China's Debt Problem Worse than Portugal

reply to post by eLPresidente

...They could've dropped the rating a LONG time ago when China's Dagong did first. It was pre-meditated and done for a reason, they want to create panic in the markets where smart money (insiders/execs/elite) win, and the people lose. This is a formula that has always worked, same as 08 crash, same as whatever, just look at the big picture....

Oh there is no doubt that it was manipulation. One of the side bennies is all the potshots they can now take at the Tea Party who wants to get rid of or at least leash the FED.

They really need to get a handle on the real Grass Roots movement against the Fed. This is one of the methods as is the "Racist" card and the "Religious FAR- Right" card. The last thing TPTB wants is the left and the right rank and file to start talking to each other and to unite under a "leash/Destroy the FED" banner.


That was one reason. The long term goal is of course is GLOBAL GOVERNANCE:

China is playing the part that has been mapped out for it.

China blasts US, urges new global reserve currency

...China's official news agency said in a commentary.
"International supervision over the issue of US dollars should be introduced and a new, stable and secured global reserve currency may also be an option to avert a catastrophe caused by any single country,"

The UN has its "Commission on Global Governance" This is an older statement by one of the members of the Commission and a senior advisor of the World Bank

"The impulse to possess turf is a powerful one for all species; yet it is one that people must overcome." ...

"global rules of custom constrain the freedom of sovereign states," ...

"sensitivity over the relationship between international responsibility and national sovereignty [is a] considerable obstacle to the leadership at the international level,"....

"Although states are sovereign, they are not free individually to do whatever they want." - Maurice Strong, a member of the Commission, and a likely candidate for the position of Secretary General, said in an essay entitled Stockholm to Rio: A Journey Down a Generation: "It is simply not feasible for sovereignty to be exercised unilaterally by individual nation-states, however powerful. It is a principle which will yield only slowly and reluctantly to the imperatives of global environmental cooperation." sovereignty.net...

From a year ago there is the view of GLOBAL GOVERNANCE by the directer of the World Trade Organization - Article - Of What Use is Global Governance? | The Global Journal
He considers the European Union as the intermediate step along the path to "global governance"

...the very incarnation of an international organization of integration in which Member States have agreed to relinquish sovereignty in order to strengthen the coherence and effectiveness of their actions.

...If there is one place on earth where new forms of global governance have been tested since the Second World War, it is in Europe. European integration is the most ambitious supranational governance experience ever undertaken. It is the story of interdependence desired, defined, and organized by the Member States. In no respect is the work complete—neither geographically nor in terms of depth (i.e., the powers conferred by the Member States to the E.U.), nor, obviously, in terms of identity....

Our challenge today is to establish a system of global governance that provides a better balance between leadership, effectiveness, and legitimacy on the one hand, and coherence on the other...

More recently we have the Atlantic Council reports.

Global Governance 2025 | Atlantic Council

This report analyzes the gap between current international governance institutions, organizations and norms and the demands for global governance likely to be posed by long-term strategic challenges over the next 15 years. The report is the product of research and analysis by the NIC and EUISS following a series of international dialogues co-organized by the Atlantic Council, TPN, and other partner organizations in Beijing, Tokyo, Dubai, New Delhi, Pretoria, Sao Paulo & Brasilia, Moscow, and Paris. The executive summary is below.

Executive Summary
Global governance—the collective management of common problems at the international level—is at a critical juncture.....

Globa l Governance 2025 Planned by US & EU Intelligence Agencies Document Obtained Thru FOIA. You may read this September 2010 report, courtesy of our Freedom of Information Act, at cia.gov.

Originally posted by Maxmars

Originally posted by Solasis

reply to post by Maxmars

 

Aaah... That all makes a kind of sense while also flying right over my head. Thank you.

.... I'm sorry... I guess I slipped into 'babbling' mode there...

Oh! sorry, I mis-spoke. It wasn't because of you, it was because I just do not understand most of this stuff, haha. That's why I'm mostly not saying anything about the actual issue that's not glib

(Though I am not being off-topic; i'm engaging the bits that are about motivation and conclusions reached and whatnot. The bits that I can engage in, since I can comprehend them, hehe)

Originally posted by crimvelvet
The last thing TPTB wants is the left and the right rank and file to start talking to each other and to unite under a "leash/Destroy the FED" banner.

If that's true, wouldn't a better way of fighting TPTB be to get the right and left to talk to each other? I could definitely get behind that, if we dropped the TPTB bashing rhetoric, simply because it makes people from both sides think we're nuts. Which, if there is a hidden force behind all of this, is probably the way They want it.

reply to post by haarvik


HMMmm I can no longer connect to that page at fox news.

reply to post by crimvelvet


Very strange, it is no longer listed on Fox News. Wonder why they pulled the story?

Originally posted by crimvelvet
reply to post by haarvik

 

HMMmm I can no longer connect to that page at fox news.

TPTB in China have probably hacked it because of the sensitivity nature of the Topic

In the meantime here is another perceptive.
China can't afford to be too gloating

In the famous strategic guidance he gave his comrades in the Communist Party, the father of China's modernisation, Deng Xiaoping, said: "Hide your strength, bide your time, and do what you can."

Brady says: "In the last 10 years, particularly since the financial crisis hit in 2008, there's been a shift towards the last part, 'do what you can'," in the behaviour of the Chinese leadership. "That's code for standing up for China's interests. But this is looking to be beyond that. It's quite harsh."

It's also pretty brave of China to make the boast that US government debt, which, on its new, lower assessment from Standard & Poor's, is rated AA+, is untrustworthy. Because the same agency rates Chinese government debt as A+, which is three rankings lower. And this leads to the third feature of China's criticism: its potential effect.

"It's probably pretty hard for the Chinese to resist the temptation to gloat," White says, "but from the US point of view, this would confirm US anxieties about China. "China wants to end up on top," White suggests, "but the secret is to exercise great patience. This tells the US that China is out to get them. Nothing would galvanise the US to get its act together better than the sense that China is out to eat their lunch. Strategically, gloating is unwise."

Finally, Beijing's critiques of the US include several admonitions for America to solve the structural problem of its deficits and to end its reliance on "the deep pockets of major surplus countries". Chief among these, of course, is China. This raises the question of China's role - because China is the yin to America's yang, the surplus to its deficits.

I found a really interesting report done by the state of Connecticut listing the may 2010 debt to GNP and debt per capita from Moodys: www.vermonttreasurer.gov...

The USA debt of course is split between National and Sate debts which complicates matters. China is a heck of a long way down the list near the bottom and no where near what this report is saying.

Here are some of the the 2010 figures:

Table 4: Debt to GDP Ratio
Zimbabwe - 241. 6%
Japan - 196. 0%
Greece - 144. 0%
Iceland - 123. 8%

Ireland - 98. 5%
France - 83. 5%
Portugal - 83. 2%
Canada - 82. 9%
United Kingdom - 76. 5%
Germany - 74. 8%
Spain - 63. 4%

United States - 58. 9%
states range from 0.03% to 8. 32% with state ranked as # 25 at 2. 24%

China - 17. 5%

Libya - 3. 3%
www.cga.ct.gov...

And the situation gets more and more twisted as you keep digging. THIS report seems to indicate a lot of "off the books" stuff going on that does support the "Breaking News"

China Debt 96 Percent of GDP by 2011
Posted on Thursday, March 4, 2010 by 2point6billion.com

Mar. 4 –

Victor Shih, a respected economist at Northwestern University, has suggested that China’s hidden borrowing will push government debt up to 96 percent of GDP in 2011 and that the expectation of a “large scale” financial crisis in China will come to pass in 2012.

Shih spent months evaluating over 8,000 local China government borrowing transactions and has published his findings in his book “Factions and Finance in China.”

Local government borrowing has surged in recent months and has been unaccounted for in official estimates of China’s debt to GDP ratio, Shih claims. China’s expected debt to GDP ratio for 2010 is 22 percent according to the IMF... www.2point6billion.com...

Originally posted by eLPresidente

I love American mentality, almost comic-like.

It cracks me up too, the US reminds me of a bully whos the king in school where everything is solved by violence and had no long term plan at all. When they grow up, they get stuck in some dead end job and is angry as they can no longer get what they want.

The Chinese remind me of a geek who studied hard, worked out how to get ahead in life and ended up as the boss of the bully who has the dead end job.

Sadly, the article does not take into account Chinese current account surplus. Similar to Japan. The Fox business report is extremely misleading; ignores many factors, including trade surplus as well. And the credit rating? China was recently upgraded.

Originally posted by crimvelvet
I found a really interesting report done by the state of Connecticut listing the may 2010 debt to GNP and debt per capita from Moodys: www.vermonttreasurer.gov...

The USA debt of course is split between National and Sate debts which complicates matters. China is a heck of a long way down the list near the bottom and no where near what this report is saying.

Here are some of the the 2010 figures:

Table 4: Debt to GDP Ratio
Zimbabwe - 241. 6%
Japan - 196. 0%
Greece - 144. 0%
Iceland - 123. 8%

Ireland - 98. 5%
France - 83. 5%
Portugal - 83. 2%
Canada - 82. 9%
United Kingdom - 76. 5%
Germany - 74. 8%
Spain - 63. 4%

United States - 58. 9%
states range from 0.03% to 8. 32% with state ranked as # 25 at 2. 24%

China - 17. 5%

Libya - 3. 3%
www.cga.ct.gov...

I definitely found the original article in the OP very odd, I mean..fox business...LOL!

China's debt is indeed high but like I said earlier, tons of it is being spent on infrastructure for future thriving China. In the next few years, millions and millions of Chinese are expected to migrate from rural areas to cities for work and better living standards, this is why they're spending trillions on high speed rail systems, air ports, business parks, advanced cities, etc...

China has a hell of a lot better chance to pay off it's debts in contrast to America, why? because they make stuff and export it, people import it and buy it. Simple as that. America can only sell so many drugs and weapons.

reply to post by alfa1


Maybe you should hang around the boards a little bit more before you try to act like a mod. Two threads are allowed, even if they're talking about the exact same thing so long as one is in the BAN forum, like this one is.

reply to post by Solasis

If that's true, wouldn't a better way of fighting TPTB be to get the right and left to talk to each other? I could definitely get behind that, if we dropped the TPTB bashing rhetoric, simply because it makes people from both sides think we're nuts. Which, if there is a hidden force behind all of this, is probably the way They want it.

I directly target the Fed and Fractional Reserve Banking when I talk to people outside ATS. There is absolutely no need to spin "conspiracy theories" the hard data is plenty good enough to Tick off most people from the left right and center. No one likes to find out they are the victim of a massive con-game.

This is the court case where bankers were found guilty of FRAUD.
First National Bank of Montgomery vs. Daly (1969) - www.webofdebt.com...

Simple explanation of FRB: www.truthexpo.com...

Highbrow explanation, It is long but very readable.:
A PRIMER ON MONEY. SUBCOMMITTEE ON DOMESTIC FINANCE. COMMITTEE ON BANKING AND CURRENCY. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. 88th Congress, 2d Session www.famguardian.org...




Confession from Canadian Central Banker:
Money Is Created by Banks Evidence Given by Graham F. Towers, Governor of the Central Bank of Canada (1934) www.michaeljournal.org...

*US Banks Operating Without Reserve Requirements: www.marketskeptics.com...


And if you want to get them REALLY angry: The stuff behind all the bank foreclosures:

How the AIG Bailout Could be Driving More Foreclosures: www.realtytrac.com...

Explanation of the Financial Meltdown: www.democracynow.org...

List of Bank laws and a short blurb so you can SEE how Congress set us up by repealing the Depression era banking laws passed to PREVENT another Great Depression:
Important Banking Legislation from Library of the FDIC: www.fdic.gov...

reply to post by haarvik


Oh, please don't worry, China will be just fine. The USA sends them $65 million a year in aid. Between Japan, Germany, France, Britain and the USA China receives over $2 billion a year in aid.

Harm None
Peace

reply to post by haarvik

Very strange, it is no longer listed on Fox News. Wonder why they pulled the story?

It looks like someone may have been talking without permission.

TPTB can not use China to whip up anger against the US dollar and call for its replacement as World Reserve Currency if it becomes widely know that China was cooking the books to give themselves a much higher rating.

Boy are heads going to roll on THAT SNAFU

Looks like the cat is out of the bag with my link to an earlier University study. We better take a snap shot and cash it!

Here is a different report about the same study done a year ago.

.....He has estimated that when you take into account the massive indebtedness of the local investment companies, government-related debt in China would, by next year, be close to RMB 40 trillion ($7 trillion) or 96 per cent of GDP and 4.6 times government revenue.

Shih's estimate would place China among the countries with the highest debt to GDP ratio, although it should be noted that China's debt (like that of Japan) is almost entirely funded from its own domestic sources.

And those domestic sources are the prudent households of China who have been depositing their savings in banks at deliberately depressed official interest rates. By lending at low, indeed negative real, interest rates the thrifty households of China have been subsidising what is all-too-often speculative and wasteful investment by government-owned companies..... worldeconomy-wingate.blogspot.com...

I proposed on several occasions that the USA needs to get out of the Free Trade agreements. They hurt the USA. They hurt third world countries. The ONLY ones the Free Trade Agreements benefit are the Huge International Corporate Cartels and no one else.


I explained this in detail in two posts last night with the usual links.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...


If the US citizen finally wake up and kick the long term traitors OUT of Congress AND the Newbies do nix the WTO, NAFTA and impose import taxes as I suggest, then CHINA is going to be in a world of hurt.

Her industrialization needs export and if the USA rebuilds her industry and other countries follow suit her people will have to withdraw their savings and that would defund their over-bloated government.

Also if the USA does start producing and selling within country again it puts a BIG dent in the plans of TPTB. Interdependence is a key component in their choke chain on international sovereignty. That is why the UN and WTO has targeted wiping out "Food Sovereignty"

This is from an independent Socialist Mag. The have a good analysis of the problem: From Food Crisis to Food Sovereignty: monthlyreview.org...

reply to post by eLPresidente

China has a hell of a lot better chance to pay off it's debts in contrast to America, why? because they make stuff and export it, people import it and buy it. Simple as that. America can only sell so many drugs and weapons.

I agree.

That is because China is FOR China.

The Chinese people do not have a bunch of traitors in their government more interested in forming a "New World Order" (Global Govenance) by evasculating their country's education system, manufacturing and now its agriculture, than in governing well.

China is a poor nation despite the seemingly enormous amounts of funds they hold. But one must compare its population size to others to know that for all its weath, it only amounts to a few thousands of dollars to its citizens if split equally with nothing for tomorrow.

And it does not split equally, for its funds had never been social spending for its people such as education, healthcare and infrastructure. Just sneak beyond their sparkling cities into the countrysides and you will shocked by their level of poverty. And that poverty is widespread in terms of billion of people.

Their wealth had only been spent on paying corrupt regimes in asia and africa for domination and resources, as well as recently building up their military might during our era of peace. Furthermore, much that wealth had been siphoned off by the rich and corrupt. Almost everything you see is FAKE in china under the CCP, which hurts not only their own citizens, but others who trusted them and bought their products. Only their bootlickers are singing their praises.

When SHTF as it will in a matter of days if not hours from now, China will be broke. Most of that wealth would had already been either hoarded up by the corrupt of fled to safer shores. No one, but the foolish few would hoard money in China. If the CCP would murder their own unarmed youths, why would they bother to protect foreigners???

If they attempt hostilities to grab wealth in order to maintain their power, the CCP will face an armed Asia ready to fight back, unlike during the 40s when Imperial Japan walked over to rob asia. Not only that, the 5th column of their own citizens whom yearns for freedom will only be too glad to strike when the military presence is lessen to conduct war overseas.

There is a bigger picture played out by this financial crisis than just economics. The sufferings and cries from mankind had been heard.

You all crack me up. China is NOT in a worse financial state than portugal.
You all hate big bad china, but who do you think just bailed you americans out S%$# lately?
And Who has spent more than the world bank on helping developing countries in 2009- 2010 ?
Yes China would be the correct answer, Not America. CHINA.
So by this alone America is worse off than portugal NOT CHINA.
So yes,,,Of cause China needs its Trillion dollars that they lent you americans. A trillion dollars IS alot of money.
But, by no means is it Doomed financially if you cant pay this HUGE debt back.
And No one in debt lends money to people when lending said money could bankrupt itself. Only an idiot would. And only an IDIOT would believe that they would.
American you are like a drug addict now, You once were the worlds drug dealer selling your S@#* to anyone that bought it. And making your demands with it. But now, you are just the drug addict and just like drug addicts your US government seem to get their drugs ( money) on credit.
And we all know what happens to drug addicts that cant pay their bill, dont we??????
So i would be the one that is worried about your own debt problems if i were you.
And just remember people, America you aren't the bad boys on the block anymore