So, ATS, Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

I still have not seen anyone defending the rights of the man in the abortion issue. Don't men have a say in whether or not their unborn children are aborted? I understand that it's a woman's body but the man contributed 50% of the goods to create that child. What if the man wants the child but the mother doesn't?

Also, I find it funny that many of you believe tptb are trying to control the population through many different ways...but abortion is ok in many of your eyes! I think we are too caught up in the political ramifications rather than the common sense of the issue.

I'm pro-choice, but if I helped create that life then I get equal say in it's being regardless of it's current home (that's 50% of my genetic material). A woman has rights to her own body but let's remember it takes two to create life and I think that should be taken into account... it rarely does.
For me the reason(s) that are absolutely forgivable as far as abortion goes is rape. I could not imagine carrying the reminder of a savage crime against you.

reply to post by brutalsun


I can agree. It seems the people use the exceptions (rape, incest, etc) as a means to justify the norm, which is abortion due to poor choices.


[edit on 8-9-2010 by sheepslayer247]

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
I still have not seen anyone defending the rights of the man in the abortion issue. Don't men have a say in whether or not their unborn children are aborted?

What women have been told for ions when a man dumps them because they get pregnant is: Its your fault for picking the wrong man.

So that's what I'm going with.

I'm sure there have been women who have gone full term and signed over the baby to the father. I would say that man picked the right woman for him.

The Choice belongs to the woman.

I suppose "turnabout is fair play" & "two wrongs don't make a right" - - - might apply. But women have suffered the brunt since the beginning of time - - - its hard for me to be sympathetic to men in this area.

reply to post by sheepslayer247

I still have not seen anyone defending the rights of the man in the abortion issue. Don't men have a say in whether or not their unborn children are aborted? I understand that it's a woman's body but the man contributed 50% of the goods to create that child. What if the man wants the child but the mother doesn't?

They certainly have a say in a correct relationship, but the ultimate decision lies on the woman, because the issue evidently affects her more.

reply to post by Annee

What you say is true. When a woman becomes pregnant and the man leaves, we point fingers at the woman and call her some very mean things. But is that the kind of thinking we should use to justify abortion?

We are talking about a human life here, not a personal choice to eliviate ridicule and blame. I have been called many things in my life that shook me to the core, but I would not think to kill another being to stop those mean things from being said.

I have not heard one argument that justifies this barbaric practice.

Originally posted by Maslo

They certainly have a say in a correct relationship, but the ultimate decision lies on the woman, because the issue evidently affects her more.

Yes - - I guarantee you if men were the ones who got pregnant and had to go through all the stuff that goes along with it - - - we would not be having this discussion.

Not only does it whack your hormones to hell - - mess up your body - - the dizziness - the throwing up - overheating - swelling - lack of sleep - painful boobs - pressure on bladder - pain in delivery - etc.

There's - how to cope on your job. Can you continue on the level you were before pregnancy. Does your job offer "lighter" work. Does it threaten advancements. Does the increased bathroom visits get the scorn of your boss. What if there are complications and you have to take off a lot of days. What if the baby is a preemie. How are you going to feel leaving a preemie baby with a sitter when your allotted off time is up. What about night feedings. Are you going to be able to do your job with minimal sleep.

. . . and that's just the minimal basics.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
I still have not seen anyone defending the rights of the man in the abortion issue. Don't men have a say in whether or not their unborn children are aborted? I understand that it's a woman's body but the man contributed 50% of the goods to create that child. What if the man wants the child but the mother doesn't?

You're quite wrong there. The man does not contribute "50% of the goods to create that child".
He contributes 1/2 the initial DNA. However each cell also contains mitochondria, which moderates the function of the DNA. ALL of the mitochondria are inherited directly from the mother.

As the cells divide they need a source for their building materials. All of the nutrients required are sourced from the mother.

A growing foetus is a parasitic organism, in that it draws all its nutrients from the mother, and leaves the mother having to deal with all the toxins this parasite creates. In addition the mother's body has to cope with the physical effects of this growing organism pressing on her organs and disrupting their function.

And how is the father's body affected?
It isn't.

Have you ever seen a woman with severe eclampsia? I nearly died of it during my first pregnancy. However the baby's father never saw it either. He was off drinking and screwing the girl next door while I was trying to earn money, despite my growing illness, to survive.

Next we have childbirth, still a cause of fatalities, even in America. What guy experiences this? Yet guys like you think they are contributing half of the baby .....
My first birth was so traumatic it took a doctor four hours to sew me up inside afterwards. During my second birth I had to choose between my baby's life and my own, when his heartbeat had stopped and my cervix had still not begun to open, despite 8 hours of hard labour and a 3 week overdue pregnancy, and I was told to push him out or he'd die. Being a mother I pushed through the agony and my uterus split so badly it was then like watching a fire-hose spraying the wall my stirruped feet were pointing to with thick, pulsing jets of blood. And all the bloody awful doctor could think about was how to blame my death, which he considered inevitable, onto the nurse present.

Luckily I was a cyclist, training hard for racing, and could survive almost anything.

Now I've covered the easy parts, there's the actual mothering to consider. I had to give up my studies for my first child, but had gone back to school and qualified to study medicine when I became pregnant with my second. And I found bike racing easy, had found a sponsor, and was training to compete in the olympics. All this had to be given up because my son was born disabled, and took constant care to keep alive. My unhelpful husband left 2 years later when our second son was born with autism. He was free to, but could I up and leave on a whim?

Now my handicapped son, (I don't consider autism a handicap by comparison,) is 31 and I am still, despite being ill with a serious heart/kidney problem, having to provide constant care for him, with no help from anyone.

Of course there is another side to it. I adore all three of my children, and now, as adults, they are wonderful friends. I can't imagine life without them. However having them, particularly with their handicaps and me being left on my own with them, has left me struggling financially all my life, unable to achieve any of my dreams, unable to make friendships, and a social leper in the eyes of many.

And, while not wanting to whine, never having "disposable income," and living with the scorn of much of society, as well as being constantly tired from the strain of being sole carer ... it can be very depressing.

So, while I do not regret my choices, I have the utmost scorn for anyone who wants to take away a woman's right to choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy.

Also, I find it funny that many of you believe tptb are trying to control the population through many different ways...but abortion is ok in many of your eyes! I think we are too caught up in the political ramifications rather than the common sense of the issue.

This world has too many people in it.
This is a problem for which there is a proven solution; educate women and the birth rate drops.

Now some people think, with some good evidence on their side, TPTB are up to dirty tricks, using enforced sterilisation or starvation to lower the population.
There is a big difference between doing this and letting a woman have responsibility for her own body.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by Annee

 

What you say is true. When a woman becomes pregnant and the man leaves, we point fingers at the woman and call her some very mean things. But is that the kind of thinking we should use to justify abortion?

My 1st pregnancy was a 4th month miscarriage.
My 2nd and 3rd produced healthy daughters
My 4th was an abortion.

I definitely qualify having an opinion on this subject.

What do you mean by justify abortion? Have you ever been in the position to make that decision? Because I guarantee you - no matter what you think now - you do not know what decision you will make when facing it.

This is about Right of Choice - - not anti or pro abortion. Your personal belief has nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by HomeBrew
This one for me is simple, I'm pro life. However, this is my 'choice' and would not attempt to put my belief(s) on anyone else. If someone else is pro choice, thats there decision and I can respect that.

this makes zero sense. this means you are pro choice

you allow people to make their own choice, even though you wouldn't be for the abortion of your own

I am in the same position, pro choice.

reply to post by Annee


Who gave you the "right of choice" to end an innocent human's life? And don't say "the US Supreme Court", they are NOT a moral authority.

Last time I checked God said "Thou shalt not murder."

reply to post by Kailassa


I admire you for your ability to work through those issues, and still care for your children. I do not seek to stop anyone from making their own choices. The entire path that leads to abortion is one of choices. The choices we make up to that point dictate whether or not abortion will ever become an option. So even if I believe that abortion is wrong, and it is made illeagal, you are still able to freely make the choice that gets you pregnant or not.

I think we are forgetting that important point. Abortion is the end result of poor choices. The exception being cases of illness, danger to the mother or baby, etc. I am not completely black/white on this issue. But the vast majority of abortions are due to poor choices, not medical issues.

Again, I thank you for enduring such hardship and still being the mother you are.

reply to post by Annee

I have been in the position to either abort a child or not. I may not be a woman but my wife and I had our first child under very poor circumstances. Abortion would have made life much easier...but we chose to have the child and it was the best thing that ever happened to us. I COULD NOT run away from my responsability just because it was not the best time for me or my wife. To us, thats not how it worked.

So yes, I have been in the situation to make that choice. We made that choice together, as the man and woman that created the child.

I've often thought that if the two sides of the debate were called "anti-choice" and "anti-life" instead, it would be a very different debate.

reply to post by dreamwarder


Similar train of thought as mine.

I've always felt it to be more of pro or anti woman, not life.

Originally posted by Kailassa

This world has too many people in it.

This is a problem for which there is a proven solution; educate women and the birth rate drops.

Thank you for your very informative post.

My hobby is social anthropology. Did you know in cultures where the woman is dominate - - the birth rate is lower?

Originally posted by dreamwarder
I've often thought that if the two sides of the debate were called "anti-choice" and "anti-life" instead, it would be a very different debate.

What and how exactly do you determine Life?

Originally posted by TokiTheDestroyer
I've always felt it to be more of pro or anti woman, not life.

Which is of course a pro-choice perspective on the question, as any pro-lifer clearly does not look at the problem that way.

You may have inadvertently highlighted the reason the abortion debate goes nowhere. Two entirely different frames of reference. Pro-choicers see the issue from the standpoint of the woman; pro-lifers from the standpoint of the fetus. And they are usually oblivious to the standpoint of the other side (willfully or otherwise).

Which might explain why abortion debates usually look like two groups of people screaming their heads off at brick walls rather than an actual conversation.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by Annee

 

I have been in the position to either abort a child or not. I may not be a woman but my wife and I had our first child under very poor circumstances. Abortion would have made life much easier...but we chose to have the child and it was the best thing that ever happened to us. I COULD NOT run away from my responsibility just because it was not the best time for me or my wife. To us, that's not how it worked.

So yes, I have been in the situation to make that choice. We made that choice together, as the man and woman that created the child.

And I chose to have the 2 daughters I have.

And I chose to abort the 4th pregnancy because of those 2 daughters. I was soon to be a single mother of 2. It was their welfare that made me make the decision I did.

I could not run away from my responsibility of 2 living children.

I would not even thought of aborting a child in the situation you describe. I would not have had to make a choice - - because it wouldn't have occurred to me - not to have the baby.

reply to post by NewlyAwakened


And you, my friend, have hit the proverbial nail on the head.