TSA, does it have the right?

I do not fly and I won't.

But I worry that the courthouses will be next, some already have the body scanners.
If that is the case, I won't have any choice at alI.

I do not think they have the right. The constitution is clear.

They do not have the right. They TOOK the right.

Some are still trying to give them more. I don't understand those people. Why can't those people go live in a safe fema camp or something?

I'm so tired of hearing 'ceramic knife.' How about instead of spending billions making every passenger feel like a criminal, the money is spent on reinforcing the security on board the plane? Double reinforced steel cockpit doors comes to mind à la EL AL. I don't believe anyone could get to the cockpit of the airline owned guided missile with steel doors installed with a ceramic knife. So what are they going to do? Murder all the people on board only to die when the plane lands? They would have made more of a statement and killed more people just setting off a bomb at the TSA checkpoint. I mean really how much more of a slap in the face could they give than killing people waiting around at a government checkpoint.

Of course, they could still bring that PETN bomb on board if they wanted to regardless of the body scanner. The body scanner isn't really a deterrent.

reply to post by Death_Kron


It is as much of a violation of your privacy and natural rights. Especially since some people have no choice but to fly, that means that they have no choice but to be groped. Mandatory groping, in my opinion, is in fact far worse than the sexual assailant because not only is it not considered wrong, but it is considered right.

Let us say you were raped. Would it be worse for the rape to be government sanctioned or for it to be a criminal who is later charged, tried and punished? To me, the answer is simple. To me Americans are starting to think illogically.

First, they came for the box cutters. And I didn't say anything because I don't cut boxes. Then, they came for the bottles of shampoo, and I didn't say anything because I don't wash my hair. Now, they are coming for my junk, and I can't say anything because they've got me by the balls.

Tank Wilson

Originally posted by janon
I'm so tired of hearing 'ceramic knife.

You know this made me think... in what possible way could a ceramic knife be a terrible terrorist thread? Isn't the big concern that the plane is, in effect, a guided missle? Okay, so someone pulls out a ceramic knife... they aren't getting through the hardened, locked cockpit door with that, that's for certain. Yes, there is the possibility that someone could be harmed by the knife, but on the flipside, isn't that what the air marshall is there for? The knife weilder would have to know in advance which passenger was the marshall, then get close enough TO the marshall to disable them first before anyone else, or they are mincemeat. And what then? The plane itself is in no danger of going unless there are a bunch of pieces in the cargo hold (having gotten by baggage screening...) that he can assemble into a bomb? That sounds very complicated and unlikely to me, unless there is some other danger that a ceramic knife proposes beyond the above scenario.

If it's merely on the grounds that someone could get hurt? I would think a person has a much greater chance being knifed at a 7-11 or quickie mart than one has of being killed by a ceramic knfie on an airplane.

Originally posted by darkbake
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

It is as much of a violation of your privacy and natural rights. Especially since some people have no choice but to fly, that means that they have no choice but to be groped. Mandatory groping, in my opinion, is in fact far worse than the sexual assailant because not only is it not considered wrong, but it is considered right.

Let us say you were raped. Would it be worse for the rape to be government sanctioned or for it to be a criminal who is later charged, tried and punished? To me, the answer is simple. To me Americans are starting to think illogically.

edit on 21-11-2010 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-11-2010 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

Great!

Now you comparing unwanted, forced physical penetrative sex to a simple pat down, if you fail to see the difference between the two then I really don't know what to say, it's a bit like comparing severe blunt force trauma to a stubbed toe.

Just like the others in this thread you seem to imply that the government pays people to "grope" others for their own sexual satisfaction, another attempt at blowing something well and truly out of proportion and bending it out of shape.

Originally posted by ProvehitoInAltum

Originally posted by janon
I'm so tired of hearing 'ceramic knife.

You know this made me think... in what possible way could a ceramic knife be a terrible terrorist thread? Isn't the big concern that the plane is, in effect, a guided missle? Okay, so someone pulls out a ceramic knife... they aren't getting through the hardened, locked cockpit door with that, that's for certain. Yes, there is the possibility that someone could be harmed by the knife, but on the flipside, isn't that what the air marshall is there for? The knife weilder would have to know in advance which passenger was the marshall, then get close enough TO the marshall to disable them first before anyone else, or they are mincemeat. And what then? The plane itself is in no danger of going unless there are a bunch of pieces in the cargo hold (having gotten by baggage screening...) that he can assemble into a bomb? That sounds very complicated and unlikely to me, unless there is some other danger that a ceramic knife proposes beyond the above scenario.

If it's merely on the grounds that someone could get hurt? I would think a person has a much greater chance being knifed at a 7-11 or quickie mart than one has of being killed by a ceramic knfie on an airplane.

Ermmm, as far as I know air marshals aren't place on every flight.

What about if a terrorist brought a ceramic knife onto a plane and held it against a passengers throat, threatening to kill them unless the pilot opened the cockpit? What would/should the pilot do in that situation?

reply to post by Death_Kron


Really? You argue that calling a pat-down sexual assault is blowing things out of proportion. And then you liken having x-rays shot at you is the same as crossing the street? Or eating food fresh out of the oven? That sir, is a double standard, or as I like to call it...hypocrisy. And do these new measures make you safer, from my understanding not everyone is sent to these machines it's a random thing, how does that make you safer? Let's say hypothetically that there is a cell of say 7 people who plan to do mayhem on a plane, all armed with your favorite weapon of mass destruction, the ceramic knife. One of them is sent to the AIT, refuses, is given a pat-down, his weapon found, he is detained. The other 6 walk through the metal detector, board their plane, and cause mayhem, or maybe just go around and cut up everyone's steak for them. You get better odds in Vegas.

reply to post by Taliesien333


Yep calling a pat down assualt is massively blown out of proportion, a bit like if someone sweared at you in the street, I suppose that's could be classed as assault aswell? Completely and utter rubbish coming from do-gooders like yourself...

Yet again, you also seem to be someone who believes that just because a system isn't perfect then its not worth bothering with in the first place, maybe we should apply the same logic to the judicial system aswell?

reply to post by Death_Kron


Absolutely love how you failed to acknowledge your own hypocrisy. And I never said anything about abandoning any system. In that particular argument, if anything I was advocating that these measures aren't really measures at all if they aren't applied to everyone. And you really need to quit making that blanket statement argument that we should just altogether drop security measures from airports, people are against the new measures, nobody has said anything about the measures in use prior to October.

Originally posted by Death_Kron

Originally posted by jfj123
This is what you wrote:
"I actually never said I had a problem with peoples homes being searched

This means you DON'T have a problem with peoples homes being searched....ehem.

would I agree with that? Nope, I wouldn't.

This means you DO have a problem with peoples homes being searched

Let me know if you need me to help you understand any of your other posts.

Nope, it means that I didn't say something your saying I did...

Just like I've alluded to the fact that your an over dramatic nancy, I haven't said it though have I?

Hey if you want to LIE, that's on you my friend. You've just DESTROYED your credibility by claiming you never said any of that yet there it is for all to see
Here's a little advice about lying....Don't lie to people who know you're lying

Originally posted by ProvehitoInAltum

Originally posted by janon
I'm so tired of hearing 'ceramic knife.

You know this made me think... in what possible way could a ceramic knife be a terrible terrorist thread? Isn't the big concern that the plane is, in effect, a guided missle? Okay, so someone pulls out a ceramic knife... they aren't getting through the hardened, locked cockpit door with that, that's for certain. Yes, there is the possibility that someone could be harmed by the knife, but on the flipside, isn't that what the air marshall is there for? The knife weilder would have to know in advance which passenger was the marshall, then get close enough TO the marshall to disable them first before anyone else, or they are mincemeat. And what then? The plane itself is in no danger of going unless there are a bunch of pieces in the cargo hold (having gotten by baggage screening...) that he can assemble into a bomb? That sounds very complicated and unlikely to me, unless there is some other danger that a ceramic knife proposes beyond the above scenario.

Let's also not forget that the one or two clowns with a ceramic knife would be jumped by 100 seriously pissed off passengers who will remove said knife and give them boo-boo's

That ceramic knife scenario is a straw man argument. I can pretty much guarantee that no US plane will ever be hijacked again by a few clowns with knives.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
Now you comparing unwanted, forced physical penetrative sex to a simple pat down,

I like your ongoing lie about how it's "a simple pat down"
If it were just a simple pat down, most people wouldn't have a problem with it.
You KNOW it's NOT just a simple pat down so why keep towing the party line about it?
Absurd statements like that are wiping out any credibility you may have had.

Just like the others in this thread you seem to imply that the government pays people to "grope" others for their own sexual satisfaction, another attempt at blowing something well and truly out of proportion and bending it out of shape.

And here we go again with another one of your prepackaged, disingenuous statements. We all know that the government doesn't intentionally hire perverts....that part is irrelevant. Groping without consent is assault. Aside from that, it violates the 4th Amendment. Maybe you people in the UK don't take your rights seriously but in the United States of America, THE CONSTITUTION still means something.

If the government can make an excuse just one time to set aside peoples CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, and we accept it, they'll do it again, and again, and again, and again and POOF no more CONSTITUTION, no more FREEDOMS, no more AMERICA.

Some disturbing info about body scanning.

The TSA creep will see a negative image of your body.
That image CAN be saved, copied and moved in a number of ways. They claim it can't but images have already leaked onto the internet so we know the claim is false. But even if the claim were true, how many of us have camera phones that can take quality pics ?
OK that being said, you can take one of those negative images, invert the image using a piece of free photo software such as irfanview, and guess what you get?

Yep A NICE CLEAR CRISP PICTURE WITH LOTS OF DETAILS.

Go to this link to see an example (warning contains nudity as it shows the negative and inverted image):
www.worldculturepictorial.com...

Or do it for yourself by simply googling "body scanner photos" and amazingly a number of pics will pop up.
Download a piece of free photo editing software.
Invert the picture.
POOF ! you have naked people !

And does anyone actually think this won't be abused like crazy ?!?!?

Now remember, gizmodo has 100 photos from body scanners already and they're already on the net.
Now picture your son or daughter going through the body scanner and their body images are captured. Then a free piece of software turns it into instant child porn for the pervs. Now your son or daughters naked body will be all over the internet FOREVER ! Gee this doesn't sound scary !!!!

but don't worry. There is an alternative:

You can watch the TSA molest your children !

Originally posted by Taliesien333
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

Absolutely love how you failed to acknowledge your own hypocrisy. And I never said anything about abandoning any system. In that particular argument, if anything I was advocating that these measures aren't really measures at all if they aren't applied to everyone. And you really need to quit making that blanket statement argument that we should just altogether drop security measures from airports, people are against the new measures, nobody has said anything about the measures in use prior to October.

It wasn't a blanket statement, it was a socratic question, one which you failed to answer....

Once again, no system is perfect and if random searches save one, just one life then I don't see the problem.

I've been randomly searched at an airport here in the UK about 4 years ago and I didn't have a problem with it.

reply to post by jfj123


I like how you twist peoples words and have resorted to arguing about semantics

It isn't assault as I've already pointed out, I even quoted you your own source as to why it isn't assault but you failed to answer that. (one of the clauses of assault is the intention of physical violence, or did you miss that one?)

If you don't agree with the possibility of being randomly searched then don't fly, simple.

I don't agree with the fact that I can't smoke inside a pub any longer but if I want to enter that pub and have a drink there I have to abide by the rules.

Edit: I just googled that phrase, it's amazing how effective these scanners are! I also didn't find any image offensive or to be a cause for concern, am I missing something here?

Finally, no you haven't proven that it's more than a simple pat down, wheres your evidence for this claim?

Originally posted by jfj123

You can watch the TSA molest your children !

There is also a venereal disease risk from the new fondle/search/molest methods....

Check it out though bro, I've got that covered:

[Important] TSA and Venereal Disease and YOU!

Originally posted by Exuberant1

Originally posted by jfj123

You can watch the TSA molest your children !

There is also a venereal disease risk from the new fondle/search/molest methods....

Check it out though bro, I've got that covered:

[Important] TSA and Venereal Disease and YOU!

You cannot catch Venereal disease from feeling the outside of someones clothes....

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by jfj123

 

I like how you twist peoples words and have resorted to arguing about semantics

Not at all. I used YOUR own post against you. That's your fault for lying.

It isn't assault as I've already pointed out, I even quoted you your own source as to why it isn't assault but you failed to answer that. (one of the clauses of assault is the intention of physical violence, or did you miss that one?)

No it's not so you didn't actually read it. I'll go ahead and repost the part I was referring to.

Simple assault can be distinguished without the intent of injury upon another person. The violation of one's personal space or touching in a way the victim deemed inappropriate can be simple assault.

This is part of what I posted.

If you don't agree with the possibility of being randomly searched then don't fly, simple.

If you don't agree with having your home randomly searched, don't own a home.

Edit: I just googled that phrase, it's amazing how effective these scanners are! I also didn't find any image offensive or to be a cause for concern, am I missing something here?

YES.

Finally, no you haven't proven that it's more than a simple pat down, wheres your evidence for this claim?

The TSA calls them Enhanced pat downs. Enhanced from what? DUH !

reply to post by jfj123

Not at all. I used YOUR own post against you. That's your fault for lying.

Haha, okay sure, what ever you say.

No it's not so you didn't actually read it. I'll go ahead and repost the part I was referring to.

Wow, you really do have issues if you believe that someone touching you without your consent is assault, I suppose it's down to people like you that we have the current claim culture in todays society.

If you don't agree with having your home randomly searched, don't own a home.

Already pointed out to you that my home isn't a public place and that members of the public do not walk through it on a daily basis so therefore I'm causing no potential for a threat. Try again...

YES.

Yes I'm missing something or yes they are incredibly effective? The resolution in the pictures was amazing!

The TSA calls them Enhanced pat downs. Enhanced from what? DUH !

Ermmm the passenger is still wearing their clothes, no issue here.