Did Jesjuah stage his own death in order to escape from it all?

Originally posted by stayhuman011
reply to post by adjensen

 

I'm sorry you disagree, but my understanding is that the New Testament was written by the Piso Family in Rome at the time of the Council, it incorporated various texts collected prior to that time.....so in a sense, parts of where written before the council, just edited and rewritten into the New Testament that we now have.

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but your understanding is 100% wrong. The Canon of the New Testament was determined over 100 years prior, and had largely been unchanged since Origen. Historical evidence demonstrates that the texts were written prior to the late second century, and there is little evidence that the Gospels and most of the Epistles were written after 70AD. You have fallen victim to a conspiracy theory which claims what you state, with no proof, and directly against evidence which shows it to be false.

If your beliefs include such an egregious error, you may want to think about the likelihood of the rest of it being completely wrong, as well.

Originally posted by Hemisphere

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Hemisphere
"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us." Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

You do realize, I hope, that this is not a quote from a Pope, but a line from the satiric play "The Pageant of the Popes" by the Protestant playwright John Bale.

Well, I suppose that you didn't know that. Kinda makes your credibility suffer, though.

Neither I nor my credibility suffers. Rubes suffer. Yes, yes it has been attributed to numerous historical persons. Read any of the heavily edited histories of the papacy and you will likely come away knowing what perhaps Bale knew and that is the Church and the hierarchy never beleived what they were selling.

Or perhaps he was writing a satire. You do understand what a satire is, right?

For the rest of it, as I said, your credibility suffered, so your opinion is of little consequence. You claimed a quote came from Pope Leo X and when shown that it did not, you prevaricate and claim that Bale put a legitimate quote in an otherwise satirical play, despite the far-fetched chance of any Pope publicly saying anything remotely like that.

When one displays a radical bias, is proven to be wrong, and then continues on with their diatribe, it's not particularly interesting, sorry.

I'm not an apologist for the Catholic Church, which has its fair share of faults, but I can base my criticism on truth, not lies.

reply to post by adjensen

Christ suffered at the hands of men,

If in the unlikely event that he was a real character then he really didn't suffer that much did he, after all crucifixion was intended to drag the suffering out sometimes up to a week. Jesus got off very lightly indeed he was barely on the cross a couple of hours in comparison to the mere mortals who had to endure the torture for a far greater length of time.

It is claimed that he was crucified along with two other men so who needless to say suffered the same if not much more.

The entire myth is ridiculous and an insult to the intelligence, "the greatest sacrifice ever ?" hardly, the omniscient being came back to life for goodness sake !!

Originally posted by The Djin
If in the unlikely event that he was a real character then he really didn't suffer that much did he

If you believe that beating, scourging, and being nailed to a cross isn't suffering, then you have a streak of cruelty in you that is pitiable. Nice testimony of the grace of the "humanistic" viewpoint.

reply to post by adjensen


Please focus here. Do you actually believe that kind and benelovent God would send his "only son" to suffer for no other reason than because someone sinned against him? Makes NO sense.

Someone runs over your mailbox, so you sentence your kid to jumping out of a second story window to prove a point.

Come on, please don't be so gulliable to believe some guys stories. That's what scripture is, some group of guys stories that they wanted people to believe.

reply to post by adjensen


Please focus here. Do you actually believe that kind and benelovent God would send his "only son" to suffer for no other reason than because someone sinned against him? Makes NO sense.

Someone runs over your mailbox, so you sentence your kid to jumping out of a second story window to prove a point.

Come on, please don't be so gulliable to believe some guys stories. That's what scripture is, some group of guys stories that they wanted people to believe.

reply to post by Soldier of God


Wow, I guess you would say question nothing and be stupid the rest of your life and serve God because He is God. I have experienced that attitude first hand, from people who "serve God" and do His will because they love Him because He loves them.... and the circle goes on. I think anyone who accepts a religion/faith/belief without questioning anything, should do so wholeheartedly if that's what they want. However, I do not think it wise for that same person, who is happy to blindly follow the leader, to tell others to be as foolish.

Originally posted by amc621
reply to post by adjensen

 

Please focus here. Do you actually believe that kind and benelovent God would send his "only son" to suffer for no other reason than because someone sinned against him? Makes NO sense.

You are welcome to your opinion, I hope that you are so kind as to extend that same courtesy to me.

Yes, it makes perfect sense. Your comparative view of your son and your mailbox has no bearing on what Christians believe. God sent himself, not a proxy, to atone for our actions, because it was the only way to right things. As I said earlier, we have incurred an infinite debt. You are welcome to attempt to pay that back on your own, this is the choice that God gives you.

Having studied theology, Christian, Judaic and, to a lessor extent, Hindu, for many years, I came to the conclusions that I have as reasoned and logical, not because I blindly accept what someone tells me. It may offend you that this may be the case, but for myself, the fact that the truth I found corresponds to the truth testified to by scripture only serves to demonstrate harmony in my faith, religion and theology.

I would suggest that you will have more success in finding truth by looking for it, rather than criticizing others for the journey that they are on.

reply to post by Soldier of God


Just gotta say your replies are very ignorant. What NeoCM stated was valid, yet you gloss over it just to snap out a 'witty' Christian response. Way to state your case.

reply to post by Soldier of God


I think IAMIAM has a more noble cause than you do. He stated that we should save ourselves soon or we will be leaving our planet in dire straits for our future generations. You say he should worry more about his own soul than the ones who come after us. That sounds a bit more selfish to me. I don't think that is Jesus' message at all.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


No problem. I had the same problem for many years myself until I had a revelation. Jesus was the holy spirit made flesh, in the form of man. When he died (as God as man) he released the holy spirit unto all of mankind. Allowing the Holy Spirit to join with the spirits or frequencies of energy of all of mankind for the first time. This allows us to bind our spirits (if we don't reject it) with the Holy spirit. That is also what then allowed the holy spirit to manifest as man, which is why Jesus wasn't initially recognized as himself.

That is the short version of how his death on the cross released all of mankind.

Jaden

reply to post by amc621


Indeed. No conscious God would do what he denied Abraham to do, to kill his own son and commit the hiddious act of human sacrifice to benefit an evil mankind. The idea of a supreme personal God is absurd. Jesjuah himself taught that God is Love, a concept. To the Israelites Elohim would be the Forces of the universe - another conceptual God. Elohim seems to be a development of the Egyptian Creator Huhu, but that's not all, he also seems to be given the honour of creating the world in six days resting on the seventh, and the trail of events are a compressed version of the Enuma Elisj, a Sumerian tale expplaining the creation of the world in six days, only they are way more detailed, and more than one supreme God is involved, but the trail of events is exactly the same, only way more detailed.

The complexity becomes further apparent when Jahveh came into the picture claiming to be the One and Only Omnipotent God whose word is law. Seeing how the Jahveh character is infact based on pagan Sumerian lesser deity, a "common alien" whose story is easily discernable when comparing the different texts. The supporters of Jahveh within the Jewish community inherited the Jahveh character from Sumerian and Babylonian mythology, and Jahveh was an astrological deity, so his personality was made up in the same way as most other astrological deities. When the stars were such and such, Jahveh "uttered" or "commanded" this and that. Every astrological constellation was guarded by angels who were also patrons for the twelve tribes of Israel, but unlike Jahveh (who is a jealous god) the israelites were not allowed to worship these lesser angels. However, what the Israelites forgot was that Jahveh himself was a reshaped lesser Babylonian and even Sumerian astrological deity called Enki (the brother of Enlil) or Ea/Ia, Yaw or Ya'a. The Hebrew version seems to be all in one, a bunch of astrological and nature- gods made into one.

On could perhaps imagine that Jahveh Elohim would be a mix between Enki and Huhu, but the stuff gets so confusing to the end, that every scholar and researcher in the field, normally find it both natural and practically sound by the Israelis to gather them all into One Supreme God who carried all these characteristics, and even the names are quite equal. The Canaanite El became Elohim by incorporating a bunch of these lesser astrological and naturegods into one, but made the name plural intensive, showing he is One with all other gods incorporated, and Yah became Jahveh by entering the two creational breaths of Huhu

In 1964, a team of Italian archaeologists under the direction of Paolo Matthiae of the University of Rome La Sapienza performed a series of excavations of material from the third-millennium BCE city of Ebla. Much of the written material found in these digs was later translated by Dr. Giovanni Pettinato. Among other conclusions, he found a tendency among the inhabitants of Ebla to replace the name of El, king of the gods of the Canaanite Pantheon (found in names such as Mikael), with Ia (two syllables as in Mikiah).

Jean Bottero[15] and many others[16] have suggested that Ia in this case is a West Semitic (Canaanite) way of saying Ea, Enki's Akkadian name. Ia (two syllables) is declined with the Semitic ending as Iahu and may have developed into the later form of Yahweh. Ia has also been confused with the Ugaritic Yamm (sea), (also called Judge Nahar, or Judge River) whose earlier name in at least one ancient source was Yaw, or Ya'a. Although both Ea and Yamm were water gods, Ea was the creator and representative of the sweet beneficent waters from below the earth, and as "Enki" was responsible for fertilising the earth itself.

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

Pffft, and people say Christian claims lack basis in fact. Gnosticism is total BS.They think they are in possession of some hidden knowledge when they make baseless suppositions based on a text that refutes their claims. Do I have proof that Ya'shuah was the messiah? No, the best record of Jerusalem at the time is the New Testament and it has to be taken at face value. The New Testament says Ya'shuah was the messiah and makes no mention of the altered appearance of Ya'shuah after Cavalry. As for your claim that the ressurection is a silly infantile idea, even going so far as to use the opinion of an atheist/formerly jewish scientist who obviously knew everything, Ya'shuah, in the event he was telling the truth, was the son of Yahweh and would have the ability to do something as silly as rise from the grave after being executed. How would Ya'shuah make allies with the Romans or the Pherasees? They hated him. Even if he managed to bribe the guards at Golgotha, they still speared him through his side. What a great job. Taken into account that Ya'shuah had holes in his hands and feet as well as a gaping spear wound in his side and there was no antiseptic at the time, how did he MIRACULOUSLY avoid infection? I believe the disciples might have mentioned it if Ya'shuah was pale, sickly, smelled terrible, and when they put their hands into his palms and side they came back covered in pus. Don't think they would have bought into the whole Messiah bit after that. At any rate, studying Ya'shuah's character should not lead one to believe that he would duck out of his responsibilities by faking his own death. If you're going to refute Christianity becuase you can't wrap your brain around the concept of a miracle, atleast refute it with science and evidence like the rabid gangs of militant atheists that roam the interwebz. This supposition is insulting to anyone who hasn't recieved a full frontal lobotomy.

reply to post by Soldier of God


And how many threads do you have showing "sound theology" and how many others here only rehash "theological truths" which are so illogical and distanced from reality that Little Red Ridinghood sounds more closer to the truth. I have never thanked God for someones' death, and certainly, I would never in my life accept gullible idiots who claims it was God's will. I'll say like the Angel of the Waters says in Revelation in responce to Jesjuah's sound Judgement:

The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You (Jesjuah) are righteous in judgment, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have judged in this manner; for they have shed the blood of holy men and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink and they deserve it."

Revelation 16:4ff

Think about that next time you attend Eucharist and a priest serves you the blood of our lord. I attend, I do, but I feel damned ashamed every time. Thinking how Jesjuah gave us this just before he was tortured. Since we shed his blood with our sins, Jesjuah gave us blood to drink, and his own corpus to eat.

Originally posted by kallisti36
The New Testament says Ya'shuah was the messiah and makes no mention of the altered appearance of Ya'shuah after Cavalry.

I am afraid you have to do your homework. None of his disciples recognised him after his "ressurection". Mary Magdalene believed he was the gardener. Kefas didn't believe what he saw. Doubting Tomas had to see his wounds and even put his fingers in them to believe it was Jesjuah who was standing before him. The two disciples at Emmaus, didn't recognise him and so on. He was obviously changed in his appearance. When I met him last time in a dream, he had short straight, black hair cut like a high priest.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


One might believe that the Jews adopted a Babylonian deity and began to worship him, but your claim that Yahweh may also have been a Canaanite deity is rubbish. After the Isrealites were enslaved in Egypt, the numerous tribes of Canaanites took up residence in the area. The Jews had no such interaction with them until they conquered Canaan and it would seem very unlikely, seeing as they already had a God, to adopt aspects of Canaanite deities who they regarded as false or lesser gods. Again with the supposition! Abraham and Enoch were in most respects Babylonian, they walked through Ur gazing up at the ziggurats and claimed there to be only one true god Yahweh. If you bothered to read the Book of Enoch you will find that Enoch's God is very different from Babylonian deities but there are tie-ins with the mythologies such as the flood and the Annunaki and the Grigori. According to Enoch, the Sumerian pantheon were made up of fallen angels who were corrupting mankind (it makes sense when you see that the Sumerians had gods for war and fertility and such that taught humanity the same things that Enoch claimed the fallen angels had taught mankind) and posing as gods. In this time humanity was allegedly in the presence of more present and less etherial deities and though Yahweh called out to his children they fell for the shiny Angels who were impregnating their women and making giants and demigods. A merciful creator of the universe would not show himself only to a small desert tribe and this can be seen in the similarities between religions. Yahweh spoke to everyone at a time, but they all fell for the jealous, imperfect, but shiny and less etherial Grigori. This is why Yahweh came to Abraham, to restore monotheism and to drive the false polytheistic religions of the Grigori from the world. Many people are confused about monotheism and believe that Yahweh is the only true deity and all else are imagined, I disagree, I believe Zeus, Sheba, Moloch, and the Sumerian pantheon were very real before Yahweh intervened. The bible even talks of other "gods" (it's in a certain psalm but the number eludes me), the point of monotheism is that Yahweh is supreme. So, why would you worship lesser creatures (lesser than humanity for that matter) like angels and demons? Your suppositions aren't even backed up by the archaelogical community, everything you are spouting is disinformation that can be refuted by anyone who knows the Bible and the Holy Spirit. "Oh look at all the God's and religions. They're all so many and confusing how could they possibly be true?" This is an old and flawed argument made by people who fail to think outside the box and make logical connections. To all believers I say to you: ignore these fools and do your own research.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


They did not recognize him, but they don't say why. The common interpretation is that they didn't recognize him because the idea of him coming back from the dead had not occured to them. Gnostics hold to this arrogant belief that because an interpretation is common it cannot possibly be true and they look for some "higher truth" to stoke their egos. Perhaps he allways looked as you describe him to be. The contemporary and common depiction of Jesus cannot possibly be true because he was Middle Eastern. Also, how do you know you are not being decieved by a demon? You claim the ressurection was improbable and infantile, but you speak of him coming to you in a dream as though it were of significance. How would an ordinary man, who shirked his duties of being a spiritual leader by faking his own death appearing to you in a dream be of any significance?

as far as i know. i respect God and Jesus.. and whom ever wanted to may a change for the positive and stand up for his people...and well becuz it was something in america everyone seems to be born into and raised around to..and we grow older..some either choose to embrace him and others only in need.. but back to the topic.. i dont think he staged hes own death.. he knew he had it coming..hes purpose to die for our sins..i think thats all bs..if before him we were punished for eating the apple or whatever...from then on we all our meant to sin..makes no sense for god to sacrifice one of his "people" to prove a point.. unless it was a sacrifice for another higher god above god..

reply to post by kallisti36


The Canaanites are the indignenous people who lived in Canaan when Abraham entered their land after having travelled out of Ur in Sumer. Ur or Owr means light in Hebrew, and the first thing God ordered was Light. And the word WORD is infact a derivate of Owr, as seen in Norse and other Germanic llanguages. It follows the lines of the Gospel of John that the Word was the Light. We are ancient Hebrews up here. The Nazis have no idea who they are.

reply to post by kallisti36


No they didn't say why. Only that would be obvious to anyone who has seen a mulla being stripped of his hair. Had Osama Bin Laden turned up with normal hair and beard noone would recognise him. It is the way we humans have develloped. Men needed the apeish way to hide ourselves. Women did it with makeup and dresses, just like Lawrence of Arabia.