Jared Loughner the alleged Tucson shooter - So many questions - so few answers .

You can acces the partial autopsy reports here:
www.kold.com...#

Summary:

-Judge Roll
bullet traveled back to front (1x)

-Gabriel Zimmerman
shot in head,, bullet traveled upward... back to front
--1 graze wound to butt (2x)

-Dorwin Stoddard
shot in head and groin
--head wound, bullet traveled front to back
--groin wound, bullet traveled upward, traveled back to front (2x)

-Christina Greene
shot once through chest, bullet entered on the right side of the body, "back to front and upward" (1x)

-Dorothy Morris
two shots to chest, the bullets traveled upwards... front to back (2x)

-Phyllis Schneck
Slug entered and exited right shoulder and entered skull. "The direction this bullet traveled is upward.... front to back" (1x)


There are 9 wounds described.

4 of the bullet tracks go 'back to front' according to the reports.

4 of the bullet tracks go 'front to back' according to the reports.

This suggests the victims were facing in different directions when the shots rang out, or it might suggest gunshots from two different directions. Remember also the initial reports says that wounded victim Rep. Gifford was shot 'back to front' before they settled on 'front to back.'


6 of the bullet tracks describe the slug as 'traveling upward,' according to the reports.

Which suggests these victims were shot from a point lower than the wound entry point. If they were shot from a roof top, the bullet tracks would trend 'downward.' Was the second shooter shooting from a storm drain or underneath a car??


They have acknowledged 24 different gunshot wounds in the 13 wounded victims. Add that to 9 wounds in the dead and you get 33 different gunshot wounds. Plus add 2 more for 'misses'--rounds recovered in the Safeway store and you have 35 rounds fired from a max 32 round gun (1 in the chamber and 31 in the mag, as per the official story).

I would like to see them explain that.

reply to post by starviego


Nice job man .
I too want to know how they explain it lol ..

Peace

Great research!!! Another explanation is that the story is a complete fiction and these anomolies are left as clues to assist us in proving that the whole thing is a hoax.

Originally posted by gwynned
Great research!!! Another explanation is that the story is a complete fiction and these anomolies are left as clues to assist us in proving that the whole thing is a hoax.

You are probably right my friend but theres not too many of us questioning this case at the moment but my thanks goes to all that do including you .

Peace

Originally posted by Doomzilla

Originally posted by gwynned
Great research!!! Another explanation is that the story is a complete fiction and these anomolies are left as clues to assist us in proving that the whole thing is a hoax.

You are probably right my friend but theres not too many of us questioning this case at the moment but my thanks goes to all that do including you .

Peace

Back at you. Love your avatar.

Originally posted by starviego
Which suggests these victims were shot from a point lower than the wound entry point. If they were shot from a roof top, the bullet tracks would trend 'downward.' Was the second shooter shooting from a storm drain or underneath a car??

If someone were prone on the ground, a shot from the direction of their feet would leave a down to up wound. A crowd running in panic could easily knock people down, as could a first bullet wound, and a prone person in front of the shooter is an easy target. Just a possibility, but it initially makes more sense to me than inventing a second shooter.

They have acknowledged 24 different gunshot wounds in the 13 wounded victims. Add that to 9 wounds in the dead and you get 33 different gunshot wounds. Plus add 2 more for 'misses'--rounds recovered in the Safeway store and you have 35 rounds fired from a max 32 round gun (1 in the chamber and 31 in the mag, as per the official story).

I would like to see them explain that.

A few through-and-through bullets could cause more than one wound, especially in a crowd. Again, just a possibility, but again, a more likely scenario than a hypothetical second shooter.

This is how conspiracy theories get started. Someone looks at the facts and, skipping right past a simple conclusion, starts making things up to fit their conspiratorial outlook.

I've seen nothing in this thread that makes me think anything happened other than a deranged individual going on a shooting spree. Tragic? Yes. A conspiracy? No, I don't think so.

reply to post by subject x


What about the rifle they found at the scene ?

So you think he had a grudge for 4 years before he acted on it ?

You think this grudge stemmed from a response Giffords gave to his question that made him so mad that he decided to kill her 4 years later ?

You know for a fact that Loughner knew she 'd be there ?

you dont think it odd that she subscribed to "Loughners youtube " ?

Originally posted by Doomzilla
What about the rifle they found at the scene ?

Was a rifle found? I've seen it mentioned here, but I have seen no official report or press release confirming it.
Had the rifle been recently fired? If not, it has no bearing.

So you think he had a grudge for 4 years before he acted on it ?

You think this grudge stemmed from a response Giffords gave to his question that made him so mad that he decided to kill her 4 years later ?

You know for a fact that Loughner knew she 'd be there ?

I couldn't even begin to speculate about what goes on in a deranged person's head. Nor does it matter.
Deranged people need no understandable motivation because they're, well, deranged.

you dont think it odd that she subscribed to "Loughners youtube " ?

Yeah, that's pretty odd. So? It has no bearing that I can see in relation to any of the MKULTRA/second shooter speculation going on. Maybe someone should ask her about it if they think it matters.

reply to post by subject x



Link for rifle .
www.elliscountyobserver.com...


I believe it is revelant to question his so called motives, your assuming he is insane without any actual medical opinion.

I expect you haven't heard individuals say that the Gifford and Loughners family went to the same synagogue .

reply to post by starviego


But does the reports say that all the bullets were glock 9 mm gunshots? That is what I really want to know from the autopsy reports. Good find with the number of bullets, I can't imagine him firing off that many before getting tackled, and since he was tackled by someone with a gun, it is amazing someone else didn't try to open fire. I keep referring back to the Florida school board shooting, that disgruntled man couldn't hit one person before he was taken down, and Loughner made four shots to the head, 3 fatally and 1 to Giffords who survived.

for Doomzilla: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just so we can have a comprehensive thread of all the information, better save back up copies as well. As I'm still on vaca this is hard for me to do right now but I have a file at home.

reply to post by filosophia


From - www.youwb.com...

"Prosecutors asked Burns Monday night to order Loughner to be moved to a medical prison from Phoenix’s medium-security Federal Correctional Institution to undergo extensive examination before standing trial."


“The defendant’s online postings are indicative of an individual who may have mental issues,” prosecutors said."

Showing they are using his "internet postings " as an indicator of character .

"Loughner’s lawyers acknowledged Loughner may have “mental impairments,” but said they were “in the very preliminary stages of their investigation to determine the nature, severity and consequences” of those impairments “and their relevance to legal claims,”



Today hes due in court again , what time is it in Arizona right now ?

UPDATE _


Today Loughner pleaded not guilty again . He spoke only once to confirm his name . They mention him smiling again .

" Loughner, who has been held in federal custody since his Jan. 8 arrest, wore khaki prison clothes and sported a new hairdo of "short black hair and side burns," according to the AP."

Black hair is not what the courtroom artist drew on that ocassion previously




"TUCSON, Ariz. - A judge overseeing the case against the suspect in the Tucson shooting rampage has approved the release of some records of a police search of the suspect's home."

He wont release all of them though .




"Burns said Wednesday he has concerns about whether Loughner understands the proceedings
.Loughner's attorneys asked the judge to wait 30 to 60 days before holding a hearing on whether Loughner is competent to stand trial. The judge agreed, setting the hearing for May 25."

www.lasvegassun.com...

Originally posted by Doomzilla

And I honestly think your post should be deleted . There is NEVER a mod around when their needed .
They are quick to delete my and my friends post though !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To Get Smart .

I watched the men who killed Kennedy on saturday . The french convict had a letter not to be opened till he was free . I'm assuming it has evidence to convict the assasins .

Regarding Loughner , have you discovered anything that makes you think Loughner wasn't framed ?

Hi Doomzilla,


This is a place where folks let off steam, some with a good sense of humor and some with less... As long as it isn't the dominant chatter in a thread it comes with the territory of a wide audience. That didn't seem like a concerted effort at debunking but it is unnerving when you're alarmed at your nation's principles of law and justice being subverted and appalled that journalistic deontology is routinely ignored.


Christian David, the French hit-man who was member of the Guerini Mob in Marseilles who was in detention is reportedly released, and now living at an undisclosed location somewhere in France. I had heard that he had written a letter to his lawyer which nobody had read but allegedly contained dynamite revelations in the JFK assassination. True or false, who knows. The CIA and the Mob are only too familiar with such measures to protect one's life when you fear your own assassination, and they have ways to get around it.


They can get to your lawyer by multiple channels, they can whack your relatives one by one until you prefer to be taken out peacefully to end it all, they can do likewise with anyone helping you protect yourself from them, and this is without using torture to get the documents. So it isn't likely that we'll ever be reading that letter. It could have been simply to protect his life while in prison, and maybe it was to be kept until he was free (and potentially less at risk of a Mob hit in a mafia controlled prison environment) and then to be destroyed upon his release.


What I find interesting today is that there is a distinct French Connection still today and that "companies" from Marseilles were those supplying the shuttle boats to and from the Gulf of Mexico Oil Platforms. We learned that this was (is?) the main Sea Channel for drug running from Latin America: the shuttle boats supply the platforms with food and consumables and leave supposedly empty and are therefore not controlled by customs or the Coast Guard. It is alleged that they however return to port laden with supplies left at the platforms in international waters by boats from Latin America. We' aren't far from Godfather Bush's Zapata Oil operations.


Also it could be that there is a French Connection with the Mexican Drug Cartels? After all this year was supposed to be the year of "France-Mexico" with countless international events, museums, concerts, travelling exhibits, collaborations, etc. Yet somehow this all went "DOWN THE TUBES" over a diplomatic incident. The pretext is the detention of a young French woman who lived with the leader of the Mexican kidnapping gang, the Zodiacos. She got 20 years for complicity in Mexico for helping detain the prisoners, and get their ransoms. She even threatened to kill a kidnapped woman if her gang leader boyfriend Israel Vallarta Cisneros kept raping the woman, she threatened to deprive him of her ransom by killing her out of jealousy. We do know that she prevented a young boy from getting his ear cut off by soaking the ear from a child's corpse in the boys' blood. Maybe she used the threat against the abused woman in order to get him to stop the rapes out of concern for the victim, we cannot know for sure.


If she was sticking it out while trying as she may to reduce the hardship on the victims, then she may have been a French Intelligence Agent attempting to penetrate the Mexican Criminal Organizations. For what purpose? Your guess is as good as any. The French government is proclaiming her innocence despite a clear court case with alarming victim testimony. Is a French implication with respect to the ongoing wars among the drug cartels in Mexico? Does this extend beyond Mexico's border into Arizona? Probably not, but it is understandable that one would speculate especially with the parallels between the JFK assassination and the Giffords shooting.


GS

The rifle was found on the Safeway rooftop by a Sheriff's deputy named Rick which was reported only once by one news source. Somehow, that inconvenient information - which turns the lone gunman theory into a conspiracy to assassinate charge - has since been 'disappeared'.


When gunshots abound and people start to scream and panic people either run away or dive to the ground to take cover. Rifle shots from the roof could produce entry wounds from the bottom up if those who dove did so in the opposite direction from the shots, the most likely direction to dive towards. This means that unless you can confirm exactly what the victim's posture was prior to being shot you cannot establish from where they were shot accurately. Given that we have NO information on anybody's whereabouts, to the point some even dismiss the shooting from ever having actually happened, there's no way to examine what occurred. This is additionally if we consider the autopsy report to be truthful, accurate and complete, without concealing or falsifying pertinent evidence. Given what happened to JFK's body after his murder we can legitimately question the likelihood of that.


GS

reply to post by Getsmart


Hi there Getsmart . your right about JFK' s autopsy , surely they are not the same person . In regards to the letter that Christophe has , I too thought it had information regarding the assassination of JFK .
Whats your take on the E Howard Hunt confession .

What do you think about the start of the Loughner case being delayed till 2013 ?

UPDATE ______________

This deals with the search of Loughner 's house ______
LINK
www.abc15.com...

"According to the warrant, authorities seized computer data, videos, photos and rolls of film, among dozens of other items.
They also found an extensive collection of writing, including a four-page essay entitled “False Reality,” journals, poetry and notes apparently planning Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords’ assassination."

"Among Loughner’s papers and notebooks, investigators found drawings of weapons, according to the warrant.
But some of his notes are still a mystery, redacted in the 60-page court document.Investigators also found a Pima Community College complaint form, along with an approximately “11-page essay.”


" FALSE REALITY" Hmm how ironic my friends !!!
AS you see they have photos videos and film of him will we ever get to see it actually exsists ?



"The warrant says Loughner was caught by Marana police, after spray painting “extremist symbols” on a wall."


Um he allegedly wrote X , X for Christian WOW how "extreme " Lock him up !!! Plus from what I heard it was a roadsign not a wall .



"Investigators also list two shotguns and more than 20 rounds of ammunition found in the garage."


OK BUT whose were they ? Jareds or his dad ?
Theyll blame it on Jared I imagine , which means he would have 3 guns and ammo If they do will they tell us where he bought them from ? Or do we just take their word for it ? ?



"According to the warrant, investigators immediately believed Loughner planned the crime because he was wearing earplugs during the shooting "

OK can we see the footage of him talking "calmly to a clerk " while wearing earplugs please , or do we take their word for it ?



In summary I find it hard to believe that with all this alleged evidence he had at his parents house that they saw no sign that maybe he had serious problems. Like I said , whose shotguns were they ?

If I had a 22 year old son who got kicked out of college and had Pima county college offices come to my house to tell me my son may gave issues , I would keep my eyes on him
,
I would be suspicious of him having a safe/lockbox , I certainly wouldn't have 2 shotguns in the garage assuming their NOT Jareds, PLUS I would have taken him to a shrink before this point .


With all this alleged evidence its even stranger that hes pleaded not guilty TWICE .

I dont know many people who use films to take photos anymore , but Jared does apparently , EVEN though hes supposed to be tech savvy , even though most of his alleged pictures look like they were taken on digital cameras .

If theres a photo of him in a g string then I'm Castro ,
They will not show it and if they do I bet its photoshopped .



Keep researching guys ..



Peace .

Originally posted by Doomzilla
I believe it is revelant to question his so called motives, your assuming he is insane without any actual medical opinion.

Which I think is a much more reasonable assumption than anything I see being assumed here, like MKULTRA or second shooters. As far as I'm concerned, a person would have to be insane to do what he did.

Originally posted by Getsmart
The rifle was found on the Safeway rooftop by a Sheriff's deputy named Rick which was reported only once by one news source. Somehow, that inconvenient information - which turns the lone gunman theory into a conspiracy to assassinate charge - has since been 'disappeared'.

Maybe it was "disappeared" because it never happened. Maybe "Rick" was making things up to get in the paper. Maybe the reporter was making it up to "scoop" the competition.

Of course, to be fair, maybe I'm wrong and there was some kind of conspiracy. I seriously doubt it, though.

reply to post by subject x


Well Richard Kastigar is actually the Pima County Sheriff’s office chief investigator .

He is the only one who has commented on the " surveillance video of the shooting " , so I guess theres no video either right ?
Fine with me , its in keeping with my theories on this case .

Until they medically evaluate him your assuming hes insane and your assuming hes guilty NOONE on this board knows 100 % that he did it .

They havent even released proof that he was actually was at the location of the shooting let alone guilty .


"Minutes earlier, a surveillance photo also shows Mr. Loughner inside the Safeway talking to a clerk and “pointing to his ears because he’s telling the individual that he can’t hear what she’s saying because he’s got earplugs in,” Mr. Kastigar said."

Why havent they shown this photo then ?
It would prove A he was at location and B that he wore earplugs .

All it is a photo why dont they release it he hadnt commited any crime yet .

Is it because he was never there ?

Judge Orders Psychological Testing of Smiling Jared Loughner

blogs.wsj.com...

“I have concerns given the defendant’s affect,” said Burns

And what, pray tell, was the defendant’s “affect” all about? Well, according to various news reports, Loughner smiled for much of the nearly two-hour proceedings

Granted, the smile is bizarre, for someone who has just received over 90 counts of federal charges against him, and for someone whose defense lawyer is asking for the "speedy" trial to be postponed until 2013, there is not much to smile about, but now the judge wants to give him a psychological test just because he smiled? Hello, isn't murdering 6 people more worthy of a psychological test than a stupid smile?

And I really wish they would decide if Loughner has long hair or short, glasses or not. I guess by 2013 he'll have a long flowing mane and maybe contacts by that point.

What is more plausible

1. Loughner is proud of his murdering spree, which is why he is smiling, even though he is pleading not guilty in trial twice

2. Loughner is proud of his murdering spree, and even more proud of messing with the minds of the judge and jury by pleading not guilty to a crime he is proud of committing. You gotta stay humorous somehow, what better way than to just **** with the system.

3. Loughner is not Loughner but a double and the double keeps "smiling" because that is the only distinguishable trademark from our elusive lone gunner. They can't even get the hair right so might as well just paste a smile on the double's face so people will say "yep, that's the weirdo alright."

If it is option 3, then the plan is as follows: the double of loughner is going to continue to "smile" in order to make it seem like he is mentally insane, thereby evading the death penalty and probably getting life in a psych ward. This will allow some chance for the double to either escape or if he is a MKULTRA (or if Loughner is just this mind controlled) he'll stay in a padded room and smile to himself.

@Doomzilla: you mentioned wanting to see him talking to the safeway clerk, that would be nice to see, he also supposedly broke a 20, used that to pay his cab fare, then went on a shooting spree, meaning he still has some change left over in his pocket. If he knew he would be spending a while in jail, why wouldn't he just give the taxi driver a 20? Maybe he wanted change to buy cigarettes or glasses in jail. ha.

Originally posted by filosophia

Judge Orders Psychological Testing of Smiling Jared Loughner

blogs.wsj.com...

“I have concerns given the defendant’s affect,” said Burns

And what, pray tell, was the defendant’s “affect” all about? Well, according to various news reports, Loughner smiled for much of the nearly two-hour proceedings

Granted, the smile is bizarre, for someone who has just received over 90 counts of federal charges against him, and for someone whose defense lawyer is asking for the "speedy" trial to be postponed until 2013, there is not much to smile about, but now the judge wants to give him a psychological test just because he smiled? Hello, isn't murdering 6 people more worthy of a psychological test than a stupid smile?

And I really wish they would decide if Loughner has long hair or short, glasses or not. I guess by 2013 he'll have a long flowing mane and maybe contacts by that point.

If its actually Loughner they are probably drugging him before each court appearance to give him that authentic physcho look , what do you reckon ?

Its funny how other sources say he has black hair yet the picture you show has red/ginger tones .
Does he wear glasses or not ?


BS THIS CASE IS BS DOING MY HEAD IN .