The new Banana Republic -- the USofA

Originally posted by peck420
reply to post by Chai_An

 

There is no such thing as "wealthy only" tax loopholes.

All tax loopholes are accessable if you qualify, end of story.

You are quick to mention the loopholes they use to their benefit, but make no mention of the risks they took to open said loopholes.

If I invest money, I can shelter some in tax "loopholes". But I can also loose that money because it is an investment, it is not guaranteed.

If I start a business, I can shelter some in other business tax "loopholes". But, I also have the risk of the business itself.

Every single tax "loophole" involves spending money (or assets) to first open the loophole.

What risks? Loopholes are created by government, so what risks did the super wealthy make? I'm not talking about small businesses.

My neighborhood is filled with large homes and swimming pools, my best friend drives a Porsche 911, and the guy 3 doors down has a Ferrari, an older one but it's still a Ferrari.

My office is filled with the well educated of other nations desperate to make a life for themselves here, one guy in my team is from Zimbabwe, where the wealth is evenly distributed and everyone is trying to leave. When it was Rhodesia and had white elitists who earned disproportionately larger percentages than the majority, the population was happier, and yes that's also his opinion and he isn't white.

Personally I don't begrudge the fat cats their over-sized piece of the fiscal pie, because the people around me have higher standards of living here than the rest of the world, that's why the rest of the world is coming here.

Capitalism is unfair as it favors those who are hard working, intelligent, and creative. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. (the latter stolen from Winston C.)

Originally posted by aching_knuckles

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Why do the “RICH” need tax breaks? Simple, they need more money to start businesses and open up branches in new markets.

So first you say the rich need tax breaks, then in your next post claim that they dont exist.......right....


how about this. Give ME a tax break so i can start my own business. Why give it to people that already have opportunities and the capital, ie RICH GETTING RICHER.

There is a agency in America called the IRS, their website is
www.irs.gov...
Go there and find out what you need to do, and learn about tax returns etc

reply to post by peck420


Because the system is functioning so that most of us, likely including you, will never "make the money I want".

The problem is not that you don't or i don't deserve to have a stable life with some time to relax and enjoy ourselves, it's that the top tier of our society believes that they are entitled to take as much as they want and give us as little as possible. There is no social responsibility in our financial practices. The gap of wealth grows ever larger and fewer and fewer people can share in the fruits of the hard work that is done day after day by Americans.

you are suffering from the "I'll be rich and keep it all too!" syndrome. It's a matter of perception that amassing as much personal money as possible is even going to lead the best quality of life.. If you can take 1 million and leave 9 others with nothing, you will have a nice house and car and 9 guys that want to slit your throat and take your stuff.

Or you can equitably distribute the wealth and have 10 guys that have a relatively similar lives (doesn't have to be entirely equal, just reasonably fair) and you will all be happy to hang out and enjoy each others company peacefully.

This is the situation we have today in America. The stratification of society is reaching such extremes that a few people are living it up while the majority shoulder the burdens.

The point is we need to change how we value peoples efforts so that we all share more equitably in the fruits. The rich will still be rich.. Just not so much at the expense of the world around them.

reply to post by ClintK


Any business owner can use the exact same strategy.

You don't have to be rich.

The only determining factor for that example would be the purchasing power of your company and the accepted costs of entertaining clients in your area.

Example:
Where I live, they would never allow a $2 million living space for clients as an acceptable expense...there is only 4-5 homes in this city at that value or higher.

In the same country, in a larger coastal city, this expense would probably not get noticed, as there is many living spaces valued at considerable more.

Business taxation, specifically expenses, are far more subjective than people realize. As long as I can justify an expense, and back it up with some credible business benefit (or even attempted business benefits) it will be accepted 99% of the time.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Did you see me pitching off-shore accounts??

But anyway, I'm not posting links to any of those managed accounts, forex opportunities that I'm talking about (considering the Terms and Conditions of the site), but they do exist. And the main reason a small minority profit from them, is because the majority of people "know" they are scams, and consider any public mention of them as "too good to be true" or spam...

Yeah, the rich will get richer by continuing to accumulate the wealth that used to be that of the rest, and of course owning the new means of production and resources on the planet.

The poor continue to depend on their salaries for their well being while the rich will continue to diversify their income so they will continue to thrive in case one or more sources of income fails. They educate themselves on new opportunities and, make informed decisions and calculated risks, and jump in.

I worked for an investment bank for a number of years, and am willing to go on a limb and say that I understand investments, risk/returns and market efficiencies better than you. I both made and lost a fair amount of money in the market.

The poor live and work from paycheck to paycheck. Yes, they can do better, but by and large they just don't have the critical mass of money to make a difference in their lives. And investment by the poor, or lack of such, is not the chief reason our society becomes so out of balance in income distribution.

Originally posted by aching_knuckles

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Why do the “RICH” need tax breaks? Simple, they need more money to start businesses and open up branches in new markets.

So first you say the rich need tax breaks, then in your next post claim that they dont exist.......right....


how about this. Give ME a tax break so i can start my own business. Why give it to people that already have opportunities and the capital, ie RICH GETTING RICHER.

what is this a got cha post. Loop holes, never seen one when doing taxes. Tax break can mean many things. in this case if you read my first post it means lowering the income tax on persons and companys... got cha

trust me i would love for you to have a tax brake as well but your goverment and the IRS will not let you when they tax you 45% of your income. (i live in california, thats my taxes at 60,000k a year)

reply to post by kykweer




Read the articles in the links I posted. That simply isn't true. They do pay a lower percentage.

reply to post by Retseh


I don't know you personally so I can't say what you have or don't have, but if I read your statement correctly it said a mouthful about the stereotypical mindset of the haves and have nots in Western society.

Originally posted by Retseh
My office is filled with the well educated of other nations desperate to make a life for themselves here, one guy in my team is from Zimbabwe, where the wealth is evenly distributed and everyone is trying to leave.

Nice try at Reductio ad Absurdum.

How about Switzerland, Holland or Denmark, with their more even distribution of wealth? Nobody wants to leave these countries. So let's have an intelligent conversation and not talk about Malawi.

Capitalism is unfair as it favors those who are hard working, intelligent, and creative.

It also favors unscrupulous types the likes of which brought the US banking system to its knees, for personal gain.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

The poor live and work from paycheck to paycheck. Yes, they can do better, but by and large they just don't have the critical mass of money to make a difference in their lives. And investment by the poor, or lack of such, is not the chief reason our society becomes so out of balance in income distribution.

This. I am probably divulging more than I want to here, but what the hell.

My dream right now is to have my own food cart. I have my business plan set up, i have my menu, i have the location, i have the experience. What I dont have is $5000 to get my dream off the ground.

I cant get a loan, because I made bad credit decisions when I was a kid. Most of the money I need is for local permits and inspections.

The $5000 would CHANGE MY LIFE. I would be my own boss. I would make far more money than I do now, and work less hours. $5000 to alot of people is peanuts, to me, its the difference between owning my own business and accepting food stamps.

Do you know how long it takes to save $5000 when you have MAYBE $20 left a week after bills? It is barely even possible.

THIS is why people are pissed. Dreams and lives are dashed by such miniscule amounts of money, as jerkoffs with old money screw the rest of us and collect more of our money just because we NEED a bank account to exist in todays world.

reply to post by ClintK


This is a reply to Chai_An as well.

"True, but most tax loopholes are basically useless to the middle class. How many people in the middle class, for example, claim significant dividend income? How many are paid in stock options, which technically aren't income?"

Any business owner can set their business up to pay out using these mechanisms.

You can't declare shares for your business? Of course you can. You can even setup a dividend payout rate. Might not be what you are expecting, but you can do it.

The problem is greed. Most small business owners won't setup these methods because their paycheque would get....SMALLER.

Why would it get smaller?...because there is a legal relationship between dividends and profits. There is "techniquely" no such relationship required between profits and your contract or paycheque.

If you are a mid size business I would recommend working this all they way down to After Tax Income to see which is best.

It doesn't mean that you can't do it. You can even pay yourself out with stock options if you want. but you better make sure you are growing fast enough so that you don't devalue yourself more than you gain.

There is absolutely NOTHING a rich person can do that you can't, legally.

reply to post by Fiberx


LMAO!

There is aboslutely nothing that can be done to stop me, at this point, from getting the money I want.

It is literaly just a matter of time.

I took a huge risk, it payed off. Next time, the risk won't be so big because I will have more wealth to back my stake. Or I can take multiple projects of equal risk to balance it out.

Will I ever become a billionaire? Don't know, I don't think I have the drive to obtain that kind of money.
Will I ever be a millionaire? Yes, like I said, just a matter of time.

PS - Key properties never go bad .

reply to post by aching_knuckles


Have you looked into co-ownership with a structured bye out, provided by a private investor?

There are many more avenues available than banks for loans.

Ask around, you would be amazed at what some of the answers would be.

A lot of business men/women respect balls (for lack of a better term). They might invest just because you had the gumption to ask.

Originally posted by peck420
reply to post by ClintK

 

This is a reply to Chai_An as well.

"True, but most tax loopholes are basically useless to the middle class. How many people in the middle class, for example, claim significant dividend income? How many are paid in stock options, which technically aren't income?"

Any business owner can set their business up to pay out using these mechanisms.

You can't declare shares for your business? Of course you can. You can even setup a dividend payout rate. Might not be what you are expecting, but you can do it.

No you can't. You have to incorporate before you can start paying people (or yourself) with options.

And dividend payout rate, in the case of a business you owned, would be the company profits. So it would be pointless. I'm talking about people owning stock that pays a regular dividend.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

I worked for an investment bank for a number of years, and am willing to go on a limb and say that I understand investments, risk/returns and market efficiencies better than you. I both made and lost a fair amount of money in the market.

I'm sure a lot more people know it better than me. But that doesn't stop me (or anyone else for that matter) from trying to find a way to better my life financially.

The poor live and work from paycheck to paycheck. Yes, they can do better, but by and large they just don't have the critical mass of money to make a difference in their lives. And investment by the poor, or lack of such, is not the chief reason our society becomes so out of balance in income distribution.

It starts with living within their means and getting the least amount of debt as possible.

Originally posted by kykweer
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Well then who is to blame?

Blame?...there is nobody to blame...if you give me a chance, I will grab a dollar no matter how many dollars I have...this is our nature..we are hoarders.

The blame is the concept itself...capitalism is a good motivator, however, pure capitalism is destructive as it allows for class collapse over time.

You can't seriously be saying anyone not super rich must be a idiot..are you a rothchild? a rockafeller? doubtful..does that make you stupid and uneducated?
You were born into a old system that has long since grown past the everyone has a chance stage...initially capitalism is great because indeed everyone does...and for a few generations, people really do have the hard work = financial success...but after a hundred or two years of running, you get this result....a child born into a low/middle class family will have a easier time sprouting wings and flying than working hard to get rich...and its actually not too bad now...come back in 100 years if things keep unregulated and the rich protected.

You can argue that a right wing approach to protect the rich is the right thing to do, but as the expression goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Originally posted by TheBandit795



It starts with living within their means and getting the least amount of debt as possible.

edit on 10-11-2010 by TheBandit795 because: fixed quotes

True, so very true. People will need to return as best as they can to the old way of thinking for those things not considered a necessity, "if I can't afford it I don't get it".

Some thoughts to digest...
- Top 10% : Pay 70% of nations taxes
- Top 1% : Pay 38% of nations taxes
- Bottom 50% : Pay 0% of nations taxes
- Bottom 50% : are actually paid to be citizens
- Minimum wage and homeless people do not create jobs
- Heirs to large amounts of $ are ultimately the benefactors of someone else's hard work and smart financial practices. If they choose to spend it making their family financially independent rather than at Walmart, is it really wrong. Was it the beneficiaries fault?

What part of this is unfair?

Personally I fall in just above the bottom 50% but I never want to see the ability to reach the top 10% taken away. Infringing on ROI only diminishes entrepreneurial motivation. That is bad for the economy that we all share.

reply to post by ClintK


If you are a business owner you should be incorporated already.

Only a fool would not setup protection for their personal assets, and incoroprating your business provides that protection.

As for stocks that pay dividends...they are sold at the stock market available to anyone for purchase.

What stops you from buying those stocks?

I drive a mazda, most of my friends drive vehicles of slightly higher caliber. Is it their fault? Nope, it is mine, I choose to spend my money on things other than a vehicle. They choose to buy nicer cars.

I just searched "stocks that pay dividends" on google. 8,190,000 results.

All on the first page (except wikipedia) are lists of stocks with high, or strong, dividend pay outs for Canada. All are available for purchase. These can be purchased on my behalf by a stock broker, a bank, or by myself via tools like eTrade.

When you break down everything financial, it always comes down to one thing. The choices we make. Everything after that is scaled by the amount of money available. The funny thing is, if you make good choices you start to create a snowball effect, and your wealth starts to grow very quickly. As your wealth grows, your ability to create more wealth grows as well. This is why the rich are getting richer. The rich continue to make the best choices for themselves.

As long as the middle and poor class continues to see immediate material wealth as the goal, that will be what limits them. They will consistently make bad choices.