Are you saved? The best description I have heard.

PPSimmons is a great source for solid biblical understanding. This video below takes the truth of being saved and makes it crystal clear. Can you save yourself? Are you a child of God? These are questions we should all examine with humility and reverence for God.

If you have read my reasoning of this term here on ATS, you have heard me say that "You must be born again" is not an option. I take the words of Christ literally. Although we are not beyond the veil to know, I am of the opinion that this term has meaning beyond my reasoning of it. There is a process in this that reveals that God is long-suffering. Any Christian will tell you that they believe we have been born here in the material world. Any Christian will also tell you that you can be born again into a new heavenly body. I agree with these two statements, but I take Jesus at his word. "YOU MUST be born again." There is no other option. What does this mean? Does this mirror the basic understanding of jewish transmigration or eastern reincarnation? Does it mean you just simply must try it? Jesus words are clear. You MUST be born again.

This is found in John 3. Jesus gives Nicodemus two methods of birth--water and spirit. He states that to be born in the spirit, water is necessary as the starting point. This is clearly a reference to the womb, but it is also, in my opinion, a reference to baptism in the material world. This makes the earth, by my reasoning, a womb of development as well.

The Bible calls this the trial by fire. We are refined by the consuming fire of the flaming sword that protects the tree of life. As I stated before, there is more here than we can reason accurately beyond the simple truth that Jesus saves. How does this work by physics and the reality we live each day? Good question. In Luke 10, finding a love for God and man are the key in my opinion. 1 Corinthians 13 seems to reveal our goal by comparison. If the earth is a womb, then the next union beyond the sperm and the egg is quite possibly the soul and Holy Spirit. What a world we live in.

Consider these videos:

I find it odd that many Christians do exactly what you've done here.

You state

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
I take the words of Christ literally.

But then, you translate a meaning from the literal like, right after that.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
This is found in John 3. Jesus gives Nicodemus two methods of birth--water and spirit. He states that to be born in the spirit, water is necessary as the starting point. This is clearly a reference to the womb, but it is also, in my opinion, a reference to baptism in the material world.

Odd imo.

I am not a christian myself, to be clear, nor do I have any interest in being indoctrinated into Christianity. That being said....

As for being saved.... I kind of find it sad that people actually produce offspring, and then drill into the minds of these children that they are deeply flawed, straight from birth. As for myself, I know that I am a good person, I have no evil intent. I love my fellow man, and would give the shirt off my back to help someone in need. And I have enough love for myself to know that I am not so flawed that I need to 'save' mysel..... er rather, pay tithing to someone else to 'save' me.

I mean no offense, this is just my view. And I cherish that you and everyone else has a right to form their own opinions.

This kind of confused me. It sounds as though at first you espouse that reincarnation is the way to be saved, but then it sounds in the last paragraph like you backtrack on that and believe only in one lifetime.

I never really did understand Christians wanted to take everything so literally, but when it comes to being "born again", they want to get all mystical and symbolic.

Originally posted by Lighterside
I find it odd that many Christians do exactly what you've done here.

You state

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
I take the words of Christ literally.

But then, you translate a meaning from the literal like, right after that.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
This is found in John 3. Jesus gives Nicodemus two methods of birth--water and spirit. He states that to be born in the spirit, water is necessary as the starting point. This is clearly a reference to the womb, but it is also, in my opinion, a reference to baptism in the material world.

Odd imo.

I am not a christian myself, to be clear, nor do I have any interest in being indoctrinated into Christianity. That being said....

As for being saved.... I kind of find it sad that people actually produce offspring, and then drill into the minds of these children that they are deeply flawed, straight from birth. As for myself, I know that I am a good person, I have no evil intent. I love my fellow man, and would give the shirt off my back to help someone in need. And I have enough love for myself to know that I am not so flawed that I need to 'save' mysel..... er rather, pay tithing to someone else to 'save' me.

I mean no offense, this is just my view. And I cherish that you and everyone else has a right to form their own opinions.

That was my same sentiment when I read this, but, you have to admit, if you believe in the words of the bible and can take a little room for interpretation over literalism, this argument is a good one. His references are well done!

By the way, I am not a Christian, but respect those who follow whatever variation on that theme, or any other religion for that matter.

Amen.
-2nd

read my signiture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by reficul
read my signiture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that's a good way to show people why your post vs star ratio is skewed into the negative. Even myself, who clearly stated that I am not a christian, and clearly stated opposition to the OP's argument can see you're outright trolling this thread.

At least offer some thoughtful input, you'll look like less of a jack[snip] for it.

here we go...now you made me start to rant!the council of nicea voted on the divinity of the christ,to establish whether or not he was the "SON(sun)OF GOD'. by a rediculous show of hands,he was deemed DIVINE! i'm assuming by divine intervention(like how the new pope is chosen-white smoke and all).the terrorist 'christians"of that time were gaining popularity against rome's occupation to the middle east,so the romans legalized christianity to quiet the movement. constantine was said to convert because he saw the sign of the cross in the sky before battle,so jesus made him win!why did he follow the religion of sol ivictus-invincible SUN? on his death bed he converted,i'm sure he done this just to be sure he would go 'up' instead of 'down' in the afterlife!
leave the new testament with the other beatiful books of fiction-paul(saul) was roman!
study the old testament-the tora.study gamaitia,study kabbala,study the qur'an,study the vedas or any of the worlds beautiful beliefs,study mathmatics! i find christians are very closed minded because of their 'my way is the right way" train of thinking. ever hear of budda?of coarse not,he's of the devil!
its easier to hat than to understand.

reply to post by Lighterside


sorry to offend,totally not my intention. but i've studied this religion my whole life,chose another,and have been persacuted since then. just trying to 'learn' the people that worship a deified corpse that they should practice the acts of the christ instead of of going to war for their corpse because everyone else's faith is satanic!
the spanish done a wonderful job in south america!

reply to post by reficul


Again, just spewing hate. Nothing to do with the OP's topic. You're here to simply troll Christians, at least this time with substance (off topic at that).

IMO Christians are good people, and do instill good values into people, they do not deserve your hate. Sure, millions have died in the name of Christianity, but so have millions in the name of Oil. Your average Christian is a well mannered, good hearted person, that cares for family and community. They're aren't out there stomping on statues of Buddha in droves. Get over yourself, and move along.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

ETA

sorry to offend,totally not my intention.

Really? cause it kinda seems like that is exactly the intention.

Sorry to hear you've been persecuted. But you should understand, that humans persecute others, not just Christians. It happens, it's not right, but it happens. Believe me, not all Christians are out to get you.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Be very careful using your reasoning in interpreting the scriptures. That is a treacherous ground to walk on. The scriptures were meant to be read using the Holy Spirit we have access to through Jesus. You run the risk of missing the message and misleading yourself when you try to interpret the message on your own.

However, you are correct in your beliefs. Baptism is NOT an absolute requirement, it is Christ's wish if you can do it, but if not he will not hold it against you. One of the thievs on the cross next to him at his crucifixtion asked the Lord to forgive him and remember him and Jesus said "I tell you, this day you will be with me in paradise" and the thief was not able to be baptised but Jesus accepted him anyway. The ONLY requirement to be saved is to believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose again on the 3rd day and now sits at the right hand of the Father. We missionary baptists believe that yes once saved is ALWAYS saved but with a condition, you must strive to keep Jesus' commandments. However, being saved is NOT a license to sin all you want without fear of any consequences. Jesus does have the right to blot your name out of the book of life. Jesus did not give us redemption on our own merits, man did not deserve to be saved, thus he will not revoke your redemption if you mess up once in a while because he knows we are not perfect. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak"-Apostle Paul.

reply to post by Lighterside


Well said. Thank you for answering in a kind way. Watch the video. You may be surprised that your answer matches the content of the video somewhat. We cannot do anything to be saved apart from hearing the calling from God. As you point out, you have not heard the calling, yet you value love. This is the point of the video actually. Love is the fruit of truth. Anyone can partake. Hatred, bias and prejudice are the fruits of pride. We all partake of this fruit as well. The fruit is the result of reaping and sowing. We all do this as well. Judgment is merely the reaction to our action. Free will is an illusion in many ways since we cannot do anything to make a choice that God's law does not already answer as a reaction (judgment).

If you are still with me, consider this: I would mail you $20 if you can name one thing you do to keep yourself alive apart form thinking and moving. It's an easy way to make a quick $20. If you reflect on this, you quickly realize something you may have never considered. No forms of life do anything apart from the use of consciousness and movement. There are literally millions of actions that must be taken by other aspects of life to allow your employ of the world at large. You do none of it. You do two simple things--think and move.

Do you engage the cones and rods in your eyes? Do you separate the nitrogen and oxygen in your lungs? Do you digest your food? Do you make your hair grow? Can any of us make the sun shine or the earth spin?

The big question here is one that forces us to reflect on our image here in the reality of the material world. If you are not responsible for anything apart form the two things you do, who is? If you see this truth as a simple mirror, the mirror reveals your image in the contrast of what you see. The Bible is the same type of image. We cannot see ourselves apart from the reflection in a mirror. If you look in the Bible, you will likely see your own image as a man and miss God in the image. Pride is the component of life that activates the flaming sword mentioned in Genesis 3. This is the consuming fire that blinds the prideful soul from seeing truth. It is also the sword that cuts the pride away if the soul is humble before God. God only wants us to see Him and others in equality. Luke 10 explains how love (agape) must reveal the spirit within. Love God and love your enemies. Knock and the door is opened. The golden rule is the law. No law can be broken if we love others as ourselves.

Matt. 7

7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

My point was not to backtrack. I divide truth as accurately as possible. Literally spoken, Jesus states a fact. Jesus never really says anything that is not in parable form. All of His words are the layers of an onion. There are never words in the Bible that are not layers revealing the core of the truth within. The outer layer is the literal reading by the historical context presented. The layers are the meanings behind what is said.

For instance, consider these terms:

Veil of the temple - The temple of God was the literal temple built by the Hebrews. The veil covered the holy of holies. The literally actually happened. The symbolism is for the veil that is over the soul while in the material world. We are kept from remembering our previous estate.

Baptism - This is a term to represent the actual thing John the Baptist did to symbolize rebirth. It also symbolizes immersion into the water of the material world.

All of the stories in the Bible add up to the actual represented in symbol to reveal the literal behind the veil. I fully take Jesus at His word when he says that we must be born again. I then realize what he means. We must be born into the material world or the spirit world. It is a process symbolized by the baptism into the water first. The veil keeps us from remembering our former estate and seeing that our soul is divine before it arrives here. We must live by faith first before we live by fact. The prodigal son must leave home and return after being ravaged by life. This allows Him to see the Father in a new light. We must be slaves in Egypt before God leads us to the promised land. We must sacrifice what is most precious to us (self) by seeing God in the burning bush. We come to find out that the sacrifice was provided for us all along. Jesus was the lamb that was sacrificed in our place. Abraham was asked to sacrifice His Son. Instead, God provided the sacrifice after faith was observed in Abram. The 'h' was added in his name as the seventh letter. 6 represents man. Carbon has 6 protons, 6 electrons, 6 neutrons. God's number is 7. The h in Hebrew that was added is the letter 'hey'. This is the letter that represents completeness. In the ancient Hebrew pictograph for Hey, we see a man standing with him arms outstretched to God.

I could keep going and going, but he point is made. Literal happened. Symbolic is what was intended.

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
This kind of confused me. It sounds as though at first you espouse that reincarnation is the way to be saved, but then it sounds in the last paragraph like you backtrack on that and believe only in one lifetime.

I never really did understand Christians wanted to take everything so literally, but when it comes to being "born again", they want to get all mystical and symbolic.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


i agree,because i have a family of jahova witnesess that visit me on a monthly basis.we talk&and have tea. but when ronald reagan,george w bush (both) etc... go to war for god against the infidel,our muslim citisens are getting beat to death in our countries for their beliefs.i have belief in prayer,i try to follow the teachings of the christ,and many more teachers that i can name here,and her i am being persecuted for voicing my opinion of the obvious.
quntum physics dictates that EVERYTHUG is interconected.
in magick they say as above so below!
jesus(yehousha ben youshif) joshoa son of josef christ(anointed) NEVER said he was the son of god.the roman "boss" asked him if he was.and he said if thats what you think.he was the son of man.
damn,stop following a symbol,and start following God.its in you,and its all

around you!blessed be,and love for all.narrowmindeness leads you to narrow corridores!
love is all,be it the whole of the law

reply to post by Lighterside


I gave you a star for that. Hate breeds hate and the cycle will never end until those few brave souls step forward and break that cycle. We all have choices to make and we should be making them to better humanity and better our children and teaching to love one another. The harshest words can kill and the kindest words can mend a broken heart.

Thank you for having the courage to break that cycle.

reply to post by reficul

i find christians are very closed minded because of their 'my way is the right way" train of thinking. ever hear of budda?of coarse not,he's of the devil! its easier to hat than to understand.

The Dhammapada is one of my all-time favorite books of antiquity. Rumi the Sufi is another great thinker. Buddha searched for enlightenment. Video 2 speaks to enlightenment from the verse in Hebrews that was mentioned. Buddha essentially said the same things that Jesus said, only 500 years earlier. Buddha and Confucius considered this the way.

Philosophy called their version truth.

Jesus called His the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father except through Him. What is Jesus in name and why is His name above all names?

Taking the Lord's name in vain, we are taking His character but not acting on the meaning. In the Bible, a name is the person's character. Jesus character is love. The simple fact of salvation is taking on the name of Jesus in belief. This is seeking God in love and seeking the best for man by the same character. Salvation follows.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Lighterside

 

I gave you a star for that. Hate breeds hate and the cycle will never end until those few brave souls step forward and break that cycle. We all have choices to make and we should be making them to better humanity and better our children and teaching to love one another. The harshest words can kill and the kindest words can mend a broken heart.

Thank you for having the courage to break that cycle.

Speaking of Buddha in my last post, I am reminded of my favorite quote form him.

Hate never dispels hate. Only love can dispel hate.

In math, this is negative numbers and positive numbers. Two negatives only make more negative. A positive and a negative cancel. Only two positives make progression away from zero in the correct direction.

Thank you for the comments.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Awesome thoughts. I try to stick to Hillel's Seven Rules when rightly dividing truth for myself. Hillel was the Rabbi of Paul and Simeon. LINK I agree that the spirit will lead when a person recognizes the voice of the Shepherd. This is always true.

The way I see this, nature should give us the picture of the process. The Sun and the Moon come together in union to provide the process of life on earth. The sperm and the egg do the same. Man and woman, right and left, up and down...These are all unions of the same in degree. In John 3, Jesus alludes to this by speaking of the Holy Spirit in relation to baptism. We are born into the world of water. In the Ancient Hebrew pictographs, water is blood from the root morphology of both words. Spirit birth is gained when a person moves the flaming sword from the tree of life. This is the consuming fire of Genesis 3 that protects the process. This consuming fire is the Refiner's fire. The work of the sword is to protect the tree of life until we remove pride and bias toward God and others. This reveals the meaning of life, which is love. Luke 10 shows the simple steps:

Love God and Love others, even your enemies.

Union with the spirit becomes the next union that bears fruit in the tree of life above. The roots below are here in the material world. The fruit of the spirit drops on the ground above and a new tree is born. "You must be born again." It's not an option.

Originally posted by reficul
reply to post by Lighterside

 

sorry to offend,totally not my intention. but i've studied this religion my whole life,chose another,and have been persacuted since then. just trying to 'learn' the people that worship a deified corpse that they should practice the acts of the christ instead of of going to war for their corpse because everyone else's faith is satanic!
the spanish done a wonderful job in south america!

Confucius said this: "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand."

Life is a progression from ignorance to enlightenment. There is a final step. This is the life of service to others. Beyond waking, we will only understand by doing. All of history is the doing part. We can hear and see, but doing is the only way to travel beyond what we see and hear.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


if you want to be like the christ,perform the acts of the christ.i'm still working on my 'acts',but my friend,your comment was refreshing!blesssed be and may peace be with you.
budda hung from a tree for three days no? in the celtic tradition,ogham hung from a tree for three days and was given the gift of writing(thoth) jesus was resurrected in three days!all over the world this theme persists.isn't it strange?