Men's-rights activists seek right to decline fatherhood in event of unplanned pregnancy

reply to post by Crimelab


"You cannot opt-out of child support until there is a child."

And yet men can still be sued over prenatal care.

"That happens about 40 weeks after the sex act."

I am aware as I am a Father was there for the whole thing..

"A woman is not opting out of child support by having an abortion. She is choosing for whatever reason to not continue a pregnancy. There is no child involved except in the fevered imaginations of "pro-lifers"."

Explain this...
www.nrlc.org...

"Sorry, women win all the way around on this one. The law is on their side"

And the law was on the side of the death camps in Germany too...

"and you still have to pay for whatever children you father."

Pay everyday...wish my sons mother would pay her child support.

"What I was also trying to point out in a round a bout way was that for most men's righters, the real issue isn't when a woman chooses to CONTINUE a pregnancy, they want the law applied in their skewed way so woman don't have a choice to END it. Which was my alluding to the fact that most "men's righters" are also "pro-lifers" when you get below the surface."

Can you provide proof of intent please?

Originally posted by joechip
reply to post by Crimelab

 

Well, since I posted OP, and the only other men's reproductive rights thread found on ats, I feel I should respond to this. I support abortion rights. I support safe-harbor laws. I have no interest in controlling any women, and my abiding interest has always been equality and freedom. I am an opponent of tyranny wherever I see it. You can't just assert that an argument is "straw man" and leave it at that. Pointing out the disparity between the sexes in a civil rights context is my only agenda in regards to this issue. Fairness in law is my only goal. Your argument holds no water, as there are others on this thread that are women, agree with the principles in the OP, and could be hardly said to be working a "straw-man" argument so that they can be better controlled by men. It's laughable.

I spent years debating abortion on alt.abortion back in the early 90's. I worked Clinic Defense during the Repug Convention in 92' when the Operation Rescue freaks were out in force and bombs were going off in clinics.

RARELY did I ever meet a pro-choice person, man or woman, that would entertain the fallacy of the "mens rights" argument. So, if you are such a person, you are definitely the exception to the rule. "Men's rights" has always been a red herring and a joke in the pro-life vs. pro-choice debate. Just because you might have stumbled across this "reasoning" on your own doesn't make that any less the case.

Women have a choice to end or continue a pregnancy. There is not a child yet to quibble about supporting financially. When and if that occurs (there is a child) is when that quibbling can commence. This argument is as old as the abortion debate. You aren't covering any new ground here.

Originally posted by Punisher75

"As said in previous post. As women were told "YOU picked the wrong man - - - so goes for men picking the wrong woman".

I am positive there have been situations where the woman went to full term and gave the child to the father.

You are correct this is why my son and I live in Florida and my sons mother and my ex-wife live in Ohio. Still waiting for the child support its only been 4 years.

Good Luck! In 16 years my daughter has received one check for $35.

Speaking of "wallets" - - yeah - at 64 years I might be thinking of retirement - - if I hadn't supported my daughter and grandson since his birth. She is a hard worker - been working since she was 13 - - - but its hard and expensive to make sure kids get everything they need. And this is Arizona where the schools suck - - so I insisted he go to a private school which I helped pay for.

Now I'm raising my 2 year old grandson - - but his dad died of Leukemia before his son was a month old. He was so happy to be a dad - - and would have been a great dad. He didn't have a choice.

reply to post by Crimelab


It would seem to me that YOU are the one actually making a "straw-man" argument, here. Here's the definition:

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

en.wikipedia.org...
As you have failed to even debate the issue, but rather attempted to misrepresent your opponents position, indeed you have put you foot in it, making that charge.
Also, I didn't "stumble" onto anything. I have come to my own conclusions, based on my own reasoning, which seem to me self-evident. I was actually surprised to see a case like the one in the OP. I think you lack the intellectual honesty that I personally require to bother debating someone. Do not be surprised if I fail to respond to further posts of yours. Good day.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Punisher75

"As said in previous post. As women were told "YOU picked the wrong man - - - so goes for men picking the wrong woman".

I am positive there have been situations where the woman went to full term and gave the child to the father.

You are correct this is why my son and I live in Florida and my sons mother and my ex-wife live in Ohio. Still waiting for the child support its only been 4 years.

Good Luck! In 16 years my daughter has received one check for $35.

Speaking of "wallets" - - yeah - at 64 years I might be thinking of retirement - - if I hadn't supported my daughter and grandson since his birth. She is a hard worker - been working since she was 13 - - - but its hard and expensive to make sure kids get everything they need. And this is Arizona where the schools suck - - so I insisted he go to a private school which I helped pay for.

Now I'm raising my 2 year old grandson - - but his dad died of Leukemia before his son was a month old. He was so happy to be a dad - - and would have been a great dad. He didn't have a choice.

edit on 18-9-2010 by Annee because: QUOTES

LOL No kidding my ex wife was court ordered to pay 30 bucks a week. Nevermind she has a bachelors degree, they decided she should pay based on a part time job she had at win dixie, not the job she got shortly after the divorce. I am sorry you are needing to raise your grandson. I hope you worked something out with the surviving parent.

Originally posted by Unity_99
The first trimester is the only one where this decision should be made and I'm spiritual not religious, but was raised on science articles all my life.

If the "male abortionists" have their way, far more abortions will be performed in the second trimester, after the man has had time to make up his mind.
This is not only more disturbing ethically, but it becomes a major operation requiring hospitalisation. It's more dangerous to the mother, more expensive, and it's much harder to find a doctor who will perform it.

However the issue of aborting has nothing to do with a father thinking he may ignore the reality of his own child who is born and exists and whose rights should trump both his parents.

Exactly.

Aborting a foetus does not equal denying Fatherhood.

A child needs a father and the fact that some women get abortions is irrelevant, as the two things are not the same. The is no "male abortion" unless the male is causing the death of the embyo/foetus, and that's kinda frowned upon if it's forced upon the mother.

Perhaps some people, never having given birth, are confused by the phrase, "a bun in the oven," and think abortion is as simple as taking a bun out of the oven again.

Originally posted by Punisher75

LOL No kidding my ex wife was court ordered to pay 30 bucks a week. Nevermind she has a bachelors degree, they decided she should pay based on a part time job she had at win dixie, not the job she got shortly after the divorce. I am sorry you are needing to raise your grandson. I hope you worked something out with the surviving parent.

My other daughter is the surviving parent. He died before signing any paperwork (its complicated).

We have held off getting any DNA tests - - because his mother is Wacko. She would love to parade him around like a trophy to her friends - - - but is not willing to help unless there are strings attached.

So again - - no outside support.

@hotbakedtater

A man does have the right to walk away from an unwanted pregnancy.

Are you being Ignorant on Purpose, or is it Accidental?


@Unity_99
Women have more Rights (As they would call it) than men do.

The Feminist answer to the "Equality" problem... has always been, getting men to be Enslaved to women.


I mean, look at this topic.

How many different ways can you spell out a simple 1+1 equation, before you realize that they WILL NOT UNDERSTAND Logic?



Men in the western World are "Circumsized" at birth.... removing the "Just a Flap of useless skin" (that just happens to contain the densest nerve clusters on the entire penis.)

In other nations, when they preform this operation on WOMEN, it is labeled "Genital Mutilation."


But here in the Civilized US of A... it is called, "A Standard Sanitary Practice"


Women can Vote for who is going to be President...

But if they Elect a "War President"... they will not be Drafted.



These little, tiny... inconsistancies, lead me to believe that Feminists themselves do not understand what words mean.


And then it hit me.


They DON'T.


They pretend to.... but they understand words as "Feelings" as opposed to concepts.





This is why it is so difficult for them to grasp the inherent dichotomy between the Reproductive Rights of Women... and the Reproductive Duties of Men.


Namely.... Women can be as irresponsible as they want... and there are *NO REPERCUSSIONS*



Society used to condemn this sort of behavior.... but now... it is Glamorized in the Media.



As if this is the way that human females are SUPPOSED to act.




You see...... I have become Aware, that there are those who will argue this topic, and they don't really want to make a point.

They don't want to discuss.


They want to point fingers, and Shun, and Blame, and Ridicule, and attempt to Humiliate with "Not a Real Man" tripe that is ALSO peddled all over the television nowadays....



Women are not the Arbiters of what Constitutes Real men.

Heck.... More than HALF of them spend most of their time COMPLAINING about their inability to select a decent partner.


And yet they claim to be a good judge of character, and "Man-ness"



It's tragic in its unwashed stupidity.


@hotbakedtater

I don't know. I don't make the rules I just play by them.

It's all just magic to you, isn't it?

@Annee

What cracks me up about the Feminist rants - - - is Empowered Women are attracted to Empowered Men.

And what do you mean by "Empowered"?

OR are you using the word more for its EMOTIONAL appeal, instead of it's specific meaning?

The last thing a Feminist wants is an insecure man - - one who feels threatened by an Empowered Woman.

Pay close attention, class...

Whenever one of the "Boys" steps out of line, the warden tries to keep us in check by using shaming language such as this.

"Only a Real man can Handle a Real Woman"

Or some such garbage, that has absolutley no meaning....



No, seriously...

Anne.

What do you mean by an "Empowered" woman?

Do you just mean a woman who feels free to sleep around?

-Edrick

reply to post by Annee

Have you noticed in this discussion the Prominence of the Man's Wallet?

I'm not really seeing Love for the Child that much.

Women kill unborn children By the Millions.

And yet you claim the moral High ground.


You just lost women a WHOLE BUNCH of credibility.

-Edrick

reply to post by hotbakedtater

Semantics. A woman is exercising her reproductive right to a safe or legal abortion by the act of choosing it.

Rights and choices can be comutual.

That is not what "Rights" are, or Mean.


You do not understand the concept of Rights, and you think that killing a child is a Right.


This is why you fail.

-Edrick

reply to post by mayertuck


Abortion is a personal choice, and its a hard choice to make. Its not as easy as most people think! Its bad enough people look down on it already! And if its SOOOOOO bad and horrible, then why add just another excuse for women to do it? Such as "The father declining his financial responisiblity"....or an other words being just lazy!

reply to post by StarrGazer25

And if its SOOOOOO bad and horrible, then why add just another excuse for women to do it?

Excuse?

You really think they need an Excuse to get an abortion?

They are doing it as a form of Birth Control now....

Girls using abortion as birth control and having up to FOUR terminations by the age of 18
www.dailymail.co.uk...

-Edrick

reply to post by Annee


I think I follow your meaning on the signing paperwork thing, and it being complicated.

Originally posted by Edrick

Anne.

What do you mean by an "Empowered" woman?

Do you just mean a woman who feels free to sleep around?

-Edrick

Dude - - I've been in these type discussions with you before.

You have issues - - I'll pass on discussion with you. Thanks.

Originally posted by Edrick
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

Semantics. A woman is exercising her reproductive right to a safe or legal abortion by the act of choosing it.

Rights and choices can be comutual.

That is not what "Rights" are, or Mean.


You do not understand the concept of Rights, and you think that killing a child is a Right.


This is why you fail.

-Edrick

Reading comprehension helps, please point out this failure. Do you know what comutual means? And I did not define the concept WHO did.

reply to post by Edrick


Sir you need to get off your high horse!! There is no EQUALITY and never will be, and how dare you try to dumb down my gender...let me guess, your an older man who thinks he knows all just because you have a penis right? Ur the type of man that probably thinks that women should be seen and not heard right? OR that we belong in the kitchen and NOT in the work force.
Well it has been scientifically proven that women mature faster then boys ( We all know this) and with the maturity level also comes a higher level of comprehension at younger age no less!....so please dont insult women by saying we dont use logic. Nature has a funny way of evening itself out, while men are stronger physically, women are stronger mentally. And yes we might vote for a war time president, but since we are still considered a minority Im sure there were plenty of men who also would vote for that president if elected. See, wheather we like it or not (WE BEING A SOCIETY AS A WHOLE) LIFE is not fair. MEN will always be paid more, even if the women has a higher education, Men can sleep with multiple partners and would not have to live with the scrutiny that women do. And yes women make mistakes, WE ARE NOT PERFECT, no one is, and YES we might for get to take our pill, Something a man doesnt have to worry about, and we could get pregnant, if the woman makes the choice to have an aborition she is taking responsibility for her actions and it is costly on her soul!! While the man gets to live guilt free! She is also then putting herself in danger for a botched operation which she could possibly die from, Something a man NEVER has to worry about....and if she chooses to keep the child you HONESTLY believe the man should ALSO have the choice to walk away completely and financially? Oh thats real good sir, lets turn our young boys into irresponsible, selfish , egotistical animals with no remorse or compassion for anyone but themselves, they are literally getting away with MURDER and they dont have to bear the cross!! While we women have to carry all of these burdens on our own!??!?!?!?!? ARE U KIDDING ME SIR?! ...... Yea... your comprehension is way down on the scale...

Originally posted by Punisher75
reply to post by Annee

 

I think I follow your meaning on the signing paperwork thing, and it being complicated.

Proving DNA of a dead person is not easy. However - the complications of not being married had connections to the Iraq war.

reply to post by Annee


So, am I to understand that your "Empowered" concept had no actual definition, and was being used for it's emotional appeal,

AmiRite?

Thought so.

-Edrick

reply to post by hotbakedtater

Reading comprehension helps, please point out this failure. Do you know what comutual means? And I did not define the concept WHO did.

No... Honestly.

What do you think "Rights" are?

-Edrick (Breathless with anticipation)

reply to post by Edrick


And how do you know its being used as a form of birth control?? Have you been doing surveys? Have you conducted any real and factual studies on this subject? Probably not, so you cant say that with any fact. Secondly sir, I hope you have a good job and pay LOTS AND LOTS of taxes, because if all these women keep their "Unwanted pregnancies" and the men do have the choice of walking away physically and financially, we shall see how high the welfare system goes! So I dont want to hear ANY B*TCHING coming out of your mouth about the welfare system! People like you kill me... you sit there and complain about people "ABUSING" the system and then sit there and contradict yourselves by saying aboritions should be illegal..... you cant have your cake and eat it too!