[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/dd155c004506.jpg[/atsimg]Hello and welcome again to my way of thinking
Let me begin by saying I too enjoy reading about ancient Astronauts or possible lost civilizations lending a hand in the Great pyramids construction
this thread however will not address those nor will we be discussing time-lines....
Ever since I could read I've always been fascinated with Ancient history and Ancient monument builders. I would spend hours at our local Library
reading books on the ancient Egyptians, Mayans, Aztecs etc. Luckily the books available contained many high quality photos. In those photos they would
occasionally show some physical artifacts that would hardly be mentioned [if at all] only leaving me more curious as to their purpose. I'll try to
address those possibilities in this thread. The Great pyramid is said to be an enigma wrapped in a mystery surrounded by myths. Accepted Egyptology
states it took roughly twenty years of back breaking labor to build it. I as do many here question not the why or even the when but the how...
Khufu (in Greek known as Cheops; pronounced "key-ops") was a Pharaoh of Ancient Egypt's Old Kingdom. He reigned from around 2589 BC to 2566 BC. Khufu
was the second pharaoh of the Fourth Dynasty. He is generally accepted as being the builder of the Great Pyramid of Giza, the only one of the Seven
Wonders of the Ancient World still standing.
The above image and brief description is of the the Pharaoh who has caused us so much grief. Unlike many other Egyptian monuments his creation has no
real internal hieroglyphics to speak of. Come with me as we explore some the lesser known aspects and mysteries surrounding the Great Pyramid...
The Egyptians were very pragmatic and everything in the Great pyramid had a purpose IMHO. Whether we in the 21st century can figure them out is a
whole other story. Imagine trying to assemble a complex puzzle while missing all the primer pieces? Well this is the exact situation we find ourselves
confronted with. So what do we make of some of the less obvious or discussed aspects of the remaining physical evidence they left behind? I'm a firm
believer in the saying that Form follows Function
We will explore some of those less talked about evidence/remnants. Hopefully this will spur further discussion and or debates. No, I'm not claiming to
have all the answers just posting what I've read and found from too many hours of reading and trying to get up to speed on this topic. I know for a
fact that there are many members with a much better understanding and command of the topic than do I, so I wont bore them with too many already known
I watched a great video on the topic which was linked in a thread I read here at ATS. Which became the driving force behind writing this thread. In it
French architect, Jean-Pierre Houdin describes his theories about how the Great pyramid of Egypt
was built. With cooperation with DASSAULT SYSTEMES they were able to create a possible solution on how it was
accomplished I'll be posting their solution a little later in the thread...
The first thing we need to do away with is the myth that Egyptians couldn't
have done it themselves or that they didn't have rope. I laughed the first time I read that somewhere in a more speculative forum. They showed us how
they did things. Not only were they capable of building such awesome creations they excelled at them. Many of their creations are still here to this
day. Admittedly all have seen better days. These are the people who built two of the seven wonders of the ancient world.
The Great pyramid and the Alexandria lighthouse. Which is no longer with us. They used simple tools combined with basic math skills. Seems reasonable
to me. Have we found examples of their basic mathematical skills? I may have found an interesting correlation between their known mathematical
writing and a possible practical applications. I'll delve into that possibility a bit later.
The Rhind papyrus contains geometry problems that compute the slopes of pyramids and the volume of various-shaped granaries. And the Moscow
papyrus, from about 1850 B.C., has about 25 problems, including ways to measure ships’ parts and find the surface area of a hemisphere and the area
of triangles. Especially interesting are problems that calculate how efficient a laborer was by how many logs he carried or how many sandals he
could make and decorate. Or the problems that involve a pefsu, a unit measuring the strength or weakness of beer or bread based on how much grain is
used to make it.
No Aliens here ma!
Just good old fashion backbreaking blood, sweat and tears.
The Egyptians left us some hieroglyphics showing how they moved large objects. With simple manpower and ropes while using some sort of lubrication. It
wouldn't be that hard to imagine them using this basic technique on the smaller pyramid stones.
Knowing that many of our members are unable to view or simply refuse to watch You-tube videos I'll post a mostly visual presentation of the possible
techniques described in the various videos presented throughout this thread coupled with questions I've had all these years.
So before we begin lets run down some of the competing building scenarios...
Long external ramp
The argument against such a system is the size and length of the ramp. Some have speculated that the Ramp itself would require as much or more
material in it's construction that would be needed to build the Great pyramid. The length of said ramp in order to maintain a gradual enough slope to
make hauling stones practical would have dictated a great distance which in modern times and even in ancient times just was impractical with regards
to the supposed academically accepted time-line of construction...
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fa4c342f9b9a.gif[/atsimg]Here again we are back to the nasty fact that this scenario would also
still require a great deal of material to build the ramp itself. I've often wondered if the Egyptians ever used the opposite reverse down-slope of the
pyramid as a counter weight in hauling up the stones? Seems like using gravity would be something they would have considered. Why not?
The supposed problem with the external winding ramp theory is lack of line of sight to align the four corners in order to maintain a strict and
accurate angle. They may have made that mistake once before and that system could have been a contributing factor with the
Another possibility is the Zig-Zag ramp system. The problem here is the turning of he stone to make he sharp turn heading in the opposite direct. Also
as demonstrated in Jean-Pierre's video the edge would be very narrow and almost impossible to create a large enough footing on which to maneuver the
This next theory is rather interesting. I liked this gentleman's approach. I can't speak for the accuracy in it's applications. He presents such a
well thought out analyzes I thought it worthy of sharing with you. I'll just post a few videos and screen shots of it's possible pyramid construction
Djed possible uses
Pyramid construction theory Part-1
The Djed symbol is a pillar-like ancient Egyptian symbol representing stability. It has been interpreted as the backbone of the Egyptian god
Osiris, especially in the form Banebdjedet (the ba of the lord of the Djedet). Djedu is the Egyptian name for Busiris, a centre of the cult of Osiris.
During the Renewal Festival, the djed would be ceremonially raised as a phallic symbol symbolising the "potency and duration of the pharaoh's
rule". It has been compared to the Sumerian concept of temen. The hieroglyph for "djed" may have given rise to the letter Samekh.
Exterior Djed rope rigging in use...
Djed possible uses
Pyramid construction theory Part-2
He seems to have found some practical use for these artifacts. I have yet to read any other non ceremonial explanation for their use or function. Even
if his theoretical system is wrong what other practical purpose would they have? They look very much like some sort of stone age/megalithic tool.
Great for a pivot ball joint?
Djed possible uses
Pyramid construction theory Part-3
I don't know.. I see where he is going with this supposed rigging system. But I ask myself if it's plausible or even practical? I have no doubt they
used some sort of rope/pulley/block and tackle etc system but which type? Are there any remnants or remaining physical evidence? Maybe, there is some
rather tantalizing clues in the Grand Gallery, Stay tuned...
So in conclusion, it's an interesting theory. Does it demonstrate and hold to [Form following Function]? Outside of a few odd remnants it
doesn't really address the mysteries of the internal structure of the Great pyramid, The Grand Gallery, The Antechamber or The Queens chamber. It does
however bring into the fold the possibility of rope-rigging and or the use of pulleys. We'll be viewing that a bit later. I'll next be presenting
another theory. This one is very exciting and has been posted here at ATS a few times. [Much to Byrd's and others frustration]
Timewatch: Pyramid - The Last Secret (Part 1 of 5)
Presented by Bob
Brier, a popular egyptologist from Long Island University, this documentary from the BBC's long-running "Timewatch" series presents a radical new
theory proposed by a French architect, Jean-Pierre Houdin. According to Houdin, the blocks were raised via an internal ramp. This ramp is still inside
the pyramid waiting to be discovered. If correct, Houdin's discovery will be the most significant in Archaeology since Tutankhamun.
The basic premise of his theory is that there were several ramps used. 1. A long ramp to build the first 1/3 of the pyramid. 2. Then an ascending
interior ramp system winding its way towards the top as the pyramid grew in height and finally. 3. The internal "Grand Gallery mechanism. Which
provides us with a possible function for it's long postulated use.
In these two transparent 3-D representation you can see how this system may have worked. There would have been a long winding interior passage built
as the pyramid grew coupled with open corners to turn the stones with some sort of rope rigged winching system...
The internal ramp would have a ceiling consisting of a corbel vault similar to the Grand Gallery. Which if true means there are still undiscovered
locations within the Pyramid. Could you imagine if in fact this system pans out and they found this sealed passage? I'd love to walk it's length and
look for artifacts that have been sealed off all these centuries.
Once the laborers reached the open corners they would use a system of pulleys to lift and reposition the stone in a new direction to continue it's
journey upwards towards it final resting place within the Pyramids matrix. There seems to be some tantalizing circumstantial evidence for this
The following few animations could simply be the result of my overly active imagination. It seems to me that no matter which angle you view the Great
pyramid from there seems to be slight indications that there may have been some sort of winding ramp used. Whether it was either an internal or
external one only time will tell...
Grand Gallery mechanism...?
The Grand Gallery itself is an architectural marvel. Even as a child I could see from the photos in those old books that there was another function to
it's design and wasn't just a corridor for the tomb. If you'll notice the center ascending path has no steps or even a practical way to climb up not
to mention the evenly placed niches on either side. There is disagreement as to the function of the low ramps which skirt the sides of the gallery.
Twenty-seven square openings in the ramp corresponding to twenty-seven niches in the side walls.
At the top of the Gallery there was a very well worn stone. "The Great Step"
Below is a recent image. The stone in question has been repaired and that once well worn stone is now all but forgotten. Now, I'm not saying there
isn't a legitimate reason for the repair but If you hadn't seen a photo of the original condition one would not have known how badly is was worn. The
stone indicates that it was heavily used and NOT the result of Tomb raiders etc. In fact the entire interior of the Great pyramid shows massive
amounts of Wear and tear from some sort of repeated activity.
Also notice in both the above and below images the small passage leading through the Antechamber to the Kings chamber there is what appears to be yet
again another repair job. These repairs have covered up some very important clues for the use of the Grand Gallery and the Antechamber.
The "Groove" in the Great Step has been conjectured to be a purposely planed and used guide for some sort of rope pulley system. Exactly how this may
have worked is still a mystery. I'll post the image below to give you a visual perspective.
Again we will turn to French architect, Jean-Pierre Houdin and DASSAULT SYSTEMES for a cut away view of the interior. In his video representation of
his theory he has demonstrated one possible use for the Grand Gallery. To me it makes a lot of sense,
However if you look closely it really doesn't show how the Antechamber was possibly used. As a matter of fact the video animation completely bypasses
the Antechamber and shows rope rigging going up through the still open roof of the Grand Gallery.
After having viewed his theory. [Yes, it's still just a theory] There hasn't been enough physical evidence found to declare it fact YET.
I had many more questions. It eludes to the antechamber as being a part of some sort of winching mechanism but doesn't really describe how that
functioned. It talks about the Grand Gallery as part of a massive counter weight to haul the gigantic stones for the Kings chamber. This seems
possible. Let's now discuss the possible use of "Pulleys"
Basic engineering and physics demonstrates that the more intricate the rigging the more you can do with less and makes any lifting or hauling tasks
that much easier. Explained further here...
I'm going to stop here and discuss briefly "Egyptian Mathematics" The following is a simplified view of their mathematical table. Is this a simple
example of Form following Function?
This seems to resemble a pulley system physics break down. I could imagine some Egyptian engineer checking over the lift requirements and pulley
layout using a similar calculation table...[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9cb2e1815d7b.jpg[/atsimg]
Next, I'll post first some images of the Antechamber and present my observations. Please feel free to reply and add your opinions and comments. Again
I don't claim to have all the answers. If anything the more I've read and viewed the more questions I found myself pondering. Let's continue
The argument surrounding it's function really begins with it's other given name and or function as a
A portcullis (from the French "porte coulissante" or gliding door) is a latticed
grille or gate made of wood, metal or a combination of the two. Portcullises fortified the entrances to many medieval castles, acting as a last line
of defence during time of attack or siege. Each portcullis was mounted in vertical grooves in castle walls and could be raised or lowered quickly by
means of chains or ropes attached to an internal winch.
Yadda Yadda Blah Blah Blah....
Ok, I have no doubt that being a Portcullis was it's final function. I like to think of the Antechamber as the Great Pyramid's multipurpose
Swiss Army Knife. I'll try to keep the following as simple as possible. If you're like me the orientation can get a bit confusing sometimes. Below is
a basic representation of the Antechamber. [atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6d68b071d287.gif[/atsimg]
The Grand Gallery on the Right and the Kings chamber on the left. Notice how there are what appear to be some sort of horizontal pole supports facing
you? They could have been used for a pulley system. Also in the following images I'll show some more of what appears to be "Wear and Tear" and again
NOT tomb raider caused damage...
Looking straight up from within the Antechamber with the Kings Chamber on the left and the Grand Gallery on the right. Notice the grooved
notches..[possibly rope guides] on the left above the passage leading to the Kings
Below we see what appears to be yet another repair job. I can imagine the bottom wear from the rubbing of ropes back and forth as the Antechamber was
in use during the construction. Also notice that the "Guides" on either side are broken off? I doubt some "Tomb Raider" would take the time to chisel
away at them for no other purpose than just simple vandalism. It looks like a very well worn stone age purpose built mechanism showing massive amounts
Old sketching showing the amount of possible
wear before the modern repair work was done...
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fd4dfa38ac7a.gif[/atsimg]This is a
curious anomaly if it's truly Wear and Tear and not vandalism. Because it is showing wear and tear heading into the Kings chamber. Did the Kings
Chamber have another use before the Pharaoh was put to rest? We may never know because the Kings chamber could have had finishing touches done to it
Let's continue with our visual tour. Next we are facing towards the Grand Gallery. Notice the second stone block above the facing entrance? The second
image below is a close up and shows what could also be wear from some sort of rope system. You may have a different opinion and or theory to why it is
in the shape it is. I'd love to hear it.
Below we have a closer look at what appears to be guides for massive blocks used in the Antechamber. What were their purpose? Why are some broken
away? If they were vandalized wouldn't they show jagged edges instead of smooth edges?
Next I'm posting some more visual representations so you can get a better feel for it's possible uses. I'm wondering if it could have been used also
as some sort of breaking system in conjunction with Jean-Pierre Houdin's Grand Gallery theory or something similar?
Ok so let's Head down towards the bottom of the Grand Gallery. Here we will find some other less discussed remnant anomalies. The first images shows
both the ascending Grand Gallery above and the descending passage blocked by a steel gate heading towards the lower Queens Chamber. If you look
closely you'll notice several niches on either side.
Below are some renderings showing their relative size and locations in reference to the ascending and descending passages. What were their purpose or
use? Could they have been a lower part of a much larger mechanism? If so how were they utilized?
Keeping with the Idea that Form follows Function what possible use could they have had? Remember that the Egyptians most likely were very focused on
what was critical and wouldn't have lent themselves to non purposeful additions. It has been conjectured that they once held torches to light the
entrance. Well why so many and why so unevenly spaced and sized? If the Antechamber was a breaking or pulley system and the Grand Gallery was used for
some sort of counter weight lifting mechanism we may be seeing the signs of anchoring and or remains of a lower gig mount for some sort of counter
weight sled return system?
Queens chamber mechanism?
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/24100f1c782e.jpg[/atsimg] In the Queens chamber we find a corbelled arched niche. You'll notice
in the above two renderings that there has been some exploration of the niche [possibly looking for Treasure] and by doing so they could have
destroyed valuable evidence about how the Pyramid was constructed or how the Chamber could have been used.
Now supposedly this chamber really wasn't for a Queen. Some have postulated that the Niche once had a stature of Khufu/Cheops. The Chambers other
possible use was the "Treasure room/Possession Chamber" for the Pharaohs after life. But what if it as well had another purpose during the
construction? We have explored this Dual purpose scenario in other locations inside the Pyramid so why not here as well?
Is it possible that the Queens chambers story has yet to be figured out? One could imagine it being a crucial part of construction. Again the
Egyptians were very pragmatic and everything in the Great pyramid had a purpose. I thought this was a rather interesting prospect. Did the Chamber
house a large wheeled device that used the Niche as a bracing mount for a counter weight sled return mechanism?
Pure speculation on my part. No evidence of any such wheel exists. Another problem with this theory is that it would require a much more complex
pulley rope rigging system up top in the Antechamber. We just don't see any physical evidence for this type of rigging.
Little known Relics found inside the Great
The shafts in the Queen’s Chamber were first discovered in 1872 by a British engineer named Waynman Dixon. The ancient Egyptians had blocked them
with stones, making it appear that the walls of the chamber were completely solid. Dixon, however, decided to probe all the joints in the masonry of
the Queen’s Chamber with a wire to see if anything might be hidden behind them. When he discovered a hollow in the southern wall, he chiseled
through to reveal the shaft. He realized that there was probably a corresponding shaft in the northern wall, and was indeed able to locate one. In the
southern shaft, Dixon and his associate James Grant found a small, bronze hook.
The northern shaft yielded a granite ball and a piece of cedar-like wood. These objects became known as the Dixon Relics. Both sets of artifacts lay
in the rubble at the bottom of the sloping shafts. A report on the discovery of the relics was published in the journal “Nature” on December 26,
1872, including a drawing of the items. In 1993 a search led to the discovery of the ball and hook in the British Museum, where they remain today. The
piece of cedar-like wood was missing until 2001, when it was traced to the Marischal Museum in Aberdeen, Scotland.
So where is the small piece of wood? This and the next items seem to be missing. I'd love to see the C-14 dating on the wood and would also love to
have a modern lab take a good hard look at the next item as well. This brings us to the supposed "Air Shafts" I highly doubt that's what their main or
original purpose was for or the other purpose as channels for the pharaohs soul. Being plugged seems like a lousy way to provide "Air or a smooth
passage for a soul"
There could be another purpose for them. I'll go with a simple communication system. As the pyramid rose higher and wider [If in fact the Grand
Gallery was a mechanism] there needed to be a simple and easy way to communicate with to and fro the outer or upper levels of construction. The ball
was found inside one of the air-shafts. How about this for dual purpose. They would roll down the stone balls signaling the need for some yet unknown
action from the Grand Galley mechanism? Just a thought...
Great Pyramid Iron plate
In 1837, Colonel Howard Vyse, with the assistance of two civil engineers (John Perring and James Mash), investigated the air shafts in the King's
Chamber of the Great Pyramid described by George Sandys more than 200 years earlier. A man in Vyse's team, J.R. Hill, was put in charge of clearing
the mouth of the southern shaft. Vyse's methods were not subtle, and the use of explosives was employed resulting in the vertical gash that can still
be seen on the south side of the pyramid.
On Friday, 26 May 1837, after a few days of blasting and clearing, Hill discovered a flat iron plate about 26 cm (10.2") long, 8.6 cm (3.4") wide,
with a thickness ranging from .4 cm (.2") to nearly zero. The plate weighs about 750g. Vyse proclaimed it to be "the oldest piece of wrought iron
known." Hill affirmed that his find was legitimate:
In conclusion I'll leave you with these few remaining images of the other Large pyramid at Giza Khafre's pyramid. I'm excited about the possibility of
a still yet to be discovered hidden ramp winding it's way up through the Great pyramid. If this is true then what do we say about a possible similar
system used in Khafre's pyramid construction as well? It seems plausible because Khafre's Pyramid followed his fathers Khufu relatively soon after.
Can you see any hint of a possibly hidden ramp system in Khafre's pyramid?
I'm looking forward to your replies. Please state your opinions both pro or con. Hopefully we may even get a spirited debate or discussion going. I'd
love to hear about other theories and any new information. This is how I learn. Thanks for taking the time to read.
As always my friends
have a good day
edit on 19-3-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)
this is cool nice thread. still i believe imo such a monument would almost be impossible... there are chambers that ive read which are impossible to
build block by block.. the largest pyramid i think it was.
Great work on creating the thread, I learned tons of things i can tell to my geography teacher that will really get her mad. But i think that
the Egyptians were just incredibly smart, and then eventually the whole civilization just got...well dumber, or the aliens came and made it.
I was rearranging my bedroom the other week with my girlfriend, and we had a massive heavy cupboard to move from one end of the room to the other. So
we used an old 'Egyptian' trick my Dad taught me when I was a kid.
Got a load of plastic poles from a shelving unit and a plank of wood. Made a slope onto the first pole then slid the wardrobe up the ramp. Then we
tilted it placing more poles underneath. When we pushed it along, we took the poles from the back and placed them in front allowing the wardrobe to
roll along on top.
If we managed that in 20 minutes I have no doubt these highly skilled and intelligent folks could build the monuments they did!
there is a rather in depth series (5 one hour episodes) of videos called the "Pyramid Codes". hulu and youtube have them. i'm sure they've been
discussed here. there are many interesting ideas, some of them fringe (but none so fringe as an alien cameo).
one of the main ideas was that most of our current knowledge on the pyramids is false and actually insults the capabilities of the cultures who built
them. they suggest the pyramids are are much older than we think, and the notion that the "bent pyramid" was a mistake is foolish, and that the
pyramids where possibly generators of some sort (hence their placement atop a limestone aquifer).
anyhow, excellent stuff Slayer. provocative and thorough. you are on a roll.
I found this article very interesting, especially since I know real people even today do this kind of work for a living. they are called Mappila
Khalsis ( Khalasi is a arab world, Mappila is a malayalam word for Muslim/Arab origin). Their work is amazing, a few people can lift heavy items
even a modern machinery can't lift. Amazing work.
"What do you do when the best of hydraulic cranes fail to lift a wreck? Call the Mappila Khalasis, ofcourse! Where state-of-the-art machines fail,
the 37 men Khalasi teams of Kozhikode in northern Kerala"
Omg Slayer, I got to get some coffee, but this is perfect timing. I will consume all of the cream this thread has to offer.
Snf- You maniac.
edit on 19-3-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)
The Egyptians were very pragmatic and everything in the Great pyramid had a purpose IMHO.
Whether we in the 21st century can figure them out is a whole other story. Imagine trying to assemble
a complex puzzle while missing all the primer pieces? Well this is the exact situation we find ourselves
confronted with. So what do we make of some of the less obvious or discussed aspects of the remaining
physical evidence they left behind? I'm a firm believer in the saying that Form follows Function
I would need to ask you about the complexity,
of this puzzle and the principle, of form follows function,
in relation to the fact most mainsteam academics claim
ancient man didn,t even have a wheel. Yet, how far back
does the chariot go? I'm positive it goes back, well before
edit on 19-3-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)
This is for me the best explanation as of yet. The pulley system I mean.
The South American people were also geniuses when it came on rope use and there is no reason to assume the Egyptians weren't capable of an equal or
even better use...
As always I enjoyed reading your thread..but to me theres way to many thoughts and ideas with no real explanations. First, imagine how long it would
take to just get the materials in place to attempt any of those ideas. Second, The cutting moving and placement is just to extreme a task in my
opinion to be completed in the timeframe provided by those methods. There is way to many unexplained mysterys that Zahi Awass an TPTB will not
disclose. I don't doubt that it was built by man I just doubt the timeframes provided for its construction an the purpose for thier construction and
also when it was started/finished. As a 12yr specialty construction worker I have seen amazing things in building but absolutely nothing explains
thier ability to do it so quickly and efficiently. It's just my opinion but I don't think it was Lost Knowledge I think it is Kept Knowledge for
whatever reason. If I had to place money on it I would say there was some sort of Guidance from Someone or Something we are currently unaware of that
coordinated it all. I would love to find out whats at the bottom of the ocean on the exact opposite side of the earth from the pyramids because they
are too geographically placed not to have a counterpart but thats just a thought. Thanks for the good reading an I look forward to more threads Slayer
oh yeah and i read the part about not discussing timelines and all that but that has to be discussed or else we are only discussing/answering a small
fraction of the conundrum
edit on 19-3-2011 by ArieZ because: (no reason given)
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