Definite Proof: (The) God (of the Bibles) DOESN’T EXIST! Part2

C- Is God perfect and fair? What about Angels or A&E?

"If God is perfect, WHY EVEN bother to create something?"
"If God is perfect, how can HE create something that is not (perfect)?"
"How can Angels or A&E do any mistake if they are perfect?"
"How can disobedience alone makes one suddenly not perfect anymore?"
We saw that God can be Evil so: "Is Evil a component of perfection?"…
"Can God be unfair? Can God be careless?"
"Does the promise of Heaven justify ALL suffering?"

Let's talk about Job.
"Did God bet with Lucifer on Job’s righteousness/endurance on suffering?"
"Who does learn from Job’s test? Lucifer? God? Us readers/Faithers??" …
"What one must endure to be granted Heaven?" "Is Heaven desert-like?"
For Job (and his test), maybe God is trying to prove a point to Lucifer (who in this story is clearly described as God’s «right hand» and in NO WAY an evil rival).
Isn’t it "a bit" (ironic) extreme (for Job) only to prove a point? Is HE that careless of our existence and our pain? Is it just all a game for him? Did he bet with Lucifer?
The only compensation for such a behavior (and pain inflicted) is to think that as Job (and his family?) will go to Heaven, the suffering he feels now is, in fact, his ticket to Heaven.
So, again(!) without the existence of a soul, and of an afterlife of course, Christianity (nor ANY religion) would exist!

If no soul, no Heaven, nor Hell... Nothing to aspire to nor fear... That’s what people believe «a   priori», that if there was no soul, God or Karma, there would be nothing stopping people to unleash the selfish/pervert «beast» that’s inside us… I don’t. We can argue (as I will in a later thread) it would have the opposite effect. Anyway, ask yourself if the concept of God would be as useful and meaningful without the existence of the soul… Ask yourself why and get back to me.
Convenient you say? I Couldn't agree more...

To come back to Job: Of ALL Jews (BTW, what about Chinese, Indians, Europeans… were they deemed non-righteous by God without even considering them? Is that some kind of racism??! Or is it that God didn’t know they existed as they are not mentioned in the Bible?? Or is it that the men who wrote the old testament weren’t aware of their existence?! No?) on earth, was he the ONLY ONE worthy simply to be tested?! What an honor and a «pure Good» experience (sarcasm)! No, seriously, it seems that, at least, God chose carefully between a handful of candidates. And this, not to go to Heaven, only TO BE TESTED AS WORTHY or not??!!! Heaven must sound empty…

More, Job went through everything else for God’s test-to-prove-a-point-to-Lucifer. He didn't spare him anything... Short of killing him of course... But that’s something I don’t understand, why not kill him? Why not give him Heaven as his well-earned reward? Didn't he pass the test? Isn't it enough suffering? Is the price of the ticket even higher? Is HE still doubting of Job and prefers to wait the "natural" (whatever that means when you have an All-powerful GOD) end of his life, just to be sure? (See previous point for «God’s doubt»)
Can GOD end a life only to punish and send someone to Hell? But what about his sons and daughters, do they go to Hell, then? Why? Nothing incriminating is said about them. Do they go to Heaven? So, if God, by killing people, can send them to Heaven, why does it let countless innocent men, women and children suffer TODAY? Why does He let us (all mankind) suffer??!

Here comes the concept of «free-will» again… The injustice of this world is not God’s one. It’s the injustice we inflict on ourselves (and any other human-being). Because we have the CHOICE («free-will») between Good and Evil, Righteousness and Sin.
Is that right? As I clearly demonstrate before, «free-will» CANNOT exist with an All-knowing God.
So, HE CHOSE TO BANISH US not because of what we did but BECAUSE OF WHAT WE WERE (and still are: flawed human-beings)!!!


[edit on 2-7-2010 by Project_USA]

(Thread continuation)

And who created us (with our physical but as surely our moral/spiritual attributes)?! Well, you know the answer to that question…
If we are flawed, It’s because HE is! But He still banish us!? Do you realize the implications?

Thus, the path/world we are on/in now, is the one He CHOSE for us! HE WANTS US TO SUFFER!! Maybe to force us to turn to Him and worship Him? But whatever the reason(s), WE DON’T CHOOSE what it means to be humans, our flaws, desires, fears…: The set of (all but limited) possible behaviors and mental structures we possess. That’s what defines us as a species! We only have INDIVIDUALLY the ILLUSION of power on our mind/behavior!! DO YOU GET IT??!
Does that seem to be the works of a perfect and fair God to you?!

As regards to what we can/cannot do/be as a species and the set of laws He gave us, I will develop on the possibility (or not) to be even righteous in the God’s eye in a later thread

Continuing on Job’s test: It seems tremendously, inhumanly harsh for Job, sons daughters and wife to ruin all their lives to prove a point to Lucifer (and us readers?). Job passed the test... Still, how can an All-loving GOD do that???

What about those, not righteous (enough? Meaning, are there levels of righteousness??) in God’s eye, who still suffer (amputees, handicapped, poor people, those living in regions were there is war, famine, those suffering from oppression, raped/abused women/children…) without being for a test?
Is it a punishment while living for being unworthy? Is eternal damnation not enough?
Is it only the works of Satan? If so, why wait to intervene and get rid of Satan once and for all as it’s promised in the texts? Simply, because God doesn’t care? Or is there a secret covenant between Him and Satan at our expense?

Or is it all simply the works of Man, without needing any outside «help»? All this demonstrating, if still needed, the useless and stupid nature of the faith/worship in Super-Beings playing/warring for our soul…

Everything here is totally and utterly senseless and out of any proportion, measure...
Still don't get it? Really? Ok…

You can ONLY be loved (judged worthy) by HIM if you first FEAR and/or WORSHIP HIM???
Is it a way of loving that I don’t know about? That us (mere humans) can’t understand but must obey?
How can we love someone that we fear? Fear=Submission=LOVE???
How can I love someone that I don’t even understand? How can I love someone who forces me to???
If you want someone to love you, is this the best course of action?
From God side: «How can an entity who wants to be feared or even worship by us can love us???»
Is it fair to ask from someone to fear/worship you in order for you to even consider loving them? Do you ask that of your own children?

For those interested I could develop on the idea that God REQUIRES us to worship Him. it cannot be the demand of a TRUE God. And this goes for prayers too.
More?

D- Is God even omnipotent (All-powerful)?

Again, how can a perfect God can create «un-perfect beings» ? Or is it simply that He can’t? Showing that there are some actions beyond His Power?

The angels and the battle for God’s throne.
A third rebellious and not perfect (Or can you be rebellious/defiant against God but still be perfect? Or, can a perfect being become suddenly, and without God‘s will, un-perfect?) angels decided to foment a coup/wage a war against God (??!)

First, what about the supposed «no violence» paradigm again?
Because you can tell me that God only defended himself and was not the one to start the fight… But still, how come he cannot respect his own rules??? Why didn’t he give the other cheekbone? (Did He? Satan won and that’s why we are in this «mess of a world» we live in?) Isn’t it a bit hypocritical to don’t participate to the fight but let the angels on His side do the «dirty work» again? Isn’t the one giving the order at least as responsible than the ones fighting?

Or is it that he didn’t give the order? Did He do nothing like He’s doing nothing anytime suffering occurs because of Satan? In this case there goes a potential useful aspect of God… Again…

BTW, can Angels die? What happen to them when they do? They’re already in Heaven!!!
How can angels living in Heaven can even be unsatisfied??? To the point to rebel against God? Isn’t Heaven ABSOLUTELY PERFECT, the ULTIMATE REWARD???!!!
How come His angels are capable of violence? Why didn’t He simply recognize that he tried and failed to create perfect beings who could understand His beauty and the perfection of His rules?
Also why rules are even needed for perfect creations? Shouldn’t they know them from their own being, from within? Easily explain, it’s because he gave them free-will… Or not…

Now, I ask myself: How can Satan and a 1/3 of the angels can even think of defeating God?!
Would that mean that they think that God is NOT All-powerful?! Is He truly not (All-powerful)?!
Well, if ANGELS (beings far more knowledgeable -of God and anything- than us) believe that God isn’t (He can be defeated) shouldn’t it be wise for us to think the same?
Are they simply delusional? So, why let them live and CAUSE all these atrocities now on mankind??? Could it be because God DOESN’T HAVE the power to eliminate them???
Now it could, again, explain why we see so much suffering in the world… He doesn’t have the POWER to put an end to it and/or stop Satan…
Again, more very confusing or simply irrational/impossible events (or inaction) attributed to God!

More?
How could HE fail, thrice (Satan and his followers, the Nephilim, Adam & Eve, meaning all mankind)?
That's 75% failure (25% are the Angels who stayed «righteous» and by his side). Not a spotless record, don't you agree? Why doesn’t He simply resign? Did He?

Here, and again, faithers would try to (still?) brandish the «free-will wild-card» to try to transform the lack of God’s power (or will) into the supposed power of His creations: free-will… Yes, he doesn’t act because he doesn’t wish to… As all of His creations have free-will, they have the POWER to decide for themselves… Even against Him… Well, we know now it’s just an illusion…

Still think «God» is ALL-knowing, ALL-powerful, ALL-loving and Perfection incarnated?

Or maybe is it that we worship the wrong God? In Luke 14:26, what is said by God (?) himself?…
Also, what are the last words of Jesus in the Bible? What is the translation and whom the expression is used for before this last one time?

CONCLUSION and opening

One thing now is certain: The Bibles CANNOT be the true words of any GOD!
(The) «God» (of the Bibles) is NOT All-loving, NOT fair nor perfect, NOT All-knowing, seemingly NOT All-powerful -at the very least, lacking the will to use (or He’s misusing) His absolute power-.
Look in yourself, you know it’s true.
Therefore, there are mainly 3 possibilities:

1- The «God» of the Bibles is not GOD but an «evil» (more) knowledgeable, powerful (than us) being (species?): an hypocritical, pervert, fear-monger, selfish, genocidal liar. But CERTAINLY NOT GOD. And the other one (if there truly is a Satan-like evil being/species) has less/no empathy (?!).

2- He simply doesn’t exist. He’s merely a complex human’s hypothesis/fantasy.
We created Him in OUR image (We cannot imagine a being truly superior to ourselves simply because we don’t have the intellectual capacities to do so!) to satisfy some of our strongest desires (lessen some of our darkest fears) by answering the questions: Who created the universe/us? Why are we here? What is the meaning of life? How must we live it? Is there an after-life? Why do we suffer?
All stupid/childish questions that I can help showing why they are so.3- Does an(other concept for an) Omniscient, Omnipotent, All-loving GOD can exist, at all? (For the Omnipresent part I can explain but it’s equally simple to understand as it is complex/difficult to share…

(Thread continuation)

Let‘s just say that if God is everything/everywhere, it‘s not distinguishable from Him being NOTHING: not existing).
A GOD that would make sense. One who would not be an anthropomorphized God (NOT a human-like God just more knowledgeable, powerful…).
A GOD that wouldn’t intervene in our lives. Who would have nothing to say about our suffering.

I hope we all agree that we are ALL experiencing suffering, even «only» from the void/fear/frustration we ALL feel due to our lack of knowledge. -Interesting to point out that THE ONE THING WE CRAVE FOR (knowledge), the «God» of the Bibles FORBID it from us!- Some would say that’s exactly the point in having faith in GOD, to fill up this void. «To make us whole again. To reunite with Him…»
Seem beautiful and all, except that… Refresh my memory, WHO created this void in the first place?!
To make an analogy, He made us junkies. HE created the need for us to turn to Him!
To go deeper, I would ask: Why separate a being (any of His creations) from Himself… To ultimately rejoin?! If the one true goal of life is to reunite with GOD, why separate us (from Him) in the first place???

Please, really, don’t fool yourself by trying to answer these questions and more.
We MUST accept that there are questions we don’t even understand (or don’t know the logical validity), thus, don’t have a satisfactory (rationally speaking) answer to them.
LET’S CONCENTRATE ON WHAT IS IN THE REALM OF OUR MIND CAPACITY.
It’s not enough to believe you can. It’s not enough to believe…
The problem here is that no one would convince a faither that he’s wrong or that he believes a fantasy… Because no one CAN. We have to learn how to spot unanswerable questions, separate beliefs from theories and to don’t base any action on them (beliefs), OURSEVES.

We use verbs like «to know» too often instead of «to believe», «to want» instead of «to desire/wish». We (mis)use A LOT of (meaningless/confusing) concepts/ideas like intuition, instinct or even death, after-life, spirit/soul… And we base our choices/thoughts/reality/behaviors on them… Well, look around… Look at the mess we’re in… It’s simply the mirror of our minds’ (mess)!!!

We simply must accept that we don’t know what is/could be GOD.
We don’t have the intellectual capacity for it. We don’t know if this concept even makes sense.

But we KNOW, NOW, what HE is NOT, what HE CAN’T be!

The commandments and other guidelines for the ruling of our life/behavior are, for a large part, potentially useful but they’re based on lies, faith, blindness, fear, submission… And that’s only a superficial/illusory way (the worst) to (believe you can) better yourself.
You can’t TRULY EVOLVE by believing (fantasies)!
I know we all have a deep fear (the more we try to deny it, the more it grows) of ceasing to exist. We desire so much to counter-balance that fear that we are ready to BELIEVE ANYTHING for the promise of diminishing it!
So we found a «solution»: Be gullible! What better way to alleviate the fear, the pain that to simply believe (convince ourselves of) fables that sound good to our ears?.. That’s their usefulness, they are created for that very purpose: Keep us in a safe fantasy world for our minds.
It’s not that some people just cannot think straight or are stupid, it’s that THEY CHOOSE to don’t use their intellectual potential. They curb themselves!
They catch a glimpse of the «Truth» and that scares them!
BUT WHAT THEY DON’T KNOW IS: ONCE YOU BEGIN TO LEARN, TO UNDERSTAND, FEAR TRULY DIMINISH!
Yes it’s gonna be painful, at first, because you’ll have to get rid of seemingly beautiful ideas. Yes, you’re gonna need resolve. But the reward of knowledge is freedom… From our fears! That’s the only way to EVOLVE!

(Thread continuation)

I read once or twice that one of Man’s special trait was his propensity to religion (organization of a more or less complex beliefs-system to answer existential/metaphysical questions and create guide-lines/rules for a given society to help to its functioning).
It’s a special trait because it shows a higher level of society, (compare to other animals). Why? Because it doesn’t have any purpose/usefulness to the basic reason for every species to behave: Survival.
It seems that when we free ourselves of the wilderness immediate danger, we start to indulge in consideration of a ’higher’ NATURE like religion. Consideration not dictated by the immediate need of survival.

Well, sorry to spoil it for you, but religion is very concerned with survival. I can even show you that’s what is at its core!
To be brief, one obvious argument is the fact that religion is based in part on the belief of the existence of an «after-life» , a «spirit», «soul». What are these concepts if not an (delusional) attempt to ensure the SURVIVAL of the species/individual (after our death!!!)? As I was saying before, we’re ready to believe («accept» as true) ANYTHING that can relieve us even partially from the fear to cease to exist… Any dream, fantasy… ANYTHING!
The other, going a bit deeper, is the very survival of our MIND. As Our mind state dictate our behavior, some of us NEED to believe such illusions to stay sane, to don’t completely loose it, and become or useless, or even dangerous for society… So again, survival of the individual/species.

The heart of the problem, now.
Once we developed intellectual capacities and language, questions arise. And these questions are so disturbing, so frightening that the easiest way to answer them (and the fear that comes along) is to create a fantasy-world. And the more there are people to believe in it, the more it becomes «truth». The more it acquires substance: «The illusion of everyone becomes reality».
That’s why it’s so important for faithers to convince/convert and convert more! The non-believers, (above all, the ones of my kind, the ones that come with powerful and compelling arguments) are a threat to their illusion, to their psychosis, to their Wonderland, THEIR «reality».

Also, these questions/ideas are a lot more scary than wild animals as… They don’t die!!

So, yes religions are a step higher from the animal reign, but it’s not enough. We’re not there yet. Because to have faith is to stop looking for the «Truth», to even dismiss/fight knowledge.
« The faithers/believers are the lost blind ones leading the way… To our doom! »
Ready to evolve now?

Link to the first part: www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 2-7-2010 by Project_USA]

So uh, where's the beef .
Nothing hear constitutes proof partner.
Epic fail nothing to see here.

Still think «God» is ALL-knowing, ALL-powerful, ALL-loving and Perfection incarnated?

Yes

So, yes religions are a step higher from the animal reign, but it’s not enough. We’re not there yet. Because to have faith is to stop looking for the «Truth», to even dismiss/fight knowledge

To have faith is never to stop looking for truth. It is however when you stop questioning the one who created you.
I wonder where that point is for you.
Proof? Hardly.

[edit on 2-7-2010 by randyvs]

I don't even get the whole idea of disproving the existence of a higher power, whether you want to call it GOD or anything else, the title has no meaning.

Those who believe there was a big bang....where do those molecules come from in order to collide? Nothing happens out of nothing. Those who believe we are descendants or created by Aliens, who created them in the first place?

Don't you get it? In order for something to have happened, big bang, aliens, etc....something of a higher power must've been present....and who created that higher power? This is a never ending mystery! Once you find me that answer and find real proof of something of that caliber, then you can talk about it like you are right now....in the mean time......educate yourself!

'Nough Said!

My god could beat up your god.

Prove me wrong!

reply to post by randyvs


Did you read Part1 & 2? Well, read again.

That's called "logical proof", reasonning.
What could it be?

How can you create evil when you are not perfect.

To be perfect also means that you are,can,understand the other side of the medallion.

How can one, that is perfect not know evil ?

Originally posted by TheEnlightenedOne
I don't even get the whole idea of disproving the existence of a higher power, whether you want to call it GOD or anything else, the title has no meaning.

Those who believe there was a big bang....where do those molecules come from in order to collide? Nothing happens out of nothing. Those who believe we are descendants or created by Aliens, who created them in the first place?

Don't you get it? In order for something to have happened, big bang, aliens, etc....something of a higher power must've been present....and who created that higher power? This is a never ending mystery! Once you find me that answer and find real proof of something of that caliber, then you can talk about it like you are right now....in the mean time......educate yourself!

'Nough Said!

Giving lecture on... Something you didnt read apparently...

I dont speak (or very little) of GOD/Creator of all things, I speak of the CONCEPT of God developped in the Bibles.

argumentum ad ignorantiam

Is a logical fallacy where a proposition is asserted to be either true or false simply because it has not been proven or disproven. As Carl Sagan once called it; "impatience with ambiguity", absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
How can you create evil when you are not perfect.

To be perfect also means that you are,can,understand the other side of the medallion.

How can one, that is perfect not know evil ?

Perfection, as employed in the Bibles, means righteous (without sin). So, It should be PURE Good.

Heaven, perfect place of God is described Evil-less. So, by deduction we can think that Evil isnt a component of God being.
The same goes for Eden after "Judgment day".

reply to post by Project_USA

That's called "logical proof", reasonning.

K read it again . Look Does, God exist? You suggest he does all through the very thread that is suppose to be proving he dosn't.

Does God exist ? Yes even above anything you call logic.
I have some logic for you . It would very simply require full knowledge of the Universe to make such a claim.

If God exists he is capable of anything. He made sure people who still wanted tro know him, and of his plan to redeem us, had a way to do that. The Bible. He's capable. That's really where you need not concern yourself with any further Judgemental questioning of our father in heaven.



[edit on 2-7-2010 by randyvs]

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
argumentum ad ignorantiam

Is a logical fallacy where a proposition is asserted to be either true or false simply because it has not been proven or disproven. As Carl Sagan once called it; "impatience with ambiguity", absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You point?
Because, that's exactly what I try to prevent. I try to disprove the truthfulness of their belief. So they cannot use the argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance) anymore or by simply dismissing my (and others') logical/rational argumentation.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Project_USA

 

That's called "logical proof", reasonning.

K read it again . Look Does, God exist? You suggest he does all through the very thread that is suppose to be proving he dosn't.

Does God exist ? Yes even above anything you call logic.
I have some logic for you . It would very simply require full knowledge of the Universe to make such a claim.

Doesnt seem to prevent you from making such claim...

But, still I never said that GOD/Creator of all didnt exist nor couldnt.
I speak of the (concept of the) God of the Bibles.
You seem to fail to make the difference... But there is a big one!
And I develop it in my discussion. Sure you read it?

To quote willi Shakespeare : me thinks thou dost protest too much` , or something like that. Or this here : The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/880cee48aee0.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by Project_USA


The Bible is not making any attempts to prove God, it functions as mythology. The point of mythology is not in its historical accuracy, or its non fictional nature, the point of mythology is to offer life lessons in the form of a standard structure. Deconstructing the Bible is as pointless as deconstructing the myth of Sisyphus or Heracles. It is the message that matters. Either you get the message or you don't.

reply to post by Project_USA

But, still I never said that GOD/Creator of all didnt exist nor couldnt.

As I said God the creator of all is capable. You just aren't quite there.
Or something.
There is only one God creator of all including the Bible .Come on first the baby steps.

The Bible is not making any attempts to prove God, it functions as mythology. The point of mythology is not in its historical accuracy, or its non fictional nature, the point of mythology is to offer life lessons in the form of a standard structure. Deconstructing the Bible is as pointless as deconstructing the myth of Sisyphus or Heracles. It is the message that matters. Either you get the message or you don't.

The Bible from your point of view, or anyone with an education for that matter. Academically standing that is. Should be considered a masterpiece
of ancient literature. Dosn't take to much imagination to understand why it isn't. You have been duped and you paid a large sum to become that way.

The End.

[edit on 2-7-2010 by randyvs]

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Project_USA

 

The Bible is not making any attempts to prove God, it functions as mythology. The point of mythology is not in its historical accuracy, or its non fictional nature, the point of mythology is to offer life lessons in the form of a standard structure. Deconstructing the Bible is as pointless as deconstructing the myth of Sisyphus or Heracles. It is the message that matters. Either you get the message or you don't.

Are you kidding?!

No faither see the Bible as mythology. IMO, to think that would really end all religious conflict as there wouldnt be any affect invested in these texts and their truthfulness (or not). Also, these texts wouldnt be the ones to decide of the principles presiding the life of dozens of millions of people.

The problem is that for faithers, the Bibles are NO fiction at all! THEY STATE FACTS!(?) Thus they are no mythological, they are true words of God "expressing what Reality is".