Pre-tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, or Post-tribulation rapture?

Originally posted by daikaiju

Originally posted by HolyandClean
reply to post by daikaiju

 

Good question. According to the Bible, they are the Israelites!

Can you please direct me to where in the bible it says that.

Deuteronomy 28. The curses point to who the true Jews are.

reply to post by daikaiju


Deuteronomy 28:15-68

King James Version (KJV)

15But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

16Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.

17Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.

18Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

19Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

20The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

21The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.

22The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.

23And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

24The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

25The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.

26And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.

27The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.

28The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:

29And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.

30Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.

31Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them.

32Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long; and there shall be no might in thine hand.

33The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway:

34So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.

35The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.

36The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.

37And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.

38Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it.

39Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.

40Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit.

41Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity.

42All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.

43The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.

44He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

45Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:

46And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

47Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;

48Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

49The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

50A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

51And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.

52And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

53And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

54So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:

55So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.

56The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,

57And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.

58If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;

59Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.

60Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.

61Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

62And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.

63And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

64And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

65And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:

66And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:

67In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.

68And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.

The true Israelites are under the curses right now. They didn't follow what God was telling them to do. Right now they are in captivity.

According to Deuteronomy 28, the true Israelites would never win their battles. They would always lose. According to Deuteronomy 28, the true Israelites would never prosper, nor gain lots of riches. According to this, they would be taken into slavery INTO SHIPS! Who are the only people on this planet to be taken into captivity in SHIPS! Who are the only ones to begot sons and daughters and have them go into captivity? Read the curses.. they only point to one particular people. Those people in the middle east always win their battles. They are the richest nation in the world. They have NEVER went into slavery! Nothing in Deuteronony 28 has happened to them. The holocaust is the only thing they can say that happened to them.

If you need more proof, just ask.. I have more scriptures that prove the true Jews have not been gathered yet.

You know what, we are going completely off topic. Message me if you want to talk more..

Gonna take me a bit to watch the video, will get back with ya when I am done.

reply to post by HolyandClean


I'd say 'Post', but I would go further and say that 'The Rapture' is not a thing!
Reformed view

Preterism
Preterism

Catholic view
The Rapture

and another
Second Catholic article
Vicky

The Rapture isn't even biblical. It was an invention in the 19th century by a pastor called John Darby. You can piece it together with scripture from 1 Thessalonians, Matthew and the two in the field and one being left behind, and Daniel ch. 9 to make it sound biblical. He also placed the 7 year tribulation with Jesus' second coming. After that 7 year period will be Jesus' "second" second coming. It's just cherry picking the Bible to fit a popularized idea from the 19th century; nothing more, nothing less. Too bad people buy into this because it sounds biblical, even though it isn't.

Originally posted by novastrike81
The Rapture isn't even biblical. It was an invention in the 19th century by a pastor called John Darby. You can piece it together with scripture from 1 Thessalonians, Matthew and the two in the field and one being left behind, and Daniel ch. 9 to make it sound biblical. He also placed the 7 year tribulation with Jesus' second coming. After that 7 year period will be Jesus' "second" second coming. It's just cherry picking the Bible to fit a popularized idea from the 19th century; nothing more, nothing less. Too bad people buy into this because it sounds biblical, even though it isn't.

edit on 16-6-2011 by novastrike81 because: (no reason given)

Yes, you're right!
That's so good Novastrike...
Vicky

Originally posted by jeramie
The rapture will not happen like millions preach. It will be very different. The great Tribulation has already happened, from 538 A.D., to 1798 A.D. (go to this link to read about the tribulation: www.remnantofgod.org... )


If you have the time, go to the following link to learn the truth about the rapture. www.remnantofgod.org...

Sorry Jeramie, I followed your link, and it's just nuts.
For one thing, how can the (evil, how cliche!) Catholic church have 'invented' the Rapture when they don't even believe in it?
As Novastrike says on p2 of this thread, the Rapture doctrine was invented by John Nelson Darby, of the Open (Plymouth) Brethren. I ought to know - I spent my first few years as a Christian in the Brethren. I still love the people, but this doctrine is not a good one!
Vicky

Originally posted by novastrike81
The Rapture isn't even biblical. It was an invention in the 19th century by a pastor called John Darby. You can piece it together with scripture from 1 Thessalonians, Matthew and the two in the field and one being left behind, and Daniel ch. 9 to make it sound biblical. He also placed the 7 year tribulation with Jesus' second coming. After that 7 year period will be Jesus' "second" second coming. It's just cherry picking the Bible to fit a popularized idea from the 19th century; nothing more, nothing less. Too bad people buy into this because it sounds biblical, even though it isn't.

edit on 16-6-2011 by novastrike81 because: (no reason given)

Amen brother. There is not 5 scriptures that justify a rapture. Jesus never talked about it, Paul never talked about. The word rapture cannot even be found in the Bible. It was completely made up! Jesus said HIS ELECT will be on this planet during the great tribulations.

reply to post by HolyandClean

Amen brother. There is not 5 scriptures that justify a rapture.

I respectfully disagree. Not only are there more than 5, it was the "mystery" Paul revealed in his first epistle.

Jesus never talked about it,

He sort of did, when He said He would return as gather us and where He is we shall be as well. That would imly that some would still be alive on Earth when He returned.

Paul never talked about.

Paul first revealed it in his first letter of Thessalonians, "catching away", "gathered together unto Him" were all Paul quotes. Paul even says he is revealing a "mystery". Mystery in the Greek is slightly different than our English context. In the Greek it means revealing something that until that time had been hidden. Much like a password or safe combination.

The word rapture cannot even be found in the Bible.

Would you prefer we call the rapture the "Great Catching Away"? Or the "Catch Up"? The Greek word used is "Harpazo" and the latin word used where we get Rapture from is "Raptiro". The Bible went from Greek to Latin to English. "Rapture" is simple an English theological word to describe the "Harpazo"/Catching away/Great gathering together Paul wrote of.

It was completely made up!

Not true at all. There is even sermons from first century Apostolic Fathers and Ante-Nicean fathers speaking not only of this gathering together when Christ returns, but of it being pre-tribulational. That's one of the biggest myths in Christiandom.

Jesus said HIS ELECT will be on this planet during the great tribulations.

Anyone fore-ordained to be adopted as a son of God in eternity past is called "elect" in the Bible. Jews, gentiles, OT saints, NT saints, tribulation saints, and millineal reign saints are all referred to as "elect". Solomon was elect, Isaiah was elect, Issac was elect, John the Baptist was elect, the apostles were elect, Paul was elect, you and I are elect, and a child who will be born from the Tuesday after next who was fore-ordained to be called is also an "elect".

Originally posted by novastrike81
The Rapture isn't even biblical. It was an invention in the 19th century by a pastor called John Darby. You can piece it together with scripture from 1 Thessalonians, Matthew and the two in the field and one being left behind, and Daniel ch. 9 to make it sound biblical. He also placed the 7 year tribulation with Jesus' second coming. After that 7 year period will be Jesus' "second" second coming. It's just cherry picking the Bible to fit a popularized idea from the 19th century; nothing more, nothing less. Too bad people buy into this because it sounds biblical, even though it isn't.

Come on, a simple Google search will show you that is another myth. The teaching was re-popularized in the 19th century, but it existed in the first and 2nd century church. The thing that "hid" this teaching was Augustine's insistence on allegorizing everything prophetic from the NT. It was extremely unpopular as a state sponsored priest in the Roman Empire to be in the pulpit preaching how Jesus would return and destroy all the evil governments of the world when you were paid and supported by said "evil" government.

So everything was allegorized for centuries, the Reformation did wonderful things in the area of Soteriology, but the reformers didn't addresses the errors of Roman Catholic Eschatology.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


If it's not a myth then why does the Church and most Christian denominations reject the idea of a Rapture? Plus, Jesus is going to come and "rapture" everyone and then come back again to finish the job. Doesn't make a lot of sense which is why most Christians reject it.

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

If it's not a myth then why does the Church and most Christian denominations reject the idea of a Rapture? Plus, Jesus is going to come and "rapture" everyone and then come back again to finish the job. Doesn't make a lot of sense which is why most Christians reject it.

Acts 20:29-30 says that "after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them." So we can't appeal to popularity (a fallacy anyway) nor to only how close in time a writer was to the 1st century when looking for what the Bible teaches. I see the pre-trib Rapture taught in the NT very clearly and will elaborate if you'd like.

And don't anybody get me started on the old "Darby/Schofield/Margaret MacDonald did it" nonsense.

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

If it's not a myth then why does the Church and most Christian denominations reject the idea of a Rapture? Plus, Jesus is going to come and "rapture" everyone and then come back again to finish the job. Doesn't make a lot of sense which is why most Christians reject it.

Because 90% of your churches are daughters of the RCC. They are denominational churches out of the reformation. There are many people in them who love Jesus so I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The reformers did a fantastic job of salvaging that the just shall live by faith, of Soteriology. (Salvation by faith alone). Butthey simply accepted the RCC position on Eschatology. Which is mostly Augustine's fault for allegorizing so heavily. The RCC position is "Amillinialist", and likewise so is 90% of your denominational churches. They don't belive in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ, on Earth, from David's throne in Jerusalem.

Look into Dr. Chuck Misslers teachings on therapture, he is one of today's greatest theologians and Biblical scholars there is. Sorry I cannot link it now, I am at work typing to you on my cell. I will when I return home tonight.

God bless you.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

They don't belive in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ, on Earth, from David's throne in Jerusalem.

Traditional denominations would not teach that because it is not traditional.
This teaching was invented when the Elders of Zion decided to make a new "Israel for the Jews" in Palestine, back in the 1880's.

reply to post by HolyandClean

Originally posted by HolyandClean
reply to post by daikaiju

 

The rapture doctrine totally makes people let down their defenses, which is VERY BAD. Most people are going to give up their faith when they realize that their is not going to be a rapture, and when they are about to get beheaded..

You people say you won't take the mark now, but that's because nobody isn't torturing you right now. They torture you long enough, you might just give in.

edit on 16-6-2011 by HolyandClean because: Correction

This sounds a lot like you have to do works to be saved to me....So now grace through faith is not good enough? Now we must "endure until the end" in order to be saved? You sure you know what your talking about?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You do realize you have a graven image as your avatar, right, which means you are breaking one of the first commandments God gave Moses. Typical Christian hypocrite. Show me where Jesus said he was coming back to rapture his church? Show me. Go ahead. Show me where Jesus said himself, he was secretly coming back to rapture his church. Show me where he said that in Matthew 24:1-28. Because Jesus said himself, EVERYTHING IN MATTHEW 24:4-28 has to happen before he can come back. That includes the great tribulations.

According to history, Christianity was founded in 34 AD. The rapture was "created" in 1802. lol.

reply to post by KJV1611


That is what the scriptures say, endure unto the end, and you shall be saved.

James 2:14-24

King James Version (KJV)

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

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