

Is this man looking for all the exposure he can - to help find his son even after all these years all while he helps other families find their own children at his own expense? Could be. But only a monster would think ill of him for that.

On the other hand you might want to check and see who's getting paid for giving first hand interviews concerning their daughter? I've heard it happens.

Take care. No more handouts from me.

peace

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by labyrinth101

 

He is an ambulance chaser

Gill is a father who lost his son Christopher in the same manner 25 years ago.

So you now claim special insight into Christopher's disappearance? You, repeatedly claimed/suggested that Deborah and Jeremy are involved with Lisa's disappearance, and you are suggesting that Gill is involved in his son's?

He's dedicated his life since in helping other families find their babies and to combat human trafficking and is the president and founder of - Families of Missing Children International a non profit organization.

So he runs a non-profit, and gets funding for his "non-profit" based in at least part by keeping his name in the media and associated with missing babies? Let's see here, just who from his "non-profit" is involved with the "Sky Metalwala" case? So it's not every missing baby case that he shows up at, but those where it would appear he can get his name, and of course his "non-profit" in the media, it could be said...

And He went to the Irwin’s at his own expense as has been reported accurately throughout the time of Lisa's disappearance.

So you are suggesting that his "non-profit" isn't footing the bill for this trip? That this trip's isn't just another sad attempt to get his additional 15 minutes of fame?

An ‘Ambulance chaser?’ I sincerely doubt you have a grasp of the meaning of the phrase.

You now claim you understand American colloquialisms? Or is this simply another example of the pot calling the kettle black?

Is this man looking for all the exposure he can - to help find his son even after all these years all while he helps other families find their own children at his own expense? Could be. But only a monster would think ill of him for that.

and name calling is acceptable here?

On the other hand you might want to check and see who's getting paid for giving first hand interviews concerning their daughter? I've heard it happens.

Take care. No more handouts from me.

You might want to provide a link for this unsubstantiated rumor, if you've got one?

reply to post by gabby2011


Any time you throw out the term illuminati, folks form an immediate opinion depending on what they think of it. Half the folks think its' a real thing and the other half think the folks who think it's a real thing are looney. I'm sure there are international baby traffic rings. They do it with child labor and adult slave labor, etc. You need look no further than the recent Penn State fiasco to see that when it comes to abuse of children, those in power protect each other.
But in this case, I'm still convinced it's an 'inside' job.

Originally posted by silo13
Your point gives me an opportunity to post a theory. I don’t know why other participants in the thread continually speak as if they know my theory, lol, I’ve never posted it - but that’s besides the point.

Do I think the parents killed her outright? No, I don’t.
Do I believe they covered it up? Yes.
Do I think the boys might have been involved? I did until they were interviewed again.
Before then I thought it was possible for the boys to have gone to help their little sister - knowing their mother was ‘blacked out’ (again). When trying to help her? They could have inadvertently done her harm.
From there it was easy to assume Jeremy would be terrified to loose his son, thus, help with covering up Lisa’s death by disposing of her little body ‘somewhere’.

Now that the boys have spoken with police again - unless we’re not being told ‘the rest of the story’ - (which is obviously the case) it puts the above to rest.

It’s still possible Lisa died in that house. Fell from her crib. Got ‘rolled over on’ - whatever, and, the parents are covering it up.

Whatever happened I firmly believe the parents know what happened but I’m still unsure if they’re ultimately responsible for her demise. Would it surprise me? No.

peace

Thank you for posting your theory Silo. It pretty much lines up with what I think could have happened. The only other thing that has me thinking is that baby Lisa had a cold with a cough. Could someone have given her cough medicine not realizing she was too young for it? I have even thought maybe she died of SIDS & the mother panicked because she had been drinking.

To me the only thing that doesn't fit in with an accidental death is the cell phone usage.

OiO

In this case baby Lisa is still, gone the last time I checked. And the last time I looked KCPD is still claiming they have no suspects. That is the equilvant of acknowledging that at this point ANYTHING is possible. One logically needs to wonder at just what movitates one to personally attack another member, just because they dared to suggest a possibility, to raise a question? Even more so when that person labels themselves as only caring about the child! We do not need to go farther than Penn State to find the suggestion of "BIG MONEY" politics, power and child porn. Law enforcement that FAILED, to protect the children, and the possibility of cover ups. To laugh, ridicule, and condemn a member, because one simply dared to wonder, with what is unfolding at long last at Penn State this month, is uncalled for!

You don't believe in a theory, and you NEED to express that disbelief, attack the theory if you can. To attack the user is wrong.

reply to post by OneisOne


I think cell phone usage does fit i n with accidental. Either way there would be panic and what to do now , etc. Calling someone to come and help you. I'd so rather it be an accident than...........other .

Originally posted by schmae
reply to post by gabby2011

 

Any time you throw out the term illuminati, folks form an immediate opinion depending on what they think of it. Half the folks think its' a real thing and the other half think the folks who think it's a real thing are looney. I'm sure there are international baby traffic rings. They do it with child labor and adult slave labor, etc. You need look no further than the recent Penn State fiasco to see that when it comes to abuse of children, those in power protect each other.
But in this case, I'm still convinced it's an 'inside' job.

edit on 14-11-2011 by schmae because: (no reason given)

Thank you for acknowledging that there are child traffickers out there, and who they may be connected with.

I respect your views as to what you think happened here, but my instincts tell me that someone outside the family did this. Who..and why.. I have no idea.. but I think we can agree that we both would love to see the real truth come out, and hopefully find where baby Lisa is.

reply to post by OneisOne

Thank you for posting your theory Silo. It pretty much lines up with what I think could have happened.

No Problem. So many unsubstantial accusations going round about what my theory is and what it isn't I figured I'd save ATS the bandwidth of these trolls that insist on knowin' my mind - who don't, lol.

The only other thing that has me thinking is that baby Lisa had a cold with a cough. Could someone have given her cough medicine not realizing she was too young for it? I have even thought maybe she died of SIDS & the mother panicked because she had been drinking.

About the cough medicine. That's one reason I was wondering what the medicine bottles were photographed atop her refrigerator. Nothing accusatory - just pure curiosity over who was taking what in the house. It's surely possible someone accidental tried to help her and caused her demise. What a tragedy that would be!

To me the only thing that doesn't fit in with an accidental death is the cell phone usage.

That makes me want to weep, all the confusion over the phones. I just don't see though how one of the phones making a call from only a fifth of a mile down the road changes much. We only have the 'Brad-Wins' word those phones were stolen. It's a conundrum for sure!



peace

reply to post by Dav1d


Are you talking to me? I got confused over your post. My penn state comment is to demonstrate how the powerful and rich child abusers hide behind and protect each other. So if Lisa were taken by any sort of child traffic ring and sold / traded to someone else within that ring, it's possible. Since those type of kids almost never show back up, it's impossible to get a number . Say 10 or 30 or 70 % of babies who are NEVER found go into a ring like that? or have been disposed of post mortem to never be found. It would be an interesting statistic for sure, but the powerful folks who run those kind of rings make sure they never come to light. So it's impossible to know.

Originally posted by Dav1d


In this case baby Lisa is still, gone the last time I checked. And the last time I looked KCPD is still claiming they have no suspects. That is the equilvant of acknowledging that at this point ANYTHING is possible. One logically needs to wonder at just what movitates one to personally attack another member, just because they dared to suggest a possibility, to raise a question? Even more so when that person labels themselves as only caring about the child! We do not need to go farther than Penn State to find the suggestion of "BIG MONEY" politics, power and child porn. Law enforcement that FAILED, to protect the children, and the possibility of cover ups. To laugh, ridicule, and condemn a member, because one simply dared to wonder, with what is unfolding at long last at Penn State this month, is uncalled for!

You don't believe in a theory, and you NEED to express that disbelief, attack the theory if you can. To attack the user is wrong.

Thank you David..

There have been some who have suggested the Irwin's did this for money, and actually sold their own baby..and if that theory would be true, then obviously there would be those out there who are willing to buy a child for whatever purposes they may have for it.

That being said, I'm sure these people would buy a child from anyone.... and the Irwin's don't strike me as people who would have inside connections to connections, to the criminal underground world of this nature.

I'm not saying that I am right with my instincts..but until I see strong evidence to prove me wrong..I have to go with my gut.

Regarding the baby boy Sky , my gut tells me its a coverup by mom....but to me that is not an excuse to start ranting on about her being some COPD nutcase..and tearing her apart...I'll leave that to nancy grace.. and those like her..who seem to get cheap thrills doing such.