Does Truth = Peace?

reply to post by MRuss


In what situation would violence be her only defense? Why is she still married to someone who has been mentally abusing her for decades?

The truth is that most people don't care about the betterment of society, they will get what they can, and screw everybody else, and typically the best way of doing this is through dishonesty, and the intentional distortion of the truth.

This is the true nature of a large portion of humanity, so we are left with no choice but to establish laws and courts to punish or remove those individuals who have shown that they are not able to abide by the moors of civilized society, from society.

Sadly the old statement, that "crime does not pay" is completely false, especially in these times.

When the public loses trust in governments ability to maintain civil order and trust, then that civilization begins to break down, which is what we are currently going through at this time.

reply to post by poet1b


IMO the mindset you describe in your first paragraph in the majority of the problem with todays society. Instead of looking at ones self and fixing/maintaining it, people today tend to look outward for answers and/or guidance. The reason your first paragraph is true is because people accept it as truth, which in my opinion is a tacit way of condoning it...by saying its going to happen anyway.

By saying "other people are greedy and only look out for themselves", it seems to me you are trying to compensate for past/future greedy moments of your own.

reply to post by DancingBear


I am not speaking from experience here, but you'd have to be naive to believe that there aren't an infinite number of people who have been mentally abused---even in modern day society! Slaves come to mind. Abused children and women! There are examples everywhere! And yes, I am sure there are women (and men perhaps) who have been mentally abused by a spouse for many, many years--even a lifetime. Having to support that assertation isn't productive--it's obvious.

But let me tell you a story.

When I was in 6th grade, I had been taunted and teased by another student for several years. And I mean relentlessly. I had taken this bully's abuse over and over again--sometimes on a daily basis. It was a difficult time in my life. I didn't want to go to school. I had horrible self-esteem. Most abusers don't know--or care--about what sort of damage they're inflicting on someone's life.

And finally one day, at the bus circle (remember those?) I had had enough. Not a violent person by nature, but after two years of this, and without much thinking about it, I hauled off and punched him in the nose. I'm a girl. Girl's don't do those kinds of things, but it came from some instinctual place deep inside.

His mother called my mother, of course, because his nose started bleeding. But the point is----I responded in a violent way to his non-violent abuse. Was it the right thing to do? No, perhaps not--at least by the standards put forth in the OP's theory. But the teasing stopped, and I was eventually able to get on with my life.

I don't think I've ever hit someone again....

But did the end justify the means?

In a perfect world, maybe not.

But this isn't a perfect world.

reply to post by MRuss


I simply asked in what situation would violence be her ONLY defense...I definably never said there was no such thing as mental abuse? And yes my older brother had a similar experience with a bully who had been bothering him for quite some time and one day threw our street hockey ball down the street and then taunted my brother...who was twice his size. That situation ended in violence and the bullying stopped, but I still don't feel it was the ONLY way to solve the problem.

I happen to have been in many situations where someone is either trying to engage me in a fight or people are already fighting and I have always found peacefully resolving the situation to be much more beneficial to all parties involved.

Good thread, you are only 1 step away from knowing who we are.

To know what one is ,one must know what it is not, this is consciousness evolving en creating ad infinitum.
We are really the creator and the created, night and day, black and white, dream and sleep is all an illusion.

In ones sleep you get images and reflections of your consious life and without practice you can`t stir the dream because you are not aware of what you really are and are capable. If you were then you would be capable of creating the dream how you wished.It is the same with this life, we are trying to remember who we are but we are looking the wrong way, it is not externally it is internally.
All is merely reflection of a greater truth, a shadow so to speak waiting to be realised and when it does it must be broken down and only purest truth/self will go back where it came from untill it is part of a new creation where the journey to remembering starts again. Like the zodiac-aries the baby and pisces the old one, ones journey divided in dark and light, the 7 cycles to awareness like the mayans and egyptians knew, is happening on every level of existence anywhere simultaniously and we are a part of it.

Its like a cell in a hand that goes through the 7 cycles and know knows it is the hand, he must realise that he is merely part of something bigger, that is the arm, now the 7 cycles begin again, the first part sleeping and the second half realsing that the arm is part of something bigger that is the torso and so forth, untill it realises it is the whole body and we are born as a baby in complete new world.This is the cycle of the awareness evolution that we call life.

We must realise that our world works the same way, like in ones dreams there are clues given by our higher selves to remember who we really are. We are as a whole are becoming aware that we are part of a creation much bigger and that we are merely 1 civilization of merely countless other civillizations on different levels.
So basically we thought we were a body only to realise we are merely one cell in something even greater, which in its part is also part of something greater.This is life and death, black and white, in and out.

2012 will be the beginning of something new, like a baby being born again it will go through the same 7 levels of self awareness again. And like for a soul reincarnated and coming out of the womb it is pretty traumatic.
This is what we can see happening know in society, all negative emotions that comes with excepting ones death, every reality is merely a distorted reflection of a bigger one. Like a tv screen the images is merely a reflection of the light coming from the projector, and it is fractered light, the underside of the pyramid and the top of the pyramid is the projector.
To become the pyramid we must become it,stone by stone, step by step untill we are the top, the all seeing eye, we can know look at what we have become and feel powerfull because we think we are god.
This is something that has to be discarded from ones self and the only way to do this is making it aware that is merely the small fraction on the bottom of an even bigger pyramid. This is basically what karma is, letting you create yourself and tearing you down and using only the usefull parts of you that are strong (awareness wise) enough to be used as the foundation of the building of the next bigger one.

This is why all the major power structures in the world have kept a lid on all facts that reminds us from where we come from, This is why they have been covering up, at the moment they are the all seeing eye and they know their end is coming.

This Reality is just god dreaming and like in our dreams his consious self is giving him clues to realise he is dreaming (7 stages) and finally wakes up, We are waking up that we have been dreaming too and realise every moment in our life is precious, We are god and god is us we are just in the process of realising and realisation.


And whether 2012 is our physical death or a new beginning with the body you have now, there is really no difference basically,we choose our own reality relative to our awareness on higher levels.
People have near death experiences are basically going through the same thing we are going through now.
They go through a dark tunnel (7 stages) and finally see the light, and loved ones are there to help them only in the beginning they don`t know who they are so they don`t recognize that they are part of the light that is coming more and more visible. same as in life people who are miserable are in the learning process of awareness that they are something much bigger,and one must realise what one is not ro realize what it is and it will change ones life.We are in the last stage of becoming aware that we are part of something much bigger that has our best interest at hart, the universe is unfolding itself to us.

Some people who have been bringing the truth out to wake the masses are basically dreaming this life but are consious in the fifth dimension (lower level 5th dimension kids who have ties with the top of the pyramid souls on this earth, not to be mistaken with the ones in power who are the top of the pyramid in this reality,they are on the lower level of the pyramid on a spiritual level -this is how karma works) and are helping with the transition just like loved ones are doing when a relative dies, there is really no difference, reality and dreaming are 2 sides of the same coin on every level of existence.
Everything works out eventually but we are not aware of it untill we complete the 7 cycles of awareness.

Free yourself from negative emotions and thoughts because what you create echoes in eternity.

The flaw with this debate is believing that there must be only one truth and logical course of action.

My truth and your truth are not necessarily the same. I've seen mostly opinion argued in the various examples and counter points given in this thread. There are certain things we can conclude as truth, for example, if I drop a brick on my bare toe it will hurt and possibly break. This is truth. Judging someones course of action as being based in truth and logic cannot always be done.

The original premise that initiation of violence is always illogical is opinion, not truth. Throwing a blanket statement like that over every possible situation is illogical.

Man is a biological entity. Every action requires a certain expenditure of energy. Some non-violent methods to bring about a certain outcome can expend a much greater amount of time and energy than a violent one. From a purely biological standpoint, one would want to expend the least amount of energy as possible to bring about a desired result.

When one is speaking of logic, morals have no place.

Let's see....
Go work for someone for 40, 50, 60 ... hours a week.
Give the gov't 1/3rd or more of your earned pay a week.
Go buy goods and pay taxes again.
Pay your bills and pay taxes and finance charges.
Use what you have left (if any) for a little savings or entertainment.
Do it again next week.
Spend that time working instead of with your family and living life.
Become a slave to the system.
Die.

or

Spend a few hours a week engaging in criminal activity. (stealing, mugging, conning, etc...)
Make as much or more than the guy working 40 or more hours a week.
Do NOT pay 1/3rd or more to the gov't.
Have more money to buy good and pay your bills. The taxes and service charges pose a lesser impact.
Have more of your money to put away for savings or for entertainment.
Have more of your time to do with what you will.

Though maybe not morally right, the second choice is the logical course for many. The risks involved with such activity may seem worth it compared to the alternative of a lifetime of slavery to the artificial system set up by man.

My logical course of action may seem illogical to you if you do not know my complete situation, or my 'truth'.

reply to post by mnemeth1


In order for the OP's statement to take affect, humans would have to reach a point of mutual development where every individual human could follow the logic of accepting their own demise(in cases of resource shortages) even for people they did not know or could care the least about.

Suppose country A was slipping beneath the sea and begged country B to take them in, but country B just couldn't do it(overpopulation, lack of resources already, borderline mass starvation), country A would have to accept their own demise.

reply to post by korathin


I would accept my own demise. Death is going to happen to me and you and everybody reading this. The truth of the matter is that the universe is hostile. Our entire planet could be destroyed at any time by something we've never even discovered yet. That is a truth. Any of us could die at any second and if you don't accept that then you're living a lie. Why is death bad? We're a part of this universe just like the sun and the moon and when we die the atoms of our body go back to being an inanimate part of everything. Fear is irrational because a person can always function more clearly when their mind is calm and collected.

reply to post by DancingBear


So what do you do when you try to reason with someone who is unreasonable?

There are certainly thugs in the world who know no other language than violence. Sure, you can pull up a chair and try to talk things out, but that is naive.

There was no talking to my bully. Reason isn't something he could understand. You see, if he was capable of any sort of reasoning, he wouldn't be a bully in the first place.

reply to post by MRuss


Everybody is capable of not being a bully. It is so easy that it requires doing NOTHING. You don't have to speak, or even move for that matter. That is how easy it is to not be a bully. Once our basic necessities for survival are met, violence is a learned process. Just like most learned things violence can be unlearned and replaced with something else.

reply to post by MRuss


Reasoning with someone who is unreasonable doesn't sound possible, but compromising is. When you understand human behavior on the deepest level you know that all people are people regardless of current circumstances. Even thugs or somali pirates have friends or something close. Its all about how you approach the situation.

That isn't to say violence is always avoidable. I just feel its better to make every effort to avoid violence. Let me tell you a story.

I had just got done playing hockey and one of my best friends was having a party at his house that night which then went to. When I arrived i first noticed several people outside smoking cigarettes who told me that my friend was drunk and being "crazy". Being tired from hockey I put the situation off and mingled for a bit. Eventually I was standing by a pool table chatting and what not and I could hear my friend saying "who wants to get hit" and things like that. (hes a large italian 22 year old who works out everyday) Once again i was tired and sore from hockey and let him continue to be rambunctious for a little while longer. Finally he saw me and for some reason started poking me and lightly punching my ribs talking about "we're going to fight". After about 10 minutes of trying to ignore it, and 1 hard rib punch later, he got a reaction out of me and i tackled him and held him on the ground. We ended up wrestling for something like an hour while i tried to talk him down, and when i let him up, he grabbed the front collar area of my polo shirt and ripped it down, and then pushed forward and punched me in the mouth...at this point i snapped and hit him in the face about 8 times in 5 seconds, knocking him backwards onto a small table, and to avoid further trouble, i gathered my jacket and made a quick getaway. After reaching my car and getting loads of high fives and thank yous from people...i felt absolutely horrible for reacting like i did and ended up calling him later that night and talking for like 2 straight hours.

He is one of my best friends to this day.

reply to post by Dystopiaphiliac


Well, by your reasoning then, our prisons should be empty.

If it's so easy to rehabilitate violent people---who have never known anything else, know no other way of responding---then by your measure, by your edict, we should be able to simply "change them."

If you honestly believe what you're saying, then I urge you to become a sociologist. Trying to rehabilitate violent prisoners and offenders has been a very hard task for our society. Depsite the use of intervention programs and the like, we haven't been able to turn back the tide once someone (whether by genetics or learned behavior or both) becomes a violent criminal. Sociopaths are notoriously hard to treat---even after years of therapy.

By the way---my bully went to an Ivy League school. He works for a very famous news corporation and has become a pretty powerful person.

I guess he bullies in important offices now...

which is good news for 6th grade girls everywhere.

Originally posted by notsoperfect
Jesus died because he caused resentment among the authorities of the time. The contemporary authorities of Jesus’ time were regarded as representing the truth by the people. But they were threatened because Jesus revealed that those were false authorities with evil inside. Before Jesus, no one could discern those authorities were hypocrites. The truth is like that.

You have to have someone who can tell you what is the truth who is not necessarily one of the contemporary authorities.

Ok my friend, the truth is that each and every person is an aspect of the divine creator. What you do to anyone you do to the divine creator. Christ is within you, the father is within you, love all as you would love them and yourself.

Truth.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by Dystopiaphiliac
reply to post by daskakik

 

Everything that happens does so because of what has happened before. Were you raised to believe that you're better than someone because of skin color or because they are richer/poorer than you? (That's a question to all of humanity). We've evolved out of the need for violence. You might pull the trigger against someone who is about to fire upon you, but why are they choosing to end your life? Why should they believe that killing you is a positive thing? Why did our ancestors kill each other? Killing another person for any reason only perpetuates violence which has spread across humanity through out known history. Only love can conquer hate but love has to be taught, just in the same way hate is taught. When confronted with our basic necessities it is in our genetics to survive regardless of the cost. A human can't willingly drown themselves if escape is possible. A human can always choose whether or not to end a life.

Well said my friend. Perfect!

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by DancingBear
It seems to me that people are either intentionally missing the OP's point or are truly lost. I think that every individual is responsible for their own behavior and thus the thoughts that influence that behavior. Violence does not bring about good in any forseeable conjecture. I read someones post about protecting your mother from being attacked and thus bringing violence upon the person attacking your mother, what i don't think that poster is understanding, and what I think the OP would agree with me on, is if you follow my self-responsibility principle there would be no attacker in the first place.

Instead of trying to imagine scenarios in which you could advocate violence and thus prove the OP wrong, how about some actual thought on the subject?

Thought on the subject is what I was hoping to obtain. In my scenario on page 2, you are family A. What would you do?

With Love,

Your Brother

Truth is the illusion that we can know the unknowable. In a sense, peace is the illusion that we know what occurs to us after we die. In that sense they are connected. Peace is a kind of truth, in other words, however truth is really just the other side of illusion.

reply to post by IAMIAM


I don't know what i would do because I'm not sure of all of the boundaries of this "world" you've set up. Meaning are there other animals? i would probably kill an animal before a human in a survival situation. Then again if I am Family A i feel like I would be able to convince one of the other families to give me aid also.

Basically I can't say what i would do with any certainty because I have not and am not currently in that situation or one similar to it.

Originally posted by mnemeth1
reply to post by daskakik

 

It's not an idea, it is what reality is.

Choosing not to believe reality does not change what reality actually is.

I've noticed the term "Reality" being used quite a bit in this topic.

Firstly, one must -assume- that "reality" is -shared- for any of your claims to be held "truthful".
Secondly, just like an electron cloud "reality" is not stagnant and still. It is what a mathematician would label "infinite".

To draw a conclusion from evidence and propose it is "infinitely true" and define "reality" from those conclusions is just one PERSPECTIVE of the infinite possibilities of said "reality".

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Violence never feels good, I'll agree...

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Yes, if a person sees that an accident is about to cause harm to another, they are legitimately entitled to use force to prevent that accident from occurring if possible.

They are not entitled to initiate violence though for any reason.

By this circular logic its "okay" to initiate violence or "force" with the attached sentiment that you are preventing an accident... And if you do "prevent" the accident and it never happens, then how can one logically assume that the "force" taken wasn't initiated out of nothing?

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One more thing to think about:

What defines "Who's is who's?" when it comes to property? Hasn't all property (land) essentially been taken in a violent manner during one point in history or another. To define "Who's is who's?" is subject to the violence of our history and the wars that defined the borders of our countries, states, counties, cities, provinces, etc etc.

reply to post by DancingBear


Einstein has a saying that fits the situation perfectly. Reality is an illusion, albeit, a very persistent one.

You either learn to accept reality for what it is, or you choose to live in an illusion.

A sizable number of people do very bad things in ignorance of the consequences, many of them fully intending to never take any sort of consequence for their actions.

In spite of this reality, the vast majority of us in civilized nations choose to live by a higher law abiding standard. The main reason for this is that we recognize the superior advantages of living a moral life, which is to live in an environment of communal trust. I have a book I have written on this, which I plan on self publishing soon, or at least I keep saying that, except I keep finding places where I can improve it.

No, I am not trying to compensate for anything. I am simply not letting my ideals get in the way of my perception of reality. The second most important thing in making anything happen in this world is the strength of your perception of reality.