Can you give a definition of reality that is both objective and subjective, and provable?

Originally posted by AlienView
To answer the questions to this post intelligent and somewhat meaningful answers have been given; But we return to our previously given [on other sites in the past] conclusions:

".....As stated previously as matter is = to energy / reality is so related to, equal to and often rooted in fantasy. For those of you who would dispute this let me point out that there is no known, provable reality. All beings viewing this communication are seeing it physically and mentally from a different perspective - an absolute physical reality has never been and will never be proven....."

Everything is relative to perspective. What is absolute is free from perspective. Free from awareness. Before the Big Bang

Originally posted by AlienView
To answer the questions to this post intelligent and somewhat meaningful answers have been given; But we return to our previously given [on other sites in the past] conclusions:

".....As stated previously as matter is = to energy / reality is so related to, equal to and often rooted in fantasy. For those of you who would dispute this let me point out that there is no known, provable reality. All beings viewing this communication are seeing it physically and mentally from a different perspective - an absolute physical reality has never been and will never be proven....."

Did you even read my post?

Perception is not primordial. Some very self-focused people might want to believe that it is, but that doesn't change the fact that reality is what allows perception to exist, and not the other way around.

I can't imagine what some of you guys experience as you wander through whatever ether it is that confronts you from moment to moment. I'm serious about this. What does your sky look like on a sunny day? Is it blue, or is there any sky holding a shining sun above you at all?

If I take you at your word (and by you, I mean the collection of you people who refuse to acknowledge any form of stable and consistent reality) and neither add nor subtract anything from it, the impression I get is of people who simply dismiss what exists directly before them in favor of a confusing premise that they read somewhere that we are working hard to manifest within their own lives. Like religious fundamentalists, only without the Jesus/Mohamed/Jehovah archetype to point to for added focus.

I don't like the only other option that exists to explain your stubborn adherence to an assertion that is so profoundly contradictory to what is so widely experienced as mundane and constant. That option is that you people are liars, and that you simply pretend to experience this absolutely unexplainable separation from what the rest of humanity knows to exist just beyond the tips of its fingers. I could suggest insanity, but the truth is that such a level of insanity would be very evident in other aspects of your posts, and those indications aren't there. Therefore, authentic delusion/hallucination, as an explanation, isn't appropriate here. Whatever it is that you've convinced yourself of is either faith-based or based on the idea that others will actually believe that you have found a way to transcend your daily experience to a level that leaves the rest of us behind; mired in the scrubby greens and grays of corporeal existence.

Either way, you do know that when you wake up in the morning you have to put your feet on the floor and walk to the bathroom to take a piss. Then, you either get coffee or toss a quick breakfast together. You know that you've been getting older and older as the years have collected behind you, and you know that if you don't work for someone (even if it's for your clients and/or customers) then you'll lose your home and your ability to function within the society that embraces you. Your assertions of this absolute command over reality does not include the reality that sits just beyond the lenses of your eyes, and since this is the truth of you and your life, I have a real problem with your insistence that it's not and should not be the truth of life and reality in general.

I find such disingenuousness to be particularly offensive when I look at the large list of guests that lurk on this site. If even one of those guests is a young person who's seriously trying to understand their own life and how to view it within the context of reality, then your distortions have the power to really screw him/her up. My youngest bother suffered under such delusion. Not the delusion that his life and reality were actually so wonderfully malleable, but that they should've been if he'd only tried hard enough to accomplish whatever transcendence he'd simply failed to achieve. I have his dogeared copy of "A Course In Miracles" on my desk here, and it's heartbreaking to see his notes in the margins. He blamed himself for not being "enough" to be able to have the experience of freedom to create his own reality - one that was sympathetic to him, at the very least - as page after page preached to him about how natural and normal it was to have God walk a person through all tribulations and to experience such tranformation.

It taught him that all his failures were the result of his own weakness and fear and hatred, and that all he'd ever have to do was have true faith, and his whole life would transform. Well, he had faith. He had more faith than anyone I ever knew. But, the circumstances of his life had nothing to do with faith or the lack there of, and they certainly had nothing to do with his ability to believe and project that belief. The issue was that reality is what it is, and if you can't, or if you refuse to, surf it as the wave that it is, then you're open season for whatever there is that comes surfing by.

My brother died a month ago. I worry about him and what he's following off to who knows where right now. I wish I could shut down all the ways that good and vulnerable people are destroyed in this and the next world. I can't, but I can point out the obvious stuff when I see it.

reply to post by NorEaster


Sad to hear about your brother.

I try to imagine being a dog. I'd be aware, but not aware of what I am. A human is aware of what he/she is, but not aware of what we are. If there is a being out there that is more advanced in its beingness than us, I would expect that it is because he/she has obtained some level of group awareness. This would mean that awareness is not bound as an individual perception. Of course, I have NO proof of this other than my observation that evolution progresses along a line of awareness expansions.

If there is a such thing as heaven on earth, it is when you go with the flow and have love in your heart. Even if love is a chemical reaction in your brain. It still is the difference between an enjoyable life and a miserable one. My ideal life would be to be so much at peace with the world that you open yourself up to the experience of compassion in such a way as to feel what others feel. And then, by some alteration in DNA be able to obtain a group awareness. That is my ideal existence, and would be heaven on Earth.

I just want to go from saying I and me to us and we. And then I want to identify myself with that.

Is.

We are here in this forum and in life to learn from each other.
That is my unshakeable belief, my position in the realm of reality is not important but my conviction in being true to my self is also unshakeable.
I was so surprised to find in this forum after one year, that many people where awaken.
So called people that have reach a certain degree of awareness are now no more experiencing the truth, they are the truth....but still very active in the forum which generate more self centred people then any other hollywood platform.
What kind of talk is this...I will not comment.
Then you have many people that have figured out every thing in this reality and have a guide books for sale to the sinner....yes, you don't have to be Christian now to be a sinner...you can be a sinner of not been real or been too dualistic...
I have a fulfilled life behind me and hopefully in front of me, from what I have become I can differ from illusion and narcissism . Both are treacherous to your being, the worse is when they don't know...
The danger for any one that lift his mental guard is as real as being killed in a war.
I could list many books that are so detrimental for people that this thread will be close soon than later.
Please do not be sure of being certain, and your experience or you awakening is just that ...yours...nobody else...so please do not pollute other with something that is abstract to reality.
Now if people think I have insulted them...so s'est la vie!

To clarify: We are not trying to interfere with any human perspective of 'reality'. If the world you perceive is acceptable and your reality is acceptable - fine and good. But this post was begun to answer a philosophical question[s]. And the reason [besides knowledge for its owm sake] is to postulate theorems and concepts that will lead to the knowledge of a new perspective of the currently known universe. We are obsessed with being able to transcend space in the known and/or unknown universe. We can not be limited by the currently seen Einstein universe where the speed of light limitation as to speed makes us feel like bugs in the cosmos. We are more than that and we want perspectives of reality that will allow this universe to open to us. I borrow an old occultic term 'The New Dawn' and ask for a 'New Dawn Science' which will not be limited to the this unprovable reality we are traped in.
-We want to inherit the stars!

Originally posted by AlienView
To clarify: We are not trying to interfere with any human perspective of 'reality'. If the world you perceive is acceptable and your reality is acceptable - fine and good. But this post was begun to answer a philosophical question[s]. And the reason [besides knowledge for its owm sake] is to postulate theorems and concepts that will lead to the knowledge of a new perspective of the currently known universe. We are obsessed with being able to transcend space in the known and/or unknown universe. We can not be limited by the currently seen Einstein universe where the speed of light limitation as to speed makes us feel like bugs in the cosmos. We are more than that and we want perspectives of reality that will allow this universe to open to us. I borrow an old occultic term 'The New Dawn' and ask for a 'New Dawn Science' which will not be limited to the this unprovable reality we are traped in.
-We want to inherit the stars!

If you want to inherit the stars, then you need to understand the stars. Everything that exists beyond your imagination is based on a shared physical structure. This is proven by the fact that it's all fully capable of physical interaction. The kind of physical interaction that would not be possible if there was anything at all inconsistent in physical structure.

You're trying to somehow master a breaking wave, and that's just not really possible if you're part of that wave. What you need to master is an understanding of the true nature of what you are as a corporeal human being. If you can't master that understanding, then you'll never be able to "surf" the momentum of corporeal existence in a way that will transform the experience of being a corporeal being.

The problem with dismissing the obvious "real" that confines you is that you fail to take advantage of it. It generally ends up being a case of trying to limit your actual exposure to that "real" - as happens with monks and others who purposely confine themselves to a tightly managed construct that conforms to their very specific version of acceptable existence. In essence, they hide away from the aspects of reality that they disagree with, and that's not mastering anything other than the freedom of each other. Nothing changes except the behavior and the range of activities of those who find themselves in agreement. For thousands of years, this has been the way it's always gone, and the problem has always been a refusal to accept what's actually real.

Reality is not something that any human can impose upon the whole of existence. Humans are special enough due to their capacity to imagine the impossible. Nothing else is capable of that. Imposing the impossible isn't feasible. Redefining the impossible isn't feasible. Humans exist within the confines of reality. It'll always be that way.

There has never been an object that has been experienced.
Only subject is.

Nothing has ever been seen without the seer.

What about "The sky viewed from earth is blue."
You can prove it by measuring reflected light.

Seems like about any measureable statement involving an adjective could also be subjective in a sense, to me.

reply to post by NorEaster

Reality is not something that any human can impose upon the whole of existence. Humans are special enough due to their capacity to imagine the impossible. Nothing else is capable of that. Imposing the impossible isn't feasible. Redefining the impossible isn't feasible. Humans exist within the confines of reality. It'll always be that way.

We are not at complete odds and accept your analysis and definitions within context. The problem though is you are imposing parameters, on reality which are neither provable or acceptable. You lucidly define what you believe reality is but the fact that you nor anyone else can prove that you are encompassing 'all reality' because you in fact do not know what all reality [or even a meaningful part] is is significant. We are not trying to impose the impossible on known reality, we are trying to expand it [reality]. We believe the fact that reality can never be defined in absolute terms is not a negative quality - it is positive; It allows for the continuous expansion of human knowledge. After many centuries it was finally realized that the earth revolved around the sun and not the sun around the earth. Are you sure that a more advanced science of the future will not see the cosmos differently and will realize the sun does in fact revolve aroung the earth after all?
Again we are not trying to disturb your or anyone else s personal reality, religious view points, or lack thereof.
But what we are trying to do is open your mind to the possibility of a much more encompassing reality than you are now capable of understanding. A reality not limited by the currently known parameters

reply to post by AlienView


Well information and/or Platonic forms is both objective and subjective. So if one bases one's ontology on information -which some philosophic arguments exist for- one would essentially have that.