If the confederacy would have WON!!

reply to post by maybereal11


I think this is great. It shows that people still miss a simple point. The north is more segregated than the south. Northern magistrates and citizens routinely kidnapped and sold free blacks in to slavery. In the north zoning laws were passed to keep blacks out of neighborhoods. Realtors and bankers conspired to ensure that blacks could not get loans to buy homes in other neighborhoods.

Before the Civil War blacks couldn't even move in to certain northern states with out papers proving they were free. Even then they would have to post "bond" money incase the local constabulary ever had to defend a claim against the person's freedom.

I think I'll let the census tell the story one more time though.

As of 2000

The top ten most segregated large metropolitan areas were in the older Northeast-Midwest “Rust Belt,” which has tended to lose
population in recent decades. All but one of the least segregated
large metropolitan areas were in the West and South, where metropolitan
areas have tended to gain population.

Jim Crow Moves North

But, as in the Jim Crow south, what the law required and what actually occurred could be very different things, and thanks to the efforts of local school boards, by the turn of the century northern (and western) schools were, in practice, much less integrated than many had hoped, and black children had gained fairly modest improvement in their access to education, although they had made gains. And again, as in the South, whatever burst of Reconstruction reform efforts there may [*147] have been faded quickly, for by the 1930s northern schools were actually more segregated than they had been at the turn of the century. Not until the 1940s and early 1950s – thanks to the black migration north and the attendant changes in the electoral landscape, the powerful new claims for equality made by black war veterans, and the dogged activism of the NAACP – did the explicit exclusion of blacks from public schools and their segregation in them come to an end. Still, because of the residential segregation patterns that had been fostered throughout the century, in 1954 more black children in the north attended segregated schools than at any time before. That would not end with BROWN but would, instead, continue to grow worse.

Douglas concerns himself with events prior to 1954, but I nonetheless wonder what he would make of the continued de facto segregation of schools in the north today. I suspect this history could shed light on contemporary questions. It was striking, for example, to read Douglas’ description of segregated schools for black children, when communities in the antebellum north were able to erect them at all. They were often cold, dark, dirty, dilapidated, and overcrowded sites in which the expectations of students were low and little real education occurred: more recent laments on the awful conditions in which our poorest children are expected to be taught today echo throughout these pages. The teachers in those black schools were typically paid substantially less than those in white ones, and the least qualified tended to concentrate there as a result.

Time Magazine 1970

Unlike Southern school segregation, which is the result of official policy, segregation in the North is less purposeful and harder to correct. In most cities, segregation came about accidentally, only to be perpetuated deliberately. In Chicago, where educational separation is the result of segregated housing patterns, whites have voted down repeated attempts to achieve desegregation by pairing schools or redrawing district lines to break down ghetto walls. In Boston, the insistence of local whites on maintaining "neighborhood schools" and their refusal to approve even intracity busing programs have helped keep schools in white areas white, those in black areas black. In Pasadena, Calif., and Waterbury, Conn., both of which have been sued by the Justice Department, school officials are believed to have carefully gerrymandered district lines to maintain segregation in city schools.

We can't talk about that though. We have to keep hammering at the stereotype of the evil south. The boogie man of the south is just a way for northerners to deflect attention from their own misdeeds over the years.

If the confederacy had won....

We'd have DAR conventions in New Jersey.

We'd fly confederate flags in Times Square.

Ladies gloves would still be a wardrobe staple.

And window drapes would be made from reversible fabrics. (just in case)

reply to post by xstealth


Yes indeed, Slavery is hideous and an abomination. Me thinks that slavery wasn't the real reason for the war. The latter is rather mainstream thought now so I don't feel that is necessay to delve into it. But think of it from this perspective...several states voted to secede from the Union. It was the will of the people. The Federal government crushed the will of the southern people by tremendous violence. Slavery was utilized as a tool to demonize the common enemy identified by the Federal government. The same thing is in action today regarding Iran. Suddenly we are seeing news articles of a poor woman convicted of adultery in Iran, she was to be executed by stoning. Hideous and horrible yes, but this news and news like are being used as part of the program upon the psyche of Americans to demonize the Iranians. See the program and step out of the Matrix! Free yourself!

[edit on 9-7-2010 by Klaatumagnum]

reply to post by MikeNice81


I was hoping that some participant might broach the subject of a conspiracy theory concerning the fact that Dr. King was not assassinated until after he shifted focus to racism in the North and suggested that the people of Appalachia be included in efforts to gain equality.
I'd do so myself, but I'm far from technically savvy, as my stereotype suggests.

Originally posted by Baloney

If the confederates won we would be living in the bronze age today. For one thing, Women still wouldnt be allowed to vote yet.

Those folks aint right.

And there would only be ONE party called the... Republicans... YIKESS!!! They would expect us all to call them MASTER or else be sentenced to public hanging.

This thread makes for SCARY thought INDEED!!!!!!!



[edit on 7-7-2010 by Baloney]

Abe Lincoln was a Republican.
Second line.

I breezed through the thread, did not see any reference to Spike Lee's movie about what if the South had won the war!

It was a mockumentary called: CSA- The Confederate States of America




It was interesting and I would recommend watching it.

reply to post by butcherguy


I think most women in the country are envious of Southern women. They are treated like fine China down here!!

When I moved from Missouri to Northern Florida, I thought I had good manners, but I was wrong. I got on a crowded bus one day and grabbed a hand rail with standing room only. A couple of women stepped on the bus and 5 young men (thuggish looking) stood up and said, "ma'am" and gestured to their seat!!

I KNEW I was in the South and had a lot to learn!

When I first went to Ft. Walton Beach, I marveled at the military men and women taking their hats on and off and on and off as they went in and out of the grocery stores!

I'm sure there are some feminists out there that would be appalled at a man holding the door or giving up his seat to her, but I bet for every woman like that there are at least 100 that would nearly faint at the courtesy they are shown down here!!

[edit on 9-7-2010 by getreadyalready]

Originally posted by Intelearthling
I've read just about every post on this thread and had to come to the conclusion that some posters are just ignorant of history.

Black Confederates in the Civil War

Any time someone brings up blacks serving the CSA, I have to bring this up:

Sonderkommando

Sonderkommandos were work units of German Nazi death camp prisoners who aided with the killing process during The Holocaust. The death-camp Sonderkommando consisted almost entirely of Jews, and should not be confused with the SS-Sonderkommandos which were ad hoc units formed from various SS offices between 1938 through 1945.

The term itself in German means "special unit", and was part of the vague and euphemistic language which the Nazis used to refer to aspects of the Final Solution.

So, since some Jews helped the Nazis, then the Holocaust wasn't about killing Jews.

Yes, I know millions of other "threats" were killed as well, but the "Final Solution" was about extermination of Jews.

Originally posted by MikeNice81


We can't talk about that though. We have to keep hammering at the stereotype of the evil south. The boogie man of the south is just a way for northerners to deflect attention from their own misdeeds over the years.

Your entire post is premised on the idea that if the North exhibited prejudice or racism toward African americans...then the South is sinless.

It makes no sense.

Yes there was and is racism in the North. I have never taken a holier-than-thou approach to the issue.

None of that changes the facts of history. This country in it's ENTIRITY has less than prideful times in our history.

The important lesson is to own them and learn...rather than simply keep trying to point out that the North is not immune to racism...so what.

The south has a great heritage, history and culture and civil rights, slavery and the civil war is a blemish on that history. Just the facts. I love parts of the south...but not so much that I am willing to re-write history.

The larger issue is the fact that STILL TODAY it used to divide this country.

"The South is the only part of the United States to be thoroughly defeated and humiliated in a war"...that breeds contempt for the "liberal, smart asses" in the north. The war is long over, but the contempt is still there, handed down through the generations.

And that contempt is used by political forces to manipulate us.

THAT is what this video is about...

Lee Atwater was Karl Rove's mentor and teacher...He was a master at pushing buttons for political purposes...non-issues used to divide the electorate.



Here is a broader look at Atwater

reply to post by maybereal11

Your entire post is premised on the idea that if the North exhibited prejudice or racism toward African americans...then the South is sinless.

Wow I love how deeply you read in to my posts. See I'm pretty straight forward. My premise was that the video was another attack on southerners and southern politics. It was another chance to attack the southern boogie man without showing both sides of the picture. It was deflecting blame and ignoring the north's role in racial politics, or that there is a northern problem with race.

I never said the south was sinless. I never said the south should get a free pass. If you read the post you'll see exactly what I said and what I meant.

The south has a great heritage, history and culture and civil rights, slavery and the civil war is a blemish on that history. Just the facts. I love parts of the south...but not so much that I am willing to re-write history.

Great. I am not trying to rewrite history. I've never said race was a non issue. I also refused to say that slavery wasn't a reason in the civil war. I've tried to show that slavery was not the main reason. Seperatist movements started nearly three decades before the CSA ever came in to being.

I've tried to shed light on the deeper history of the conflict. I've also tried to point out that the north was, and still is, far from the mythical land of milk and honey it is potrayed as. I do this because there are still people (even on this thread) that pretend civil rights and discrimination are purely "peculiar" southern institutions. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Clips like the one I responded to only serve to further this stereotype. Thus it continues to damage the reputations of millions of people. It breeds a belief that causes people to be ridiculed and scorned for no other reason than the place of their birth. If the movie is about much more the preview was not well put together or thought through.

I can't tell you how many people from New York and Boston have told me they were amazed to see interracial couples in the south. People from the north just can't believe it when they find out that there are five star restraunts and Ferrari dealerships. They honestly believe that we are barefoot hicks driving nothing but rusted out pick up trucks and eating grits for every meal.

They don't think about Virginia having one of the highest concetrations of interracial couples during the nineties. They don't realize that one of the oldest Jewish temples in the country is in South Carolina. They don't think about places like Vanderbilt and Duke University. They don't know about that side of the south because of clips like the one you posted. They don't know about the true south because people continue to push this idea that everything in the south revolves around race. When the reality is that the north has done less to strive for civil rights and integration over the last fifty years than most places in the south.

"The South is the only part of the United States to be thoroughly defeated and humiliated in a war"...that breeds contempt for the "liberal, smart asses" in the north. The war is long over, but the contempt is still there, handed down through the generations.

The contempt is still there because a certain class of people refuse to see the southen point of view. They also refuse to let us live our lives free from their baby sitting. It doesn't take much to foster contempt when you start talking about taxing Coca Cola and Pepsi's (southern companys) products and putting legal restraints on the amount of salt in food. (Country Ham is salt cured ham and is wildly popular in the south.) Then they keep jacking up taxes on tobacco which reduces the number of smokers and puts farmers in financial jeopardy. They reduce or eleminate tarrifs on textiles and fabrics, that puts thousands more southerners out of work. Then they tell them that there are plenty of jobs in "health care fields." That is great unless you live in a rural area where the nearest healthcare facility is a doctor's office thirty minutes away. He can't support the 3,000 people out of work.

Next we move on to gas milage regulations that are expected to raise the cost of a new car or truck as much as $6,000 - $10,000. No that won't hurt the allready struggling farmers and construction contractor's at all. Then they refuse to do anything about illegal immigration. Ask any southerner that has had the misfortune of working in a meat processing plant, or being a small construction contractor, how that has worked out. In construction it has driven down the prices contractor's can charge. (It has not driven down the cost of housing just added more to the pockets of general contractors and developers.) In some towns that rely on meat packing plants it has ruined the economy for locals.

Then all we need to do is look at mayors Daley and Bloomberg to see what most northern liberals think of gun owners and their guns.

THAT is what this video is about...

Lee Atwater was Karl Rove's mentor and teacher...He was a master at pushing buttons for political purposes...non-issues used to divide the electorate.

Then the first clip did a poor job of getting the point across. It made the film look like rather sensationalistic. Yes Strom was a complete waste of breath. However, he is not the epitome of southern politics and neither is Lee Atwatter.






[edit on 11-7-2010 by MikeNice81]

Originally posted by Johnze

but nnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooAz cant pick on the "ILLegals!!!

I know mate, what a bummer eh

IF ONLY WE COULD ENSLAVE OUR FELLOW MAN

wouldnt that be so much better, wtf.

Peope here Illegally are not slaves....they risked getting caught by just coming.

I have a friend who is an Iraq Christian living in hiding in Syria waiting to try to come to here to the USA legally...it is a life or death situation for them, but they wait patiently....for the past 3 years they have been waiting...their lives were destroyed by the US/Iraq war. But they have to wait years for asylum here int he US....

Then other people cross the border use our schools, hospitals and welfare and are not even citizens? This is not a social justice issue...it is a criminal issue.


Illegal Immigrants re Criminal Immigrants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Criminals should be prosecuted.

Immigrants should enter legally and become true US Citizens.

reply to post by butcherguy


Ok, sidestepping the debate going on I have to respond to this.

What a bizarre movie. I was shocked to find all those products were real. I've heard of Burma Shave and other products that are no longer around but these are too much.

Anyone who says we aren't a racist country should check this out. We may have stopped using slaves way back when but that surely didn't make it easier on the blacks. Using racism in advertising is sick and these products just astound me. To think they really existed is hard for me to fathom.

The Coon Chicken Inn and Menu.











Darkie Toothpaste.







No explanation necessary.





Don't forget Aunt Jemima or Uncle Tom's rice.


Here's part one of the video. It's quite the interesting show.

Wallace ran on a platform of segregation. thousands in the south wanted nothing to do with the black race other than to consider them sub-human. the south would have never won. it might have been the longest war in America's history, but rational heads would have eventually prevailed.

reply to post by TheLoony


Great another hack job. It ignores the fact that the south did not intend to start a war when they seperated. Virginia agreed not to seperate if Lincoln removed his troops from Fort Sumter. Lincoln agreed to the terms. Then he sent men and supplies with the intention of using Fort Sumter as a point to start blockading southern harbors. The CSA even offered to pay in gold for the forts captured across the CSA. Lincoln refused the offer and rebuffed those sent to negotiate peace.

It ignores the fact that the south was not trying to wrest control from the union. The confederacy chose not to invade DC when they had the chance for an easy victory.

The further in to the show you get the more obvious it becomes that they ignore fact after fact and trend after trend. How they see the alternate history unfolding seems to be based on a slanted view that ignores the developement of technology, international influence, and any sense of nuance.

I had to edit to add an observation.

By part six it becomes obvious that there is no pretense of fairness. It seems that the CSA was populated by blood thirsty murderous devils. If given their druthers they would have conquered the world and enslaved every non white nation. They would have sympathized with Hitler and allowed him to do as he wished. They would have prefered he made Jews slaves though. It would be better than "wasting human livestock." They even would have put all of America's Jews on a reservation in Long Island.

This is show is so over the top it can be called nothing short of ill researched, ill concieved, and highly biased.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by MikeNice81]

At the end of the movie it says that the CSA leaders really did plan on conquering all of central and south America. If anybody can find proof of this, and point us torwards it, it would be appreciated.

I have never heard this and never seen it in any text I've read.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
Great another hack job. It ignores the fact that the south did not intend to start a war when they seperated.

Ofcourse the South did not intend war when they seperated, but the North was not prepared to allow the South to go independent. There are no ammendments, articles, sections in the constitution that discusses the matter of seccession. The fact of the matter was, the South attempted to break away from the Union, and the North reclaimed the South as being part of the Union. The actions of the North were little different from that of the annexation of Northern Mexico, or the annexation of Texas.

The South lost its opportunity to form its own nation(s). It is history now.

Virginia agreed not to seperate if Lincoln removed his troops from Fort Sumter.

Likewise the Union government had no real intention of allowing the South to leave. Regardless of what southern apologist Buchanan had said the year prior, or whether Lincoln was responding in a soft manner to the first steps the South was taking towards independence, the Union never had the real intention of allowing the South to leave. Neither was there any official government agreement signed between the North and the South recognizing the sovereignty of the Confederacy.

Regarding Virginia, they joined the confederacy following the reality that the South was not to be recognized by the North. True, however I fail to see how this changes the reasoning for Southern seccession in the first place. The declarations from the first states were made abundantly clear that their core reason for leaving was over the issue of slavery.

sunsite.utk.edu...

Does this make the North any more pure in their intentions? Ofcourse not, but that does not change the fact of the matter that the reason that sparked secession was over the argument of slavery.

The CSA even offered to pay in gold

Yes? And? The Union still had no intention of letting the South leave. What? Is this to make the North out to be evil? Or unfair? Do you think America's attack and invasion of Mexico was unfair? I'd bet my bottom dollar the Confederate apologists in Texas would jump up at that notion.

I understand where part of your argument is coming from, that there is this misguided idea the confederacy was the only unjust nation. The actions and ideals of the North promoted slavery for years, the Unions (with full support of Confederate states) supported the mass killings and removal of Mexicans from what was their land, their country. The actions of the United Kingdom and the many other European nations, South american nations including Brazil, Argentina. Yes the Confederate states are not to be singled out for that time period, but the argument over the case that the civil war was not about slavery, that is incorrect. It was made clear from confederate leaders themselves.

[edit on 12-7-2010 by Southern Guardian]

reply to post by Southern Guardian


It is good to see you back and twisting things around again SG. I never said that slavery wasn't an issue.

I have no real opinion on the anexation of northern Mexico. I have not studied the issue enough to really comment on it.

I understand where part of your argument is coming from, that there is this misguided idea the confederacy was the only unjust nation.

No you completely miss the point. I am saying that the video in question is a hack job. Why is it a hack job? Well it starts by implying that the purpose of southern seperation was to create war. That was not even close to being a reason. To prove that I stated facts.

It goes on from there to paint the CSA as a group of blood thirsty, anti-semetic, women haters. If you actually watch all nine parts of the movie you will see that it was ill researched, illconcieved, and blatantly biased.

but the argument over the case that the civil war was not about slavery, that is incorrect. It was made clear from confederate leaders themselves.

You and I have debated this before. The topic has even been debated in this thread. I am not going to go through the motions again with you. All I will say is that I never said slavery wasn't an issue. More to the point that has nothing to do with the post you responded to.

Regarding the Spike Lee mockumentary, I agree that it was biased.

We are talking about Spike Lee, you know!

Even so, I did find it interesting.

To think that slavery would have existed in North America until the present day under a Confederate regime is outlandish. Remember how the world fought segregation in South Africa? I doubt that the rest of the civilized world would have allowed it to go on in a country that they traded with.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by maybereal11

 

Your entire post is premised on the idea that if the North exhibited prejudice or racism toward African americans...then the South is sinless.

My premise was that the video was another attack on southerners and southern politics.

The movie is an attack on "politics" of manipulation...not specific to the south.

My aim was to show the value in reflecting upon given views we might hold. Are those views congruent with reality? Are we being fed a certain view? Are we being manipulated for political purposes?

The contempt for the north that some in the south still display is a fertile emotion for politicians to capitalize on and it is relevant today as it was a hundred years ago.

Originally posted by MikeNice81

The south has a great heritage, history and culture and civil rights, slavery and the civil war is a blemish on that history. Just the facts. I love parts of the south...but not so much that I am willing to re-write history.

I've tried to shed light on the deeper history of the conflict. I've also tried to point out that the north was, and still is, far from the mythical land of milk and honey it is potrayed as. I do this because there are still people (even on this thread) that pretend civil rights and discrimination are purely "peculiar" southern institutions. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I am not one of those people.

If you watched those clips...the black man who was one of Lee Atwaters best friends...he says "The South is complicated"...that is my view too.

Lee Atwater, while playing upon racism for political purposes to get his people elected...was also close friends with many African Americans....it's complicated...Thurmond while saying "Blood would run" before the south would integrate, also had a mulato daughter...complicated.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
If the movie is about much more the preview was not well put together or thought through.

The movie is about how the southern culture's contempt for the north is used as a political tool...THAT is the value...not a knock on the south.



As for the rest.

Coca-cola/pepsi? Not just southern companies, I am in Illinois and less than a few miles from the sales and marketing headquarters.

We are a fat populace with diabetes... Our kids are in horrible health...stop selling the crap in schools.

We farm in the north too. I am in the Midwest. Not sure your point with the gasoline tax etc. Pick-up trucks...the south doesn't have a corner on that. Ever hear of the farm belt?

As for Mayor Daley's views on guns. Do not speak of things you know little about. I am near Chicago....Kids...KIDS ...are being gunned down on a regular basis. In April police responded to a shooting only to have shooting break out again WHILE they were on the scene...school kids are being killed regularly and cops are being killed, we just lost another last week. I am for Gun rights, I own guns, but I can't fault the Mayor for trying to ban them in Chicago...it is a war zone.

reply to post by MikeNice81


Dude, seriously. Pull a chair into the shade, get yourself a large mint julep and relax.

It's not real, neither is Spinal Tap, Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

Was it stupid? Yes. Misinformed? Yes.

Was it hilarious? Yes.

Even though it was a piece of bunk I still learned something. Those products I posted above are all from the 20th century. After slavery was abolished. I never took exception to the old Looney Tunes cartoons that are banned nowadays but those examples are pretty sad. I never thought such idiotic and ridiculous stereotypes of blacks were used as marketing tools.

Really dude, it's Spike Lee. You should know he's going to be about as fair and balanced as Faux News on this.

Also, the South lost. That means, right or wrong, that the winners get to write the history books. You are going to get the shaft in that and there is nothing either of us can do to change that.

All that being said, I have been a small time student of this war and even I knew the history books, at least in my school, were crap. I love debates like this where everyone has the "truth" as to why the War of Northern Aggression happened('tweren't no Civil War IMO) when the people who actually fought the war had hundreds, thousands of different reasons for why they were fighting. Read James MacPherson's For Cause and Comrades, great book, explains it all yet answers no questions, just raises more.

You guys can argue that until the cows come home, I'll stay out of that. For all the talk of slavery and states-rights as issues that caused the war I think most don't look at the role of the International Banking Cartel. As they say in all the crime shows - "Follow the money".

I never thought that movie would piss someone off so much. I guess my perspective is different as I am from neither the North nor the South as my state, Nevada, didn't become anything until much later. I don't have a dog in this race, so to speak.