Questions about the 9/11 Pentagon attack

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO


So the Pentagon and WTC 1 are exact same construction ? I didn't know that.

reply to post by Alfie1


I didn't know planes vanish after impacting walls, leaving intact walls, and then later on appear inside of buildings...lol you guys are the most classic ever...the reporters on the scene sure didn't see anything...and if you did i would like to know what hallucinogens you take that could help me see it too.

Originally posted by Alfie1
reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO

 

So the Pentagon and WTC 1 are exact same construction ? I didn't know that.

I can't help you if you refuse to use common sense in this thread.. If 757 plane flew into the pentagon, then there would be obvious damage that resembles the wings making contact against the building, just like the WTC1 and WTC2. It should also strike some curiosity why the Pentagon is refusing to show security camera footage of an actual plane attack.

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
I believe a cruise missile hit the pentagon, painted up to look like an AA jetliner. Flight 77 disappeared from the radar over West Virginia. As it got closer to DC, the air traffic controllers thought it was a military jet due to the maneuvers it was doing, something no 757 could do.

Dude tell me you're joking? A cruise missile painted to look like a jetliner? Do you know the size difference?

Originally posted by freedom12

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
I believe a cruise missile hit the pentagon, painted up to look like an AA jetliner. Flight 77 disappeared from the radar over West Virginia. As it got closer to DC, the air traffic controllers thought it was a military jet due to the maneuvers it was doing, something no 757 could do.

Dude tell me you're joking? A cruise missile painted to look like a jetliner? Do you know the size difference?

I dont think it was either missile or a jetliner... The footage of the attack shows the explosion going straight up, and the damage shows that the roof collapsed down.. Most likely, it was a bomb within the building.

A 757 diving down and leveling out just feet above the ground before making contact is something highly trained pilots couldnt do, let alone some shmuck who has barely enough training to fly a small plane.

reply to post by walman

We don't know what hit the Pentagon because there has not been any parts positively identified through parts numbers that belong to flight 77. As for pilots who positively identified it as the aircraft in question, at least one other pilot gave a different description and said it looked like a Global Hawk.

reply to post by Alfie1


ok Alfie lets just see what some pilots have said...based on info obtain by them under FOIA

According to Pilots for 911truth.org, "it's physically impossible for the plane [flight 77] to have caused the damage to the building [Pentagon]". It was never closer than 273 feet. It's time to reassess the famous blurry, inconclusive GIF animation of something 'scooting' across the Pentagon lawn at an altitude of about fifteen feet or even less --NOT 273 feet! The GIF shows a craft that was level as it struck. Flight data indicates that Flight 77 was not only not level at that point it was much too high. It would have had to descend from 273 feet and level to some 15 feet within less than a second. Such a maneuver is outside manufacturers specifications, simply, impossible in that aircraft.

NTSB Flight Data: Flight 77 Could Not Have Crashed into the Pentagon

please go and see what they say about a 757 flying complete outside it Envelope

Originally posted by weedwhacker

Yet another of the red herrings, and inconceivably idiotic falsehoods that still gets spread around...
The 'open'closed' status of the Flight Deck Door is NOT...I repeat, NOT a required parameter to be recorded by the FDR. It is an optional function, at the choosing of the specific airplane operator.

I think what you're struggling to say is that the FDR data is in reality silent as to whether the cockpit doors were opened during the flight. Hardly an 'idiotic falsehood' to suggest they were not, only that the evidence does not support any assertion on the matter.

Because, the NTSB is tasked with accident investigation for purposes of assigning cause...The cause of these crashes is well known.

This is a tautology. You determine the cause of an incident after an investigation, not before.

Between the two of us here, which one do you think is the airline pilot? (Hint...it's me). You might be referring to the type of control heads used on transponders in General Aviation type airplanes...but NOT on a Boeing jet.

My source is a pilot who flew 757s from 1998-2003. Several years ago he sent me this image, which he annotated.




May your pictures be a little too recent? Just a thought...

You contradicted yourself. Visually recognizing a 757....is not a "generic" type. See?
Simple: Only ONE AAL B-757 was missing.

Tautology again. All you're really saying is that since a 757 was picked up in the vicinity of where a similar plane had recently lost its transponder signal it must have been the same plane. That doesn't necessarily follow.

Thing is, in cases of individual parts that are NOT time-limited, or limited by number of cycles in service, "widget A" is identical to another "widget A"....they are identified by PART #.

Understood. I focused on the engine parts found because they are probably big enough and sufficiently intact to contain at least one time-limited component.

I hear a lot of comparisons made about the impact of the planes on the WTC and the impact of the plane on the Pentagon. One of the things I hear a lot of is about the size of the impact damage at the pentagon vs the size of the impact damage at the WTC (Tower 1 or 2)

The construction of these two buildings varied greatly. One was basically a tube with a center support (WTC) and the other is a traditional construction hardened with antiballistic features.

One of the greatest misconceptions I've observed is the drawing of a comparison between the size of the impact mark on the towers versus the size of the impact mark upon the pentagon. I think its important to remember that the Trade Towers were 208 feet wide and one side of the Pentagon is 921 feet wide. I think that 700 feet of extra material on the Pentagon would cause the impact area to seem smaller thanks to human perceptional incongruities.

The wingspan of a 757 is 124 feet and 10 inches. That means that if the plane had hit dead center on the side of either Tower 1 or 2 it would have left only 42 feet on each side of the impact free of initial impact damage; that also means that had the plane hit dead center on the Pentagon there would be 398.5 feet of area free of initial impact damage. It is important to note these perceptual issues when discussing the appearance of the impact areas.

Oh yes some more data about the mysterious flight 77.

On the morning of September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight 77 departed Dulles International Airport bound for Los Angeles at 8:20 am Eastern Time. According to reports and data, a hijacking took place between 08:50:54 and 08:54:11[1] in which the hijackers allegedly crashed the aircraft into the Pentagon at 09:37:45. Reported by CNN, according to Ted Olson, wife Barbara Olson had called him from the reported flight stating, "...all passengers and flight personnel, including the pilots, were herded to the back of the plane by armed hijackers..."[2]. However, according to Flight Data provided by the NTSB, the Flight Deck Door was never opened in flight. How were the hijackers able to gain access to the cockpit, remove the pilots, and navigate the aircraft to the Pentagon if the Flight Deck Door remained closed?[3]

Hijacking impossible

Interesting huh....the data provided by the NTSB the flight door was never opened....strange ocurrance to me...how about others.

reply to post by plube



Seems you didn't read my earlier post, on Page 1.

Pertinent part selected, and re-posted:

Originally posted by weedwhacker
I see someone is getting all their "information" from 9/11 'conspiracy' websites, who don't have, in most instances, the faintest clue.

Originally posted by winston_jones
It is true that a FDR was found, though it only confuses matters further. It's the one that shows that the cabin door was never opened during the flight.

Yet another of the red herrings, and inconceivably idiotic falsehoods that still gets spread around. (AND, I know the initial source of this nonsense, it's from that group that profess to be "pilots". Well, some are, but apparently anything they "think" they find as a "smoking gun" that later turns out to be false? Nah, don't post any corrections, just let the same wrong info fester....).

The 'open'closed' status of the Flight Deck Door is NOT...I repeat, NOT a required parameter to be recorded by the FDR. It is an optional function, at the choosing of the specific airplane operator.

(As proof, I could point you to the accident report of Egypt Air 990, for example. And many others I have read....when, in CVR transcripts, there is often mention of certain sounds picked up by the CAM, or "Cockpit Area Microphone". In many instances, there is a note such as "Sound of cockpit door operation" or, "Sound of cockpit door opening", etc. NOT a reference to the FDR information that would verify such status...BECAUSE, not airplanes have that feature!!)

Furthermore, the FDR records for anywhere between 20-30 hours total (depends on manufacturer, and date built, etc). It is patently ludicrous to believe that at NO TIME, in any previous flights, was the door never opened. That entire claim is baseless.

It is very, very "interesting", is it not, that although the "source" you linked, the so-called "Pilotsfor9/11Truth", upon being given the information outlined above, STILL have not taken it down from their website. Isn't that "strange", that they would allow INCORRECT and FALSE "information"...basically, let's call it what it is....a LIE remain up, and still on their pages?

Why do you suppose that is? (cough --- $$$ --- cough)....

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO

A 757 diving down and leveling out just feet above the ground before making contact is something highly trained pilots couldnt do, let alone some shmuck who has barely enough training to fly a small plane.

Go back to WWII - Japanese Kamikazeswho could barely fly (most were not taught how to land because not supposed to come back) flew their planes into ship off Okinawa. 30 ships were sunk, 300 more damaged

This is against a moving target and one that was shooting back......

reply to post by winston_jones


Thanbks for the chuckle....you were jokiing, right?? Tell me you were....

My source is a pilot who flew 757s from 1998-2003. Several years ago he sent me this image, which he annotated.




May your pictures be a little too recent? Just a thought...

Your "source" sent you THAT photo? And, what did your "source" say it was a photo of, exactly??
Could you do me a favor, and please actually READ my post, in its entirety?

(BTW...can't resist, because I CAN tell approximately what airplane it actually is. Been some time since I flew small airplanes. That, my friend, what you have there is a Single Engine Piper of some sort. Piston engine. I'm going to guess, a Warrior, or even a Cherokee. I don't see a manifold pressure gauge, no propeller control, just a throttle and mixture. There IS a carburetor heat control so we know it's not fuel injected. No gear lever, so it's not an Arrow....still, can't be certain of the EXACT model, but it is undoubtedly a Piper, and single engine, non-complex).

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Originally posted by walman

2.) What happened to Flight 77 and the people on it?

Maybe they are working on a top secret space ship project on some faraway island.

A partial list of the occupations of the flight 77 passangers.

a senior scientist with the US Navy, retired Army.

A third-generation physicist whose work at the Navy was so classified that his family knew very little about what he did each day. They don't even know exactly why he was headed to Los Angeles on the doomed American Airlines Flight

a Boeing engineer in Integrated Defense Systems; he served in the US Air Force for four years, and for the National Security Agency for 14 years.

a director of program management at Raytheon, US Army (ret.) who helped develop and build anti-radar technology for electronic warfare. Raytheon's website notes that they are leaders in every phase of the Precision Strike kill chain; are the world's leading organization at Missile Defense; provides state-of-the-art technology to detect, protect and respond to terrorism and provide Homeland Defense; and that their technology forms the eyes, ears and brains of Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance systems, from the Predator to the Global Hawk.

a retired naval aviator who worked for Veridian Corp., a defense contractor, who was working with military aircraft and weapons systems

A Navy test pilot who worked on the development of the F18. "He had done a number of black programs -- which means top-secret," said his son. "We were given no details."

an electrical engineer with defense contractor BAE Systems.

largest technical support supplier to the US Navy. BAE Systems is an industry leader in flight control systems, which are present on nearly every US military aircraft. BAE electronic warfare systems such as their jamming system are vital to the US Navy operations.

2 Boeing propulsion engineers: a lead Propulsion Engineer and a Project Manager with Boeing Satellite Systems,

a lead engineer for Boeing Satellite Systems.

a software architect with Lockheed Martin Corp., US Army (ret.).

A manager in the systems and software architecture department.

a Vice President for software development, EMSolutions and retired Lieutenant Commander, Navy. He spent 20 years in the US Navy, where he developed high capacity signal processors, multi-processor application software and innovative signal processing algorithms. EMSolutions maintains a facility security clearance, and has contracts with Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO) and BAE Systems.

a technical group manager at Xon Tech, a defense-related research and development firm. He previously worked as an engineer at the Naval Research Lab. Also a technical manager of Xon Tech

a retired Navy Rear Admiral, former Navy pilot, and retired American Airlines pilot.

a senior executive at the Defense Department.

A budget analyst/director of the programming and fiscal economics division who worked at the Pentagon.
a former Navy electronics technician worked as a Department of Defense contractor with Vrendenburg Co. in Washington

managing partner and co-founder of Stratin Consulting. and retired Marine Corps Lieutenant and Vietnam War veteran

a lawyer who had worked with the Navy Judge Advocate General's Corps.

and of course, there was Barbara Olson, attorney, CNN Commentator and wife of the United States Solicitor General.

911review.org...

The unusual passanger list of flight 77.

killtown.911review.org...

edit on 12-10-2010 by In nothing we trust because: (no reason given)

That list actually makes a lot of sense. I saw a video about the flight path of 77. They interviewed a dozen people that saw it, and it contradicted the OS. Including cops etc. They also came to the conclusion that the plane pulled up at the last second and kept flying afterwards, and what hit the building was a missle of some sort (which explains the punch hole and lack of plane evidence.

Someone needs to post that video up. It was definitely worth the watch.

Originally posted by weedwhacker

That, my friend, what you have there is a Single Engine Piper of some sort.

I have no idea. I'll take your word for it. The point was the transponder configuration. Can you confirm that your pictures depict a Boeing of the right vintage?

Originally posted by jessejamesxx

That list actually makes a lot of sense. I saw a video about the flight path of 77. They interviewed a dozen people that saw it, and it contradicted the OS. Including cops etc. They also came to the conclusion that the plane pulled up at the last second and kept flying afterwards, and what hit the building was a missle of some sort (which explains the punch hole and lack of plane evidence.

Someone needs to post that video up. It was definitely worth the watch.

...and from the angle that it approached, it would then fly over a busy highway, then a boat marina, then over Washington D.C. All without anyone on the planet seeing this retreating plane screaming a few hundred feet over their heads. Apparently in addition to developing super duper thermite that explodes AND melts steel, the conspirators have also discovered how to turn airplanes invisible.

...and they say the OS is too outlandish to accept. Of course.

reply to post by winston_jones

I think what you're struggling to say is that the FDR data is in reality silent as to whether the cockpit doors were opened during the flight. Hardly an 'idiotic falsehood' to suggest they were not, only that the evidence does not support any assertion on the matter.

I didn't "struggle" at all...just made sure I wrote it up as clearly, and precisely as I could, to prevent just such a response....seems I over-estimated you.

Let me have you put on your logic cap, again.

American 77 was hijacked. The access by the bad guys was ONLY through the Flight Deck Door.

It was opened. Else, no one could have gained access. It has been shown, beyond any doubt, that in that particular installation on American Airline's fleet of Boeing 757s (and likely, most of the rest of their fleet) that OPTIONAL parameter of the DFDR was not used, because it was not required by regulation, and was never considered to BE a needed function, by American Airlines, for any purpose whatsoever.

Following on, ignoring (for a moment) AAL 77's flight history....there were another 20 to 30 HOURS of data also recorded on the DFDR. All of the previous flights, when the engines were operating, from first engine start-up at point of departure, to engine shut-down upon arrival at destination. That is how they work. As long as the Main AC Buses are powered, the Flight Recorders operate. (Assuming, of course, that the circuit breakers have not been tripped --- "pulled", is how we describe it).

Long-haul, over five-hours-each flights across the country, from coast-to-coast. It is beyond ludicrous to attempt to "argue" that not ONCE, on any of those previous flights, did other crews take a lavatory break, or be provided food and beverage from the cabin....in FACT, per MOST airline pilots' working contracts (of course, I'm not privy to American's details, but they will no doubt be similar to ours) any flights with a length exceeding a set limit ---usually about three, to three and one half hours--- certainly FIVE qualifies, a "crew meal" is contractually mandated to be provided. We take our contracts VERY seriously, and take umbrage when they aren't followed properly.

Anecdotally, knowing how the typical airline flight attendants think, it is also commonplace (was, anyway) for 'something' food/beverage-wise to be offered just about the normal time we are leveling off at cruise, because, that's the timescale when the F/As are setting up their galleys, and BEFORE they get busy with passenger service, they usually will get the cockpit "out of the way" first. Given the light passenger loads on AAL 77, and others, this exact timeline could have been even sooner, as less prep-time is needed in the galley.

This habitual pattern is visible, to anyone who pays attention. We know it, because it's repeated, time and again, so often. AND, in the case of these sky piracy events, that moment of opportunity was taken advantage of, in order to gain access....the inattentive, routine and casual attitudes that prevailed, PRE-9/11.
Element of surprise.

BTW...just last year, in Europe, on KLM domestic. THEY are STILL too cavalier, in my opinion. I sat there, and watched just as we levelled off, watched the Flight Deck Door remain open for a good three minutes, unguarded..... and knew that it isn't like that anymore, in the U.S.

I am glad that you finally identify the steel as exploding and melting, it is truly hilarious that you cannot believe some kind of explosives with this power exist, and yet fully believe gravity is that capable...lol

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Watch the video, and reply intelligently, thanks =]

There were many reports & photographs of a 2nd plane in the area immediately after. Plus, everyone in the area, that was interviewed anyways (a dozen people), never actually saw the impact or the direct aftermath. They were all running for cover. 1 person ran outside directly after and saw 'another' plane 100 ft from the ground going in the same direction that the hypothetical 77 would've if it had pulled up.

And who knows, with that list of people on that plane, it wouldn't surprise me if the gov pulled out their handy dandy cloaking devices/warp speed that they've had for years and years

Originally posted by weedwhacker

there were another 20 to 30 HOURS of data also recorded on the DFDR.

Source please?