Was Jesus the Anti-Christ?

Originally posted by SavedOne

Originally posted by auraelium
Was jesus the Anti-christ?

The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test
our faith in God.i says that the Anti-christ will be so cunning that only the wisest of men will recognize him.So could he be that cunning?

No. I am going to assume that since you reference the Bible that it is fair for me to do the same. Jesus was accused of being Satan in His own time, and here was His response:

Matt 12

22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

sorry, but he doesn't deny it one single time in that passage so don't go high fiving yet.....he uses what they call double speek, giving presupposing answers that never really are definitive....he's just saying if i do this thru satan, then you do too....he never says that he isn't satan.....

Originally posted by Sigismundus
Hi Auraelium -

If by 'Jesus' do you mean R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir (who lived roughly between c. BCE 12 to 36 CE - whose Greek name was 'Iesous' but whose Hebrew name was closer to Joshua) - you know, the one who was strung up for armed sedition against Rome in 36 CE during the Passover (Heb. 'pesach') of the 100th year anniversary (i.e. the centennial year) of the Roman Invasion of Palestine in 63 BCE (see the 3rd Canonical Gospel 'according to Luke, whoever he was, chapter 22:35 ff 'but I say to you now, he who has no Sword of his own on his person, let him sell his Outer Tunic (---and on a cold night too !!!) and go out immediately and get one...and they brought him 2 swords, saying here, Rabbi are two swords - and he said to them, can you possibly think that only 2 swords will be enough ?' etc. )

Yeaaaah . . .

--He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied. (Luke 22:35-38)--

He actually says that two swords IS enough, because it would be the fulfillment of prophecy.

At any rate, in terms of actual titles, this rabbi Yehoshua personage seems to have called himself messianic kingly titles such as 'ha Bar-Enasha' ('the son of man' ) which is an Aramaic phrase taken from the Aramaic Sections of the so-called Book of Daniel see: Dan chapter 7:13ff and linked to the ousted Daviddic monarchy - the daviddds were taken out of power since 587 BCE when Babylon destryoed Eretz Yisroel and killed off as many of the Davidds they could round up).

I will save this one for later . . .

He never called himself 'the Messiah' although he might have referred to himself as 'ha Moreh' (i.e. The 'Teacher') especially if we take a really close look at the verbiage of the 1st canonical Greek gospel ('according to Matthew' whoever he was ) see Matt 26:17ff (The Secret Passover-Preparation Hide Out Scene)

Hey look . . . it is later. Perhaps you should do more studies into the usage of Hebrew phrases and scriptures. Also, for the love of all that is good research the signs that the messiah has come, and what Yeshua spoke to his disciples.

He also made a string of false prophecies which never took place as advertised - 'Amen Amen I say to you, there are SOME WHO ARE STANDING RIGHT HERE NOW who WILL NOT TASTE DEATH UNTIL THEY SEE THE BAR ENASHA COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN, SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER OF THE MOST HIGH with all of his holy ones with him..." etc.

lol. It would help if you actually quote the actual verse, instead of injecting your own words.

--I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:28)--

Yeshua tells Pilate that His kingdom is not of this world. He also says that if one is not born in water and spirit, one may not enter the Kingdom of YHWH.

Yeshua's kingdom is spiritual, and it did come at Pentecost.

What is worse, is that the canonical greek gospels place this kind of language into the pre-Trial interrogation scene with Yosef Kaiphah (Joseph Kaiphas) e.g. the 2nd canonical Greek gospel ('according to Mark' whoever he was, chapter 14:61

And then? How exactly what you wrote "worse?"

'Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One or not?' And he spoke saying, I am that I am (Gk Ego Eimi); and SOON YOU WILL SEE THE BAR-ENASHA RIDING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER OF EL WITH ALL OF HIS HOLY ONES WITH HIM...'

So what is the contention?

Right, sure...that really happened...well, in fact...no such thing ever did happen - ergo he was called a FALSE PROPHET (which is kind of equivalent to a type of AntiMessiah or Anti Christ in certain people's imagination back in those days, no doubt - later Rebbes in the Talmud used to refer to him as 'He whose name which May Not Be Spoken' - for in their minds, he WAS an antiChrist or at least one of the many many many False and Failed Christ-Messiahs running around back then before Jerusalem was ground to powder by the Romans (CCE 66-72) in the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome...

You mean . . . the one prophesied by Yeshua?

And since such 'false prophecies' placed into his mouth (especially in the later greek Gospels where we have a Greek speaking Iesous uttering them !!) were circulating widely at the time, naturally, there would be those among shall we say 'more mainstream Judaeans' who would have said things like 'this Yeshua, whom we handed over to Rome - he is clearly an anti-Messiah' (i.e. a 'false Christ') - look, I mean, he was NOT even able to kick out the Kittim ('the Romans') from Eretz Yisroel like he bragged ('the times of the Amorites are fulfilled, repent, and believe the Good News of the Kingdom') but was put to death naked and spread eagled on a cross ! -with no Kingdom of David being realised- crucifixion was his deserved punishment from 'the most High' for speaking false prophecies and performing sorcery 'and leading Yisro'el astray...' !!

You came to that bold conclusion with absolutely no facts to back it up?

Yay for you.

So his closest followers, baffled by his naked and horrible death on a gibbet (strung up as he was along with a bunch of other armed freedom-fighters against Rome, apparently!) began making up stories about thunderclaps on mountain tops ('after six days' like Moses on his own mountain talking with the clan-god of the Jews) and lightning lighting up his body, with thunder (interpreted by the listeners as a voice from EL - no doubt in accordance with the strict Rabinnic Rules set down in books counted among the fragmented surviving scraps of the Dead Sea Scrolls, e.g. the Scroll of the Bronto-Logion - or 'The Book on How to Interpret Thunderclaps') which they took to mean 'This is my son, my elect one, YOU WILL LISTEN TO HIM...!'

Oh, I see. They continued to perpertrate a figment of their imagination . . . even unto their own painful horrible deaths.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Whereas we all know in the book of Deuteronomy (see cchapter 18:22 ff) in the supposedly ancient Torah, it says, 'if any man should dare to utter an Oracle (Heb. Debir) claiming it to come from YHWH but IT DOES NOT TAKE PLACE as he spoke (i.e. as advertised) THAT MAN IS A FALSE PROPHET - YOU WILL NOT LISTEN TO HIM...!!!"

Yep. But I have not seen any false prophecies from the man, yet.

So to many of the mainstream within Judaiesm in his own time did just that - called him a Messianic Daviddic Pretender, did not listen to him, and believed he 'got what he deserved...'

ANd they, just like modern Judaism, fail at comprehending their own writings. But hey. That was prophesied in the Tanakh as well.

At any rate, one should realise that these made up Transfiguration stories were a lame attempt of the early church gospel writers to make a (ahem) 'prophecy' of his to come true - after the fact - when in fact, it never did any such thing....

Proof?

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

"AND Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (I Chronicles 21:1)


"AND again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (II Samuel 24:1)

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." (Matthew 10:34-37)

"And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16-17)

Originally posted by patternfinder

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

One problem. Light is perfect opposite opposite of darkness. Peace (שָׁלֹ֖ום) is not the perfect opposite of evil (רָ֑ע). The perfect opposite would be calamity (which is the same translation as evil). It is a bad Hebrew to English translation.

"AND Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (I Chronicles 21:1)


"AND again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (II Samuel 24:1)

Umm . . . so both God and Satan pushed David to take a census at different times. What is the issue again?

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." (Matthew 10:34-37)

Yes. He came to teach and live true Torah. Not what was/is taught by the religious leaders. This was bound to cause strife, because people do not want to turn away from their man-made constructs.

And then?

"And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16-17)

Yeshua asked the person why the person called Him good. Only God is good, and by calling Yeshua that, the person was acknowledging Yeshua's deity. The person did not believe in Him, though, or the person would have already known the answer to the question.

]Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by patternfinder

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

One problem. Light is perfect opposite opposite of darkness. Peace (שָׁלֹ֖ום) is not the perfect opposite of evil (רָ֑ע). The perfect opposite would be calamity (which is the same translation as evil). It is a bad Hebrew to English translation.

first, don't tell me that dark is a perfect opposite of light, light and dark are only levels of each....there is no such thing as perfect opposites, only levels that we can choose to inject a virtual zero point into so we can bring about some kind of measurement.......regardless, God creates everything in the world, nothing can be known without his knowing it first, nothing can be done without his agreement that it can be done first.....you as a person create nothing....only god creates........if it is not his creation, then it will not be done, even "evil" (which could be covered by a whole thread in it's own of what it really is)...if you say he does not create "evil" then who does...if you say we do, then you are taking from God's powers and calling it your own.....

"AND Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (I Chronicles 21:1)


"AND again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (II Samuel 24:1)

Umm . . . so both God and Satan pushed David to take a census at different times. What is the issue again?

read you bible again, same instance, not a different times.....samuel decided to refer to the situation as God's anger moved and chroniclesl referred to the same situation as satan provoked......

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by patternfinder

"And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16-17)

Yeshua asked the person why the person called Him good. Only God is good, and by calling Yeshua that, the person was acknowledging Yeshua's deity. The person did not believe in Him, though, or the person would have already known the answer to the question.

that blows the idea that jesus was God right out of the water then....he admits right there that he isn't God.....

No problem I think that passage explains exactly why Jesus could not possibly be Satan or antichrist, or anything of the sort. There's really no need to reference anything else, because it states it in as clear a language as possible. Everything Jesus did represented the exact OPPOSITE of Satan's will and wrecked Satan's kingdom (temporarily, but he's made quite the comeback). But the religious law keepers of the time (pharisees, sadducees, etc.) despised what Jesus preached to the masses, because it undermined their control of the populace and exposed them for the power-hungry, selfish tyrants that they really were. They did everything they could to discredit Him right up to killing Him for trumped-up crimes. The text in the OP just shows that their influence is still around even today among some Jewish scholars.

reply to post by SavedOne


I think this should be repeated again!

To know Jesus you first have to get to know him. It is really hard to sum up in one sentence what He did and what He was all about. It is AMAZING when you find this Truth. People just don't get it and they won't until they investigate them self. You cannot do it by reading one scripture, one Gospel, or ANY Jesus related material that speaks to your spirit.

If one speaks to me that is not out of love....I discount it to the opposite of Love and that I call Fear. It simply does not connect.

One mans words I have grown up with and I cherish is definitely Jesus Christ. Not because I was made to...because I connected with the words, in my inner being. We all have it. Once a person begins to truly seek and get to know Jesus they transform....become more empathetic....more loving and wanting to live as he taught.

We know by getting to know him how he wanted us to live. He showed us and spoke the only way he knew and that was in parables. Maybe he knew each generation would have to decipher what it means to them in their day and time....I don't know. I do know He needs to be sought out by all before you discount His Word/words.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Ah Thanks.

I had never heard or read of "Law" in a religious context. Since "Law" was capitalized I figured it must have had a special meaning.

Originally posted by patternfinder

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by patternfinder

"And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16-17)

Yeshua asked the person why the person called Him good. Only God is good, and by calling Yeshua that, the person was acknowledging Yeshua's deity. The person did not believe in Him, though, or the person would have already known the answer to the question.

that blows the idea that jesus was God right out of the water then....he admits right there that he isn't God.....

edit on 24-8-2011 by patternfinder because: (no reason given)

Not quite. He is, in actuality, rebuking the person for not believing what was taught in the Tanakh.

There are quite a few passages that Yeshua says that He is good (i.e. the good shepherd). He also uses other sayings equating to deity. The Aleph and the Tav, the I AM, the salvation of Israel, etc.

reply to post by Bleeeeep


No problem. Torah means law/instruction in Hebrew. The books of Moses (Torah) are YHWH's law/instructions for the people.

Glad to help out.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by patternfinder

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by patternfinder

"And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16-17)

Yeshua asked the person why the person called Him good. Only God is good, and by calling Yeshua that, the person was acknowledging Yeshua's deity. The person did not believe in Him, though, or the person would have already known the answer to the question.

that blows the idea that jesus was God right out of the water then....he admits right there that he isn't God.....

edit on 24-8-2011 by patternfinder because: (no reason given)

Not quite. He is, in actuality, rebuking the person for not believing what was taught in the Tanakh.

There are quite a few passages that Yeshua says that He is good (i.e. the good shepherd). He also uses other sayings equating to deity. The Aleph and the Tav, the I AM, the salvation of Israel, etc.

sorry, but this scripture is of him putting a decisive division between he and God.....he may say in other scriptures that he is good, but this one here, he is making a division....

I don't think Jesus ever proclaimed himself a King in anyway?He proclaimed himself to be the Son of Man from the Father as came as a Servant and lived his Earthly life accordingly.A very simple NO suffices for this thread.

I found this site last week and have been obessed with the research and information found in it.
Play on Words....Beware of misinterrupting the words used by those in power.

There are actually two Jesus’s. Our Lord Jesus Christ (God), son of the Our Lady, is the Catholic "Jesus." Our God's adversary is the Jesus of the Bible, the son of David, the Lord Jesus, the son of the Morning Star (Lucifer). Yes, this is the heretical Jesus you have heard about and here are some scans from a heretical 1883 Haydock Revision “Catholic” Bible to prove this Masonic tactic of inventing another Jesus in an effort to deny Jesus Christ's Divinity. Today’s Bibles purposely omit this extremely important distinction in an attempt to drag as many Catholics into Hell. This is the heresy, or denial of the Divinity of Christ that the Dogmas warn about- and this is why we pray the Rosary, the best weapon against heresy, to overcome this "sacred lie." Remember that heresy is the gates of Hell.

For more see:

THE KABBALISTIC/ARYAN BEAST:

PURPOSELY CONFUSING JESUS CHRIST, OUR LORD AND GOD, WITH THE STORY AND BLOODLINE OF THE JEWISH JESUS, SON OF DAVID (THE DEVIL)

Source

Originally posted by patternfinder

. . .
sorry, but this scripture is of him putting a decisive division between he and God.....he may say in other scriptures that he is good, but this one here, he is making a division....

Again, he is chastising the person. He is saying that only YHWH is good, so why does the person call Yeshua good, if the person does not believe He is God. There is no division.

If you would take the passage in context, you will see this, as the man walks away from Yeshua, refusing to do as He says, because the person does not want to lose their wealth.

But that does not fit your agenda.

reply to post by relocator


So . . . the Jewish Yeshua that kept Torah is the false one. The one who did not keep Torah, but added on more man-made rules is the correct one.

And that is logical how?

Originally posted by auraelium

Originally posted by stainlesssteelrat
reply to post by auraelium

 

I nearly spat coke on screen after this popped out in new threads

. Why religious people are so eager to look for devil's work everywhere. And hey, if you follow this whole story, satan was created by god, and guess what can oppose god's will.... umm... nothing?

Im not religious i dont even believe in God.I posted it because i found it intrigueing that Jesus fits so many of the the characteristics attributed to the anti-christ in the bible itself.

That's brilliant!

"Ante" in the Greek doesn't mean "against" or "opposite of" as it does in English. In Greek it means "IN PLACE OF". Meaning the antichrist will be an impostor of Christ, a pseudo-Christ.

Originally posted by mugger
I don't think Jesus ever proclaimed himself a King in anyway?He proclaimed himself to be the Son of Man from the Father as came as a Servant and lived his Earthly life accordingly.A very simple NO suffices for this thread.

He said His kingdom was not of this world to Pilate. If He has a kingdom then what is He???

?






??

Sounds to me like a religion was made and the people who made it wanted to ensure they stood in control so wrote passages claiming anyone who disagrees with them should be put to death.


Sounds like a sane bunch of rational thinkers who only seek to better the human race, amirite?


Organize religion, the biggest scam on planet Earth.

Originally posted by Gakus
Sounds to me like a religion was made and the people who made it wanted to ensure they stood in control so wrote passages claiming anyone who disagrees with them should be put to death.

Wait, now were talking about Islam?

I'm lost....

There are almost 4 pages to read..its late and I am tired...

But, I wanted to share a story with you, before going to sleep.

I was raised christian, all my years living at home. It never felt "right"..I hated holidays, always felt obligated, even as a young child.

After I moved out of my parents house, I didn't attend church any longer. I don't know if i was rebelling, or just following my spirit/gut.

So, long story short..in my late 20's I ran into an old friend from Jr High School, who was a born again christian..she convinced to go to church with her. I promised for many months I would go...never showed up. One day, I showed up. I started going back to church. I liked it (at the time)...but still had questions/reservations.

I started reading the bible, from the start to finish...learned Hebrew on my own, read the Torah...and it didn't make sense....the church claimed that the old testament was done away, nailed to the cross...but I didn't see that in my studies...the OT said very clearly that G-D changes not. His word is eternal...yet the christian/new testament believers said the OT was done away with.

While studying the NT...I read a few scriptures that really bothered me....it said: Enter ye in at the strait gate - Our Savior seems to allude here to the distinction between the public and private ways mentioned by the Jewish lawyers. The public roads were allowed to be sixteen cubits broad, the private ways only four. The words in the original are very emphatic: Enter in (to the kingdom of heaven) through This strait gate, δια της στενης πυλης, i.e. of doing to every one as you would he should do unto you; for this alone seems to be the strait gate which our Lord alludes to.

For wide is the gate - And very broad, ευρυχωρος, from ευρυς, broad, and χωρος, a place, a spacious roomy place, that leadeth forward, απαγουσα, into That destruction, εις την απωλειαν, meaning eternal misery; intimating, that it is much more congenial, to the revengeful, covetous heart of fallen man, to take every advantage of another, and to enrich himself at his expense, rather than to walk according to the rule laid down before, by our blessed Lord, and that acting contrary to it is the way to everlasting misery. With those who say it means repentance, and forsaking sin, I can have no controversy. That is certainly a gate, and a strait one too, through which every sinner must turn to God, in order to find salvation. But the doing to every one as we would they should do unto us, is a gate extremely strait, and very difficult, to every unregenerate mind.

I started to question the broad and narrow gate...I prayed before going to sleep for the meaning/truth of what that meant. I had a dream one night...and I turned away from the "church", "christian" believers.

My dream was this (I am tired, and its late) so short version...I was in a church, at a wedding. There were people every where...I dropped my kids of at the nursery (so I could attend the wedding). I was uncomfortable with the "staff"...I didn't want to leave my kids, but I did because I had to be at the wedding.

The wedding started. There was a huge crowd. The bride and groom walked down the isle...although, I never saw their faces. The crowd was huge. The pastor (who was a new and Jr pastor at the church I was attending) was doing the service, looked at me with the most evil look I have ever seen (I can still see it to this day, 15 years later). I saw people doing things in the crowd that was disgusting. They were having sex..every kind you could imagine.

The pastor all of a sudden became evil..he looked like "the devil"..not loving, kind, or giving at all...a control freak. I tried to leave the service, and he made a comment on the loud speaker that I was trying to "escape", and for those in the congregation to capture me. I tried to run...they chased me..until they caught me. Once they caught me, they tried to convince me that i was needing help, and that I would burn in hell if I didn't follow their "Jesus".

At that moment in my dream, I told them I did not believe in their "Jesus"..and I would no longer be a part of their brainwashing...they had many people who "tried" to get me to stay, and believe...but I would not listen.

Many church members got Pissed off...but I didn't care. I was over the "church", done with "man made religion" , and manipulation from some guy on the stage,....DONE!

Never went back...left the "church"..want nothing to do with the church, holidays, holydays, etc...DONE! For good..