Giant Optical Magnifying Glasses in space found

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by XPLodER

 

In order to truly test this, we'd have to know the redshift of the light at the focal point, as compared to the galaxy itself. Appearances can, after all, be deceiving. Thus, we can't rely merely on observation.

For instance...based on observation alone, I would agree that this appears to be a prime candidate for proving your theory.

i will track down the redshift figuars and post here for consumption,NGC 4911

With a redshift of 0.027 this spiral galaxy lies 320 million light years away from us. It’s NGC 4911, a spiral galaxy in the Coma Cluster; a city of galaxies gravitationally bound to each other in the constellation Coma Berenices. LEDA 83751 – the larger elliptical overlapping the galaxy – is actually sat in front of the spiral, which isn’t the best situation for overlap hunters:


Overlapping galaxies are especially useful to Bill and other astronomers interested in dust – the background galaxy acts like a torch, showing what the dust is doing in the former one. The best situation is an elliptical being further away than a spiral, since spirals tend to be dustier and more interesting. Sadly this pair appears to have the bad manners to be the other way round. How rude .

so the "focal area" is atributed to "dust" in this explination from 13 August 2010
and these are described as

overlapping galaxies,

This category contains articles on galaxies which overlap to form occulting pairs. This is a visual alignment, and do not necessarily involve gravitational interaction.

wiki source

i will now complie more "observational evidence " and try to find red shifts for NGC 4911

be back soon

xploder

double post
this thread is loading slow today
xp

Abstract

We present in this paper a substructure and spectroimaging study of the Coma cluster of galaxies based on XMM-Newton data. XMM-Newton performed a mosaic of observations of Coma to ensure a large coverage of the cluster. We add the different pointings together and fit elliptical beta-models to the data. We subtract the cluster models from the data and look for residuals, which can be interpreted as substructure. We find several significant structures: the well-known subgroup connected to NGC4839 in the South-West of the cluster, and another substructure located between NGC 4839 and the centre of the Coma cluster. Constructing a hardness ratio image, which can be used as a temperature map we see that in front of this new structure the temperature is significantly increased (higher or equal 10 keV). We interpret this temperature enhancement as the result of heating as this structure falls onto the Coma cluster. We furthermore reconfirm the filament-like structure South-East of the cluster centre. This region is significantly cooler than the mean cluster temperature. We estimate the temperature of this structure to be equal or below 1keV. A possible scenario to explain the observed features is stripping caused by the infall of a small group of galaxies located around the two galaxies NGC4921 and NGC4911 into the Coma cluster with a non-zero impact parameter. We also see significant X-ray depressions North and South-East of NGC4921, which might either be linked to tidal forces due to the merger with the Western structure or connected to an older cluster merger.

link to source

ref

xploder

Abstract: The Coma cluster of galaxies was observed with the position sensitive proportional counter (PSPC) during the ROSAT all sky survey. We find evidence for substructure in this cluster. Diffuse X-ray emission is detected from the regions of the NGC 4839 and 4911 subgroups at 6 percent and 1 percent of the total cluster emission respectively. There may be emission associated with the NGC 4874 and 4889 subgroups as well. The NGC 4839 group appears to be in the process of merging with the cluster. These X-ray data show that at least some of the groups previously found in projection are in fact physical objects possessing potential wells deep enough to trap their own X-ray gas. Because of the unlimited field of view of the all sky survey and the low background of the PSPC, we were able to measure the azimuthally averaged surface brightness of Coma out to approximately 100 arcmin, twice as far as was previously possible. Given the validity of our mass models, these new X-ray data imply that within 5(2h)-1 Mpc the
binding mass of the Coma cluster is Mbind = 1.8 × 1015M(2h)-1, and
the fraction of cluster mass contained in hot gas is [0.30 ± 0.14(2h)-3/2]. Furthermore, the binding mass is more centrally concentrated than is the X-ray gas.

source

Abstract: We describe a wavelet transform analysis of the ROSAT PSPC images of the Coma cluster. On small scales, ~< 1', the wavelet analysis shows substructure dominated by two extended sources surrounding the two brightest cluster galaxies NGC 4874 and NGC 4889. On slightly larger scales, ~2', the wavelet analysis reveals a filament of X-ray emission originating near the cluster center, curving to the south and east for ~25' in the direction of the galaxy NGC 4911, and ending near the galaxy NGC 4921. These results extend earlier ROSAT observations and further indicate the complex nature of the cluster core. We consider two possible explanations for the production of the filamentary feature as arising from interactions of the main cluster with a merging group. The feature could arise from either ram pressure stripped gas or a dark matter perturbation of tidally stripped material.

same source




xploder

e 20-80 keV flux of a possible non-thermal component in the cluster spectrum is fX = 6 × 10-12 erg cm-2 s-1.
It is unlikely that the IC scattering of CMB photons is able to produce hard X-ray flux at these levels, unless the magnetic field strength is as low as 0.2 µG. The latter value can be considered as a lower limit on the field strength in Coma.
We also present a temperature map of the central part of the cluster, which shows significant variations and in particular, a hot, ~11.5 keV, region in the extension towards the subcluster infalling from the South-West.

source

infalling gas?

xploder

reply to post by CLPrime


without the red shift data,
i conclude that looking at the evidence outside of redshift data this is a foci signature of a gravitational lensing event.

this is based on the optical evidence and is devoid of redshift data and spectral analisys,
i belevie that taken on the circumstantial evidence of observational data that this cluster is indeed a large scale gravitational event with a detectable focal point that is illuminating gas at the focal point.

i have been looking for the required redshift data and so far have not found conclusive shift detail from the other objects in the image.

to me this is exactly what i would expect to see
what is your opinion /
and can you help complile the red shift data?

xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


If you can't track down the data, I probably won't be able to do much better. However, like you, without the redshift data, I would have to agree that it does superficially appear to be a prime candidate to observationally prove your theory. Like I've said before, what's interesting to me is not the observation possibility that your theory might be right, it's the mathematically/physical probability that it should be right. Based on that, I would fully expect to find examples of the effect you describe... examples which just happen to perfectly match what you have provided.

This leaves me with no reason (for now) to doubt that what you present is, in fact, an example of what your theory expects to find.

I will certainly see what I can do, though, about tracking down the redshift data.

reply to post by CLPrime


thank you for the help,
i will see if phage can come up with the required redshift data,
that guy is like a text book with links to all the data.

again i thank you
this idea has taken alot of my time and energy and i thank you for the hours you have put in thus far.....
i hope that between us we should be able to compile a compelling argument in favour of my thesis

i will now open a bottle of the good stuff to celebrate what i consider a likely candidate for gravitational foci
xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


After some searching (here was a good source), it seems that the bright "focal point" region (which is called NGC4911A) is, in fact, exactly where you would expect to find a focal point... directly in front of the spiral galaxy.

From the size of the main galaxy, NGC4911, we could easily see how far away NGC4911A is, and see if it fits the lensing theory, given 4911's rotation curve.

reply to post by CLPrime


i have been looking at the coma cluster in radio wavelengths,
some very interesting things can be infered from the following image

Minimum credit line: Image courtesy of NRAO/AUI and Neal Miller, Jansky Fellow of the NRAO

The heart of Abell 1656, the Coma Cluster, is highlighted by spectacular radio emission from NGC4874 and NGC4869. Optical data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (www.sdss.org...) shows numerous galaxies whose light is dominated by old stars and appears reddish-yellow in the image. Radio emission from the galaxies, shown in blue and captured by the National Radio Astronomy Observatory's Very Large Array, reveals the remarkable activity originating in the massive black holes at the centers of NGC4874 (large galaxy to the left with two compact lobes of radio emission) and NGC4869 (galaxy at lower middle with the dramatic tail of radio emission). Galaxies much farther away than the Coma Cluster generally appear as reddish smudges, although some also harbor active black holes with radio emission like the small blue objects to the lower right of the image.

link to source

still no redshift data,
only optical and radio data to go by which is not conclusive,
notice the radio output
cool huh

xploder

reply to post by CLPrime


i have been looking at the coma cluster in radio wavelengths,
some very interesting things can be infered from the following image

Minimum credit line: Image courtesy of NRAO/AUI and Neal Miller, Jansky Fellow of the NRAO

The heart of Abell 1656, the Coma Cluster, is highlighted by spectacular radio emission from NGC4874 and NGC4869. Optical data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (www.sdss.org...) shows numerous galaxies whose light is dominated by old stars and appears reddish-yellow in the image. Radio emission from the galaxies, shown in blue and captured by the National Radio Astronomy Observatory's Very Large Array, reveals the remarkable activity originating in the massive black holes at the centers of NGC4874 (large galaxy to the left with two compact lobes of radio emission) and NGC4869 (galaxy at lower middle with the dramatic tail of radio emission). Galaxies much farther away than the Coma Cluster generally appear as reddish smudges, although some also harbor active black holes with radio emission like the small blue objects to the lower right of the image.

link to source

still no redshift data,
only optical and radio data to go by which is not conclusive,
notice the radio output
cool huh

xploder

reply to post by CLPrime


Hey, how did you generate those nice LaTex images? I've only been able to generate PDFs and DVIs. This would be useful for me, since I am a math buff.

reply to post by 547000


They're what you might call faux LaTeX. I just used MS Word's Insert Equation feature to write the equations, and then got a screen shot and put the image of the equation in Paint (yep...Paint). So, not LaTeX, per se...but a poor man's version of it.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by XPLodER

 

If you can't track down the data, I probably won't be able to do much better. However, like you, without the redshift data, I would have to agree that it does superficially appear to be a prime candidate to observationally prove your theory. Like I've said before, what's interesting to me is not the observation possibility that your theory might be right, it's the mathematically/physical probability that it should be right. Based on that, I would fully expect to find examples of the effect you describe... examples which just happen to perfectly match what you have provided.

This leaves me with no reason (for now) to doubt that what you present is, in fact, an example of what your theory expects to find.

I will certainly see what I can do, though, about tracking down the redshift data.

i think i have found something interesting,



it looks to be the outline of a heliospherical lense showing the gravitational microscoping effect at the stella scale,
the brighness and size of the star creating the "bubble" leads me to guess that indeed an image is being gravitational microscoped onto the outter surface of a lens,
is this direct confirmation of my (GM) theory?

i would love your opinion,



look fimilar?

have a look at my avatar for a reference "artistic image" of (GM)

xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


That star, Beta Andromedae (also called Mirach), is 200 light-years away. At this distance, that range is determined by parallax, which means the value of 200 light-years is quite reliable. It's also a semiregular variable, which would aid in double-checking the distance.

Based on observation, Mirach is a class M red giant 90 times the size of the Sun.

Interestingly enough, though, the majority of class M stars are red dwarfs. So, this immediately puts a single question in my mind: could Mirach be a red dwarf gravitationally microscoped to look like a red giant?

I'm not familiar enough with this sort of combination of optics and their effect on redshifts and other physical observations, so I can't really say for sure... but I'd say it's possible.

That actually calls other stars into question, as well. Could other red giants and supergiants (such as Betelgeuse) actually be red dwarfs in disguise?

reply to post by XPLodER


Could you give me your opinion on the screen captures below? Do you think this object/image is the result of gravitational lensing. If not, what do you think it could be? It's from my referenced thread.

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
While looking around wikisky I happened upon something strange, which only led to me finding another strange item. This second strange item is buried in the thread, and at the suggestion of an ATS poster to that thread I am creating this thread devoted to the second found anomaly.

Background:

Original thread
What Gives In Cetus? Google Sky Coordinates 2 26 33 -04 41 37
www.abovetopsecret.com...


Suggestion:

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by this_is_who_we_are

 

This new item is lost in this thread..
I suggest you start another thread just based on asking what the hell that thing is..

Directions for finding anomaly:

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
***HERE THERE BE DIRECTIONS TO OBJECT***

Originally posted by Rocky Black
reply to post by this_is_who_we_are

 

Are you using Wordwide telescope for that image?

Just wondering . I have spent months going through the images with all the neet types of filters and the what not.

RB

From my earlier posts:

"However...
I did find this at these coordinates at the apparent end (bottom) of the vertical line in the Wikiksky.org "DSS2" Survey
02 22 40.68 -07 16 19.2"

"These coordinates work in wikisky.org, but do the following after you paste the coordinates into the search box and click the magnifying glass to search:

Once you've pasted and clicked to search, click the "mouse" icon in the upper left hand corner (Beta Sky Browser Version 2). Then pan in almost all the way. Wait for a few seconds for the image to load. Pan in and out slightly as necessary. The "disk" is as plain as the nose on my face..."

edit on 12/14/2010 by this_is_who_we_are because: header

edit on 12/14/2010 by this_is_who_we_are because: line

The anomaly:

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are

Originally posted by BadBoYeed
i'd say...strange

if you follow the vertical line down, it's also intersected by a blue line

hope we get a good answer

be good

I followed the vertical line all the way to it's apparent end without finding a blue interseting line.

However...
I did find this at these coordinates at the apparent end (bottom) of the vertical line in the Wikiksky.org "DSS2" Survey
02 22 40.68 -07 16 19.2

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8e18aa3a53c1.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1b2e2d495b41.jpg[/atsimg]

Doc: "I apologize for the crudity of this model but I just..."
Marty: "Yeah, I know, Doc. It's not to scale. It's okay, Doc."
Doc: "All right."
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/95c48ed0604f.jpg[/atsimg]


What the deuce?
Pixelation? Looks kind of odd for pixelation. Looks like 8 orbs in a circular pattern with a bright orb on the circumference (right hand side)

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
Use scroller at the bottom of this image I've posted to pan to the right of the image. The coordinates are displayed there.

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
Here are some enhanced captures:

In the initial thread you will also find analysis by Antoniastar. Credit to her.

edit on 12/21/2010 by this_is_who_we_are because: coordinates

Wikisky.org DSS2 Anomaly Coordinates 02 22 40.68, -07 16 19.2
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by XPLodER

 

That star, Beta Andromedae (also called Mirach), is 200 light-years away. At this distance, that range is determined by parallax, which means the value of 200 light-years is quite reliable. It's also a semiregular variable, which would aid in double-checking the distance.

i think if we looked at the stars within the reliable parallex distence we could expect to see some form of gravitational microscoping and this would put the size luminosity distence scale in question

Based on observation, Mirach is a class M red giant 90 times the size of the Sun.

observations derived without taking (GM) into account

Interestingly enough, though, the majority of class M stars are red dwarfs. So, this immediately puts a single question in my mind: could Mirach be a red dwarf gravitationally microscoped to look like a red giant?

short answer is yes the size and brightness would both be increased on the outter surface of the lense and as it is now spread around a circular circumference of greater area (centrally microscoped area)
in this instance i would conclude that the star is acually smaller and less optically red

I'm not familiar enough with this sort of combination of optics and their effect on redshifts and other physical observations, so I can't really say for sure... but I'd say it's possible.

i know that much larger "galaxy lenses" are now know to exibit a red shift bias,
and i would expect a similar if not smaller effect from the light escaping the helio lense.

That actually calls other stars into question, as well. Could other red giants and supergiants (such as Betelgeuse) actually be red dwarfs in disguise?

i would contend there would be an optical colour change from say white to red in a very powerful but very large lensing potential bubble, from the size of betegeuse it would proberly also be in an effective focal coupling of the lenses (ours to host) by size strength distence in a "space based" telescoping arrangement (the lenses "factor" together) to increase the effect at a size/potential/distence manner.

this leads to problems with clasification of stars by colour size luminosity to provide for distence


thank you for the information and your opinion
i will be looking for further optical evidence of redshift acociation with distence to see if there is a corrilation

xploder
thanks CLPrime

reply to post by this_is_who_we_are


please be aware that this is only my opinion and i am not an expert with negitive refractive optics,
with that in mind,
what is see is the gravitational influence on a substence inside a "bubble",
there is a "dark" space where the refactive index is negitive and no light can escape the central "dark bubble"
in front and to the right is a smaller but optically positivly refractive medium "bubble" or lens, with the proximity of the smaller lens and the larger lens, the two "factor against each other" and the negitivly refracting medium becomes refractive through the smaller lens,

it would be like putting a nano sized optical glass ball on a surface under a microscope,
the small glass sphere allows magnification of the underneith surface,

the main difference is instead of magnifying, the smaller lens "allows" a combined refractive index in the positive that allows some light to escape the negitive refractive medium,

the smaller "black" bubbles inside the center bubble but around the edge are mulitipul images of the primary "little lens" (right center) reflected back off the bubble of negitive refractivitys outter surface.

remember this is only my opinion,
and could be a number of lens problems or other factors that could create similar effects as the ones you provide

hope that helps

xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


Thanks. I've been mulling over gravitational lensing as the cause of the "anomaly". Unfortunately I know nothing about it except what I've briefly glanced over here on ATS in a couple of threads. Makes more sense than a "giant spaceship", etc...