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Originally posted by JR MacBeth
I haven't given up on you ANOK. Since you are a self-proclaimed communist, it probably is bothersome to say the least, when we look out upon a "communist" world, that prefers to hide behind other names.
Libertarian Socialism is a term essentially synonymous with the word "Anarchism". Anarchy, strictly meaning "without rulers" [not without 'leaders' ANOK], leads one to wonder what sort of system would exist in place of one without state or capitalist masters... the answer being a radically democratic society while preserving the maximal amount of individual liberty and freedom possible.
It's especially frustrating if you feel like it should be otherwise. You have made it clear that you think that all nations are "capitalist" today, regardless of popular impressions. I'm not sure there is exactly total disagreement here, although you seem to have taken it that way.
Ten Planks of Communism: Already Here in America
So often Russia is described at having tried 'socialism.' Russia under Lenin, Stalin and the rest is usually described as socialist or communist by the media. Yet, as these extracts from our British-based journal, The Socialist Standard, argue, Russia was never socialist…
You may remember when the world was divided between communism and capitalism, and when the Chinese were communists. The Chinese still call themselves communists, but now they�re also capitalists.
In fact, visit China today and you find the most dynamic capitalist nation in the world. In 2005, it had the distinction of being the world�s fastest-growing major economy.
Originally posted by ANOK
Originally posted by JR MacBeth
I haven't given up on you ANOK. Since you are a self-proclaimed communist, it probably is bothersome to say the least, when we look out upon a "communist" world, that prefers to hide behind other names.
Oh jeez, I am not a self-proclaimed communist, please point out where I said that?
I consider myself a Libertarian Socialist.
OK prove to me all countries are NOT capitalist.
Go ahead show me ONE country that has a worker controlled economic system (socialism). Or one country that has no economy and everything is shared and owned equally (communism).
Popular impressions don't count, the point I keep trying to make.
Popular impression is more often than not wrong and comes from misinterpretation.
It is propaganda when they try to tell you that other countries are not capitalists because they want you to think capitalism means freedom, when it has nothing to do with it.
Ten Planks of Communism: Already Here in America
That link is BS. Do you even check your sources? Forest Glen Durland is a CEO, oh no he isn't biased with an agenda. You really need to tell when something is true and when it's agenda driven. They are not talking about communism, once again they are talking about the culture of another country, that your state system uses to make you think that communism is bad, when it isn't communism to begin with.
nothing wrong with being a socialist, no matter how much your state system likes to demonize us.
Give up on me lol? I should be the one leaving you to wallow in your smug ignorance.
Originally posted by JR MacBeth
OK, I'll point it out, but you're not going to like it...
I'm sorry you have decided that those who disagree with you are ignorant (and in my case, smug too). However, regardless of your purely academic pursuit of "anarchy" (seriously, you sure you want to admit this?), regardless, here is the truth of it:
Communism = Socialism
I'm sure you are correct that I am ignorant, probably of many things, however, I'm somewhat surprised that you don't know that communism, and socialism, WERE originally considered IDENTICAL by mutual agreement of their creators, Marx and Engels, who used these terms interchangeably, in a large amount of correspondence between them (still available today by the way).
Lest you jump up and down (again) about "definitions" (always of the past, or out of your old dictionary), notice, I intentionally retained the past tense ("were"). Today, by general consent, "socialism" is popularly considered in contrast to "communism", which fairly (or unfairly) became equated with totalitarian regimes.
OR, should we just be honest here with our definitions, and continue to use communism, and socialism, interchangeably? Obviously, I'm OK with that!
Why? Who is saying otherwise? Straw-man tactics here?
You have made it clear that you think that all nations are "capitalist" today, regardless of popular impressions. I'm not sure there is exactly total disagreement here, although you seem to have taken it that way.
Oh dear, guess you wrote that back when you still thought there was a difference. I know, that sounded smug, sorry. For the record, I want to point out that I think you just misspoke here, when you said something about a country "with no economy" (no such thing of course). But again, I don't think you actually meant that.
Uh...well (as Reagan used to say), I guess they only count when you want them to count??
THANK YOU!
The old straw-man again. Does anyone think this? "Capitalism means freedom"? Sheesh. You accused me along with soficrow, and both of us already refuted the absurdity.
[
Uh...well. Two things here. First, the link is to the Ten Planks of Communism, as given to us by Karl Marx, not some guy named Durland! Honestly, you're a communist, and you have never heard of the famous 10 planks?
These are instead not "planks of communism" but characteristics of socialism from a Marxist perspective.
Originally posted by kowalskil
How to distinguish a Marxist from a non-Marxist? Everyone who believes that the proletarian dictatorship is needed, after the overthrow of capitalism, to improve social conditions, is a Marxist. The idea of proletarian dictatorship unites all kinds of communists, Stalinists, Trotskyites, Leninists, etc. Anarchists, are not Marxists because they are against any form of state (capitalist and socialist). But all communists are Marxists and all Marxists are communists. These social engineers, like Bolsheviks in the Soviet Union, form parties that are said to be "the vanguards of proletariat."
Failure of Bolsheviks, the disintegration of the Soviet Union, is a very powerful arguments against Marxs' idea of proletarian dictatorship. That is what I think.
Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice... Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality...Mikhail Bakunin, known as the father of Anarchism
Originally posted by ANOK
Capitalism is an economic system that can not work without a state system to protect the private ownership of the means of production and the privileges it brings.
Real Libertarians celebrate the individual and do NOT, could NOT, would NOT support corporate government.
Originally posted by chuckpc
reply to post by ANOK
You are a little misguided. In fact there are no Marxist govenments, There never has been. Marxism is a myth.
Read the Communist manifesto, It is all of like 100 pages. Marxism is the idea that all weath, all goods, all care and all education is spred eveny and to the betterment of the entire population. The only place I know of that comes close to this is a Hippy Commune. A state must collect, count, evaluate and disperarse the poulation income. Once the population becomes large enough the good of all is no longer clear and the state begins to either make decision for the people(Dictatorship) or vote on the correct action (Democracy).
Imagine a small Marxist island on side has rich soil the other has fossil fuel supplies. Who and how is it decided that research dollars will be spent on agricultur and not mining. In a true Marxist society it would be equal, however equal may not be equitable because mining reseaxh is more expensive than farming reserch.
I learned that from Civ II