In the 21st century, why does Freemasonry still discriminate against women ?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Women aren't recognised as equal by the constitution of the United States of America so it is not really a matter of discrimination, it is their right to exclude women under the constitution due to their servitude under the law. So there you go.

How does the constitution not recognize women as equals?

Since when were women equal to men? Let me know the next time you menstruate or give birth.


Name me some female inventors off the top of your head WITHOUT looking it up HA BET YOU CAN'T.

Name some accomplishments females have contributed to mankind.

Dont let me go on a tirade PLEASE.

There is a reason why women are not allowed in freemasonry!

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Order of the Eastern Star is what is known as a "concordant body", and it is in NO WAY clandestine. I think what you're referring to is what's call Co-Masonry, in which both men and women are able to join. These Lodges are not recognized by The Free and Accepted Masons of any nation. Masons are allowed into any concordant body, including Eastern Star.

One point that I'd like to make here though... There are Sororities out there too. You know that, right? Men cannot join sororities, just like women cannot join fraternities.

Let me end by asking you a question. Why would you be interested in joining the Freemasons anyway? Just to see what goes on behind the closed doors? I only ask because I'm genuinely curious.

TheBorg

Men need places to socialize away from women, just as women need places to socialize away from men. In theory the masons could let in women, but it would not be the same.

Imagine if a bunch of men were allowed to join your grandma's knitting circle. They would probably bring beer and hot wings, watch sports, and break your grandma's best china. If women were allowed to join the masons or any other all male group, they would alter the group dynamic.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Some Masons, in defence against wild accusations against their society, will often state that they are a group whose intent is charitable and worthy; the furtherance of a man's spirit, if you will. Yet, this is completely contradictory, as they willingly disenfranchise 50% of the population, solely upon an ''accident of birth''.

I asked the same question on my thread, that if freemasonry is a charitable organization than why it does not actively participate in charitable activities, it is a worldwide organization, it is here in India and i don't know of any charitable act done by them here or in any other developing countries in which they are present. But the few masons here on ATS have no idea about that. They only know of few hospitals ran by masons in UK, Scotland etc. where it actually started, and i am sure they built those to gain the trust of peoples.

Freemasonry the biggest Multinational corporation in the world.

reply to post by vinay86


Well, according to this article, I'm gonna have to disagree with you. They participate quite a bit in things of a charitable nature; you just don't hear about them because Freemasons don't always announce their actions. I get the impression from many here that Freemasons only do charitable works because it garners them some form of sympathy with the non-masons. I humbly disagree with this notion, as the entire purpose of charity is to remain anonymous. Otherwise, it's just another donation.

But them's my few pence. Do with them whatever thou whilst.

TheBorg

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
How does the constitution not recognize women as equals?

In the way that it is written. All men are created equal.

The Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) was a proposed amendment to the United States Constitution. The ERA was originally written by Alice Paul. In 1972, it passed both houses of Congress, but failed to gain ratification before its June 30, 1982 deadline.

en.wikipedia.org...

Still waiting for that ratification the last time that I looked, last put forward in 2009 according to wikipedia.

Originally posted by fordrew
There is a reason why women are not allowed in freemasonry!

There is also a reason why they don't want to join

It's okay, you can stop fluttering your feathers, no one's going to take away your boy's club...you, and respectively, the girl's contingent of segregated congregation are welcome to do what you do, I can think of nothing more tedious than spending an evening in a single gender environment but that is, equally, my choice. And I wouldn't impose my beliefs on the whole world.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
reply to post by Sectumsempra

 

Saying ''it's a fraternity'', is as much of an ethical justification for their bigoted membership rules as a bunch of white people forming a group and declaring it a ''caucasianity'', prohibiting non-whites from joining.

The latter would rightly be admonished and ridiculed, yet the former is a well known organisation, whose members have achieved some of the highest and most prestigious roles in the world.

haha can you not see? thats the kkk, any neo nazi groups and confederate groups. blacks have black panthers. its not illegal. deny ignorance pal.


edit - also where do you get off trying to tell a private organization what to do? if you started a group would you want someone else to control how you run it? life isnt fair and definitely isnt equal. get over it carebear. its pc people like you that makes the world suck.

reply to post by vinay86

And I told you there that we do participate in the charitable work. Here's a list of a few:

MasoniCHIP
RARA
CMMRF
KTEF
Shriner's Hospital for Children

Here is a good page to see: Masonic Charities

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
How does the constitution not recognize women as equals?

In the way that it is written. All men are created equal.

That is purely a semantical arguement as women are afforded the same rights as men. There is nothing in the United States Constitution that would prohibit any right or liberty from women while conversely giving it to men. Unless of course you happen to know something about the Constitution that others have missed.

Originally posted by fordrew
Name me some female inventors off the top of your head WITHOUT looking it up HA BET YOU CAN'T.

Marie Curie, Hedy Lamar and Ruth Wakefield came to mind without me resorting to Google.

That was a bit of an obnoxious post and I do not see its relevance.

There are some very specific details about how men view themselves in the hollywood movie 'Stepford Wives', based on the story by Ira Levin. Watch the first effort. The remake may have some valid scenes, though I refer to the original.

One of the club members couldn't handle his uptake of nanoelectricity & drugs, one evening, and the older guys in the group ridiculed him, among other things, for his choice of pvc plastics, because he drove a 'Lincoln'. He had to give up the wheel. It was shameful for him.

This same polyvinylchloride-to-human interface theme is treated in '2 Lane Blacktop', and in 'Repo Man'. Pynchon warns us a year later of this. Soon you'll be buying it, working for it, possibly suffering on account of it.

If the guys will get on each other for their taste in plastic nutrient uptake, how much more so will they subjugate their girls to this? They aren't supposed to know, fer chrissake. Also, there were some balls in the movie, because I recall Katherine Ross just shoving a huge knife to the gut of her changed neighbor/friend like it was a 100% certainty she was knifing a robot. It's like 'Psycho' but in a hostess outfit. Also, don't think the women don't have their little clubs. They had their own club in this movie as well, plus, they gossipped all the time, talking about bedroom things involving their men, BEFORE they were ameliorated. The book is more subtle. It has the Ross character slowly agreeing to taking the cure and letting it take her over. Anyway, just think of the Stepford Men's Club as the local freemason lodge. The guys want to whip it out and have a measuring fest, you know? Whhoo hooo look at what we can harness, all this occult stuff etc....


Hell, I hear that most married guys have to beg for sex. I would say there's a lot going on b/w the sexes that shouldn't be going on. I can't imagine living like that. Like someone said in the hysteria personality disorder thread...people pretty much suck.

Why not let guys join the girl scouts? Or moderate 'the View'? It's their club. I'm not a mason. I know nothing about it. Apparently if they exclude women it is their right. I'm sure women have ways to control their guy.

Originally posted by vinay86
I asked the same question on my thread, that if freemasonry is a charitable organization than why it does not actively participate in charitable activities, it is a worldwide organization, it is here in India and i don't know of any charitable act done by them here...

Maybe if you spent a little time looking you would have found this from the Grand Lodge of India website.

All monies raised for charity are drawn from amongst Freemasons, their families and friends, while grants and donations are made to Masonic and non-Masonic charities alike. Widows and others in distressed circumstances are assisted by the provision of financial grants. In India too the Masonic Fraternity is involved in several charitable projects, all over the country. The General Williams Masonic Polyclinic at Janpath, New Delhi, Masonic Public School in Vasant Kunj, New Delhi, Amrit Masonic Charitable Society, Noida, Masonic Medical care centre for children in Coimbatore, as also the adoption of an entire village located in backward area in Bheemlipatnam in Visakhapatnam Distt and another village in Srikakulam District, for all round development in Health, Sanitation, Education & Housing. & Construction of Sheds for cyclone victims in Andhra Pradesh, awarding many Scholarships and Bursaries to deserving students, helping institutions for the handicapped and the aged, holding of periodical Blood donation camps, Eye camps and other Health Camps etc., are examples of some of the socially relevant activities of Masonic organisations all over the country.

The thread question could also be rephrased as, "In the 21st century, why does Freemasonry still discriminate against atheists?" It's not that we don't like atheists or don't want them around or think less of them; it's simply that our fraternity isn't directed at them. That is to say, it's simply not addressing them. In the same way our fraternity doesn't address women. We seek to help men better themselves. Nothing more, nothing less. So, the fact that we are making a discrimination doesn't mean that it's prejudicial or an ethical problem; it simply means are group doesn't address women specifically and as such wasn't designed for them. As has been said before, it's a FRATERNITY. There are many sororities out there and I've never gotten all bunched up because I could join one of those. In fact, it's never occurred to me that I couldn't. It's a girl's group. Why would I as a man get upset that I couldn't join a girl's group.

I mentioned this thread to my wife and she immediately laughed and said, "sounds like some people need to relax and go on a date or something." I agree. So much to truly get upset about in this world and yet the OP is mad because women can't join a masonic lodge?

On that note I shall leave and enjoy a day of heli-skiing with my wife today and shall never think of nor read this thread again. What silliness.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
The Order of the Eastern Star is a clandestine order, and is not the same as Freemasonry.

OES is most certainly NOT a clandestine order. You may be confusing it with co-masonry, which is considered clandestine by mainstream Masonry. OES is an affiliated group recognized by most if not all mainstream Grand Lodges in the United States.

My apologies; I thought that it was considered a clandestine order because it broke one of the fundamental rules of Masonry.

However, what you say is only true to an extent.

A man who decides to leave the Order of the Eastern Star will be considered by all other Masonic Lodges, so long as he is recommended by a fellow Mason from that lodge.

A woman who decides to leave the Order of the Eastern Star will not be considered for membership of any other Masonic Lodges.

You can say that they are ''affiliated'' all you want, but the fact of the matter remains that the women of the Order are not permitted to join mainstream Masonry.

The rules are bigoted and intolerant.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
The first amendment gives all US citizens freedom of assembly. The Supreme Court in NAACP v Alabama further made that explicit that citizens have the freedom of association.

I cut off the rest of your comment because I think that it would have been too long to quote in its entirety, not because I thought that it wasn't worth quoting.

I commend your obvious knowledge and research on this subject.

I appreciate that it is legal for Freemasons to sexually discriminate whilst cowering behind the US Constitution.

My thread isn't intended to address the legality of this policy, but rather the ethics and the apparent hypocrisy of the Masonic organisation.

Although I wasn't aware of the court cases that you have mentioned, I was pretty sure that someone, somewhere along the line would have legally challenged ( and failed ) the bigoted membership criteria of this organisation.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
Therefore, if one of the 3 things required to be a Mason is that you're a man, then the Masons have a constitutional right not to admit women.

Yes, in the same way that a society has the constitutional right to prohibit blacks, Jews and gays from their membership.

The problem arises from the fact that an organisation that bases their membership criteria along genetic discrimination, such as race, gender, sexuality etc, are usually reviled, and justifiably scorned and ridiculed.


However, the Freemasons, whose bigoted rules include ''no women'' - which is exactly the same as an ''no blacks'', ''no Jews' or ''no gays'' rule - appears to be free from such obvious admonishment, criticism and ridicule, and their hypocritical members - who pay lip-service to ''good causes'' - are often free to escape the rightful indignation at their nauseating bigotry.

Originally posted by KSigMason
1. Yes, you have to be a man to join the Freemasons.

Which is the premise of my thread.

Originally posted by KSigMason
It's not the Lodges that set the standard, but the Grand Lodge (the State level in the US and country level everywhere else) that sets the rules for their respective jurisdiction.

Whether it's the individual Lodge or the Grand Lodge that outlines these rules is immaterial and irrelevant.

Someone who joins their local Lodge is fully cognisant of the rules that the Grand Lodge applies.

Passing the buck doesn't work.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Freemasonry is a "fraternity". Also, there is the clandestine, co-ed Freemasons that is not recognized and allows women and atheists in it.

Once again, and I'm sorry to reiterate, but stating that a group is a ''fraternity'' doesn't justify the fraternity's existence, nor its raison d'être.


Freemasonry barring atheists is not my concern, as whether someone believes or disbelieves in a ''Grand Architect of the Universe'' is based upon personal choice, and consequently an organisation is well within their rights to disqualify someone from potential membership based upon their personal beliefs and choices.


This is completely different to barring somebody from membership on genetic grounds; eg. gender.

Originally posted by KSigMason
We have the Order of the Eastern Star, Social Order of the Beauceant, Amaranth, and Daughters of the Nile that are aimed for women and are recognized groups.

Why are they ''aimed'' at women, though ? How patronising (!)

Why not just open up all orders to both genders ?

What exactly is the problem with allowing women in to all branches of Masonry ?

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


how can they be bigots if there are specific and well thought out reasons why they are not allowed in freemasonry? The issue is not about gender equality but about the differences between genders. There is no such thing as gender equality and racial equality anyways and if you say otherwise then you are pretty much a fool if you can't see the differences.

This is a sidebar but have you ever seen a female stone mason before?

Originally posted by network dude
you help me get into a sorority, and I will help you get into masonry. I want one of those 'naked pillow fight' kinds like in animal house. Just let me know where to meet you.

Again, your argument is based upon the ''two wrongs make a right'' logical fallacy.

Using your argument, the KKK is morally acceptable because groups such as the black panthers exist.


Are we going to hear any logical justification for the bigotry and hypocrisy of Freemasonry, or are we just going to be diverted and side-tracked by logically fallacious ''arguments'' in defence of this archaic rabble ?

Originally posted by fordrew
how can they be bigots if there are specific and well thought out reasons why they are not allowed in freemasonry? The issue is not about gender equality but about the differences between genders. There is no such thing as gender equality and racial equality anyways and if you say otherwise then you are pretty much a fool if you can't see the differences.

Please tell me what it is that would make women unsuitable Masons ?

Come on, let's top beating around the bush...

Why do you think it's acceptable to prohibit women from joining the Freemasons ?

Originally posted by fordrew
This is a sidebar but have you ever seen a female stone mason before?