Bloody Sunday report states those killed were innocent

reply to post by Freeborn


Indeed. it is precisely because of the experiences in NI that the British Army was requested by the US to train their troops in counter-insurgency warfare.

I also wholeheartedly agree with everything else you have posted in this thread. If the relatives of those who died are going to start a witchhunt for a handful of soldiers killing a handful of protesters, then all the
CONVICTED terrorists of the paramilitary groups who killed thousands should go back in jail and finsih their sentences.

I lived in NI during the 80's and the so called "freedom fighters" of the republicans had no compunctions about targetting small children on their way to school simply because our daddies were in the Army. No enquiries for us, no finger pointing. In fact, the heads of the IRA during both Bloody Sunday and beyond are now serving in Government, despite their being substantial evidence of their complicity in the killings of hundreds.

I find that more disgusting than anything else, that these people are held up as heroes by some for killing pregnant women and children, let alone anyone else.

[edit on 15/6/10 by stumason]

This song speaks a lot to the occurrence of Bloody Sunday. It brings a tear to my eye every time I hear it. The video also has some history of what happened that day.

reply to post by stumason
"I lived in NI during the 80's and the so called "freedom fighters" of the republicans had no compunctions about targetting small children on their way to school simply because our daddies were in the Army. No enquiries for us, no finger pointing. In fact, the heads of the IRA during both Bloody Sunday and beyond are now serving in Government, despite their being substantial evidence of their complicity in the killings of hundreds. I find that more disgusting than anything else, that these people are held up as heroes by some for killing pregnant women and children, let alone anyone else."


That is what you say ^ yet I can say pretty much the same thing, all of which I truly believe, I just have to change a few words:

I lived in NI during the 80's and the so called "Army" of 'Britian' had no compunctions about targetting small children on their way to school simply 'because we were catholic'. No enquiries for us, no finger pointing. In fact, the heads of the 'British Army and the Police service' during both Bloody Sunday and beyond are now 'Still' serving 'their' Government, despite their being substantial evidence of their complicity in the killings of 'innocent civilians over many years in Ireland. I find that more disgusting than anything else, that these people are held up as heroes by some for killing 'innocent civilians'.

I have seen first hand the way the soldiers and police service treated catholic civilians on a daily basis! I have experienced abuse by the British Army, I doubt you could talk to one catholic family in Derry City who hasnt experienced or have a relative that has also experienced such abuse themselves.

David Cameron's apology was a good thing, it shows that the British government can finally admit to its wrongdoings, it is a huge step forward to mending relations between the Irish catholics and the British government. Do you agree that he should have apologized?


I know you dont want the murdering soldiers to be punished for what they did, so, if you knew the results of this report years ago say like a year after bloody sunday, would you still have felt pretty happy having murderers represent your country? those who were supposed to be here to protect people? those who continuously lied about killing civilians, as if its not bad enough being murdered but then to have your name tarnished by the soldier as he lies saying that you were armed and shooting, you get called a terrorist. Would you have let them go off and murder civilians in other countires?, some of them probably worked their way up the ranks and got to teach the younger squaddies their methods of dealing with innocent civilians, how nice.

And btw if you and others want to derail the thread into a 'We hate the IRA thread' then go ahead and make one, this thread is about the 'Bloody Sunday Inquiry' last time I checked.

Without the IRA I probably still wouldnt be allowed to vote, wouldnt be able to get a job, wouldnt be able to find a decent house, we wouldnt have the PSNI instead of the notoriously bitter police force the RUC who relentlessly abused catholics, we would not have catholics representing us in government, we wouldnt have anything that remotely resembles where we have gotten to today, which is a much fairer and safer society for all who are a part of it, we are finally represented in government.

So I thank SinnFein.

I do not support those breakaway factions who want to continue to fight. We need peace now, and today brought us further to it in my eyes.

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


You actually got shot at by the Army did you? I got shot at by IRA "snipers" while in the car with my dad.

You actually had bombs placed outside your home by the Army? I lose count of the amount of bomb scares we had and not just in NI. They came after us in Germany and the mainland too.

You had bombs placed under you car by the Army, did you? We did by the IRA. One of my dads friends was blown to bits as he got in his car after going shopping. I remember watching my dad from 50 ft away checking our car every time we went out for years.

You had mortar shells fired at your home by the Army, did you? We did. Shells landing inside barracks and not targetting military facilities, but landing amongst the family housing.

You try to paint the Army is a bad light and granted, Bloody Sunday was a disgrace, but by and large the effort by the Army was to keep the peace and combat the terrorists who were actually and willfully engaged in violence against innocent people long before Bloody Sunday.

You always had the right to vote and could always get a job (at least legally). Any issues you guys had in NI were directly as a result of both sides of the divide being petty and allowing small-minded religious differences to get in the way. From what I know about the situation, the rerason Catholics had "problems" voting etc were directly as a result of Republicans threatening anyone who tried to get on with life.

Did the Army actually stop you voting? did the Army actually stop you buying a "decent house"? Did the Army acvtually stop you getting a job?

No.

Ask any soldier who served in NI and no-one wanted to be there, no one wanted what was going to continue and no one wanted to stop anyone doing anything. It was the population of NI that did this to themselves and the Army was caught in the middle of a stupid religious argument.

But, I recognise it is fashionable for Catholics to blame "the British", but in all honesty both sides of the local population brought it all on themselves. There is just a stubborn refusal by republicans to accept any responsibility, aside from a half-hearted "apology" a few years ago for the deliberate killing of innocent people.

But I suppose we're just have to accept it, just like you have to accept what happened to you. Continuing the argument for "justice" is only going to re-open old wounds and will help no-one.

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


Martin McGuiness is a convicted member of the IRA and it is generally accepted that he supplied detonators for nail bombs which were to be used during the day that Bloody Sunday occurred.

Unfortunately the tragic chain of events that resulted in the killings resulted in the nail bombs never being set off.

How many innocent people would have died then?
Would you have been as keen to seek justice for the murdered families then?

What about the innocents at Omagh and Enniskilen?

Or is your your grief solely for Nationalists?

Or is it just a desire to make martrys our of them to enable you to return to the days of killing?

Sinn Fein are nothing more than murderer's.

The IRA and their like disgust me and make me ashamed to admit my Catholic heritage.

But we forgive and accept that it is time to take a leap forward rather than wallowing in the hurt and misery that is Ireland's history.

There are far too many mothers from both sides with lost son's and daughters.
There are too many grieving widow's.

Your desire for revenge will do nothing but bring back the circle of killing.
If that is what you want, well, I shall leave the rest unsaid, for now.


As for the poster who took a piece of music and twisted it to reflect their own bigotry I will just add this as a fairer interpretation to the true thoughts of the writers of that song.

The posters on this thread should take a step back from the keyboard not get involved in tit-for-tat posts.

The Brits should realise that:
1. numerous UK goverments have failed the catholic community in NI
2. Civil rights have not been adhered to in relation to catholic community
3. Not all men (and women) in an British Army uniform are angels. There are plenty of those who are serving to fulfill their own agenda.

The Irish should realise that:
1. The republican paramilitaries were not saints
2. There are/were those serving their own agenda from within the republican paramilitary groups who acted more like gangsters/drug barons than freedom fighters
3. Innocent people were targeted by republican paramilitaries

If we can all understand that sometimes 'our own' people make mistakes or do wrong, then maybe one day, peace can have a chance. As things stand, peace is taking root in NI but like a new flower, it must be handled with care otherwise it will wither and die but I am sure that the good people of the six counties wont let that happen.

Peace

reply to post by Extreme Pilgrim


Surely that is the essence of debate and discussion.

And we most definately SHOULD discuss our thoughts and emotions with each other in an attempt to understand each other's grief and viewpoint.

For far too long there was no talking in Northern Ireland, only killing, and we can not allow it to go back to that.

reply to post by stumason


If the British Army left our streets, then you wouldnt have been targeted then would you? catholics did not want the British army to stay here abusing them, would have saved alot of trouble if the army went back to England earlier and left catholic neighbourhoods, if people here were given more civil rights to begin with then that would have helped do you not think?, its not as if the army were protecting the catholic community or anything, more like helping the UVF and other loyalist paramilitary groups kill catholics by giving them guns and sharing intel with them on nationalists.

And I am not trying to paint the army in a bad light like you say, they did that all on their own! Yes I was lucky enough to never have been shot, but I have experienced abuse by the British armed forces, not only from the army but from the Royal Ulster Constabulary too, and a high majority of catholics I know has also. I will not say much on it on this forum as I would rather not talk about my personal experiences of that nature on a public forum.


But all this is common knowledge, ask any catholic from Derry. Have you had British soldiers kick their way into your home in the middle of the night shouting and sticking guns into you and your families heads? raiding properties, destroying your posessions, laughing and mocking whilst doing so? this happened nearly on a nightly basis in my neighbourhood, some houses would be hit a few times every week, have you ever been walking down a street when a landrover pulls up, british soldiers throw you in the back, beat the crap outta you and then throw you out again? this happened alot also, especially if you were wearing a celtic top or Ireland jersey, what about being lifted by the army, beaten, taken to jail and held for weeks with no trial or charges against you? are you aware that one of the main focus's of the Bloody Sunday march was to call for an end to 'Internment' that was when catholics were being lifted all over the city, abused by cops and army and held in jail with no charge of a crime or any evidence against them.

Are you trying to say catholics were never discriminated against here? What was the group NICRA who formed in the late 60's about then, they formed to call for reform of the government here as catholics were being continually discriminated against, they were fighting for 'one vote one man' an end to discrimination on council housing, public sector jobs etc, if you look at pictures of areas in Derry like the Bogside, The Glen etc in the 60's, 70's, 80's and right up to the 90's then I guarantee if you compare them to protestant areas in the City you will see a huge diference.

So, Do you not agree with Cameron apologizing for Bloody Sunday then?

Okay i'm asking an honest question here now.

Have things changed for the better?

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Okay i'm asking an honest question here now.

Have things changed for the better?

Sorry I ment to reply to your earlier post also but I got caught up in the other postings, you sound like one of my best friends/housmate, he's from Yorkshire, living in Northern Ireland now about 5 years and he loves it here, he has the same view as you on the bloody sunday matter, before he came here his views were diferent, he is protestant an has no bother living in catholic neighbourhood, so in answer to your question yes things have changed for the better, very much so

There is still the few bitter ones trying to keep things going, the breakaway groups on both sides, but hopefully they will get tired and wise up, people are getting really sick of it all, those who continue to war are outnumbered by those who want peace to last,.

I am going to bow out of this thread now as I will probably get too caught up in it and emotions run high so I shall walk away, just want to say that the apology today will help to bring back faith in the government without the acknowledgment of the wrongdoings that day then people would hold on to their resentment.

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


I know a family from Derry who were forced to move because one of the son's started seeing a Protestant.
Knock on the door in middle of the night, threats were made etc, etc.
The started making plans to move the very next day.

I'm sure you know that was no isolated incident.

I've heard the stories of the knee cappings etc, for the slightest transgression.

This occurred on both sides.

The Troubles had long since stopped being about religion or the well being of the relative communities.
The para-militaries were ruthless gangsters more interested in the proceeds from drug and gun running and their protection rackets.

As for voting, again the majority only voted for who they were told to, otherwise you got the dreaded knock at the door during the night.

Jobs.
Yes there was discrimination.
Anyone who deny's that know's nothing about Irish history.
But this was exaggerated by the protection rackets the para-militaries, again on both sides, were running.
The managers of the shipyards etc and the rackateers were even more guilty than the British government of perpetuating that.
They wanted to maintain their control.

The British Army went into Ulster at the request of the catholic comminities.
If they had left then a bloodbath would have ensued.
Hardly the action of a responsible government.

Edit to add:
I notice you have a quote from Mahatma Gandhi in your signature and express admiration and support for Sinn Fein and The IRA.

[edit on 15/6/10 by Freeborn]

As a human bean with catholic Irish /and protestant English blood and other stuff to complicated for me to describe here, I respect the Brits for the admission.
I guess the Israelis will take heart that the similar death toll took forty years to admit.
So waht does it prove?
The soldiers got spooked big time, and they fired off, and killed several people then they regained their senses and stopped.
They were in a war zone.
They stuffed up, but they were on duty and were in a highly stressful zone.
Just as the Israelis were a few weeks ago.
Or are they just patsy 's ?
They were British Soldiers, and thats what makes me think they were not working against orders?
But good on the new stooge in Britain.

reply to post by Freeborn


You really need to brush up on your Northern Irish history, most of what you say is grossly one sided and ignorant. Its people like you people who refuse to see that SinnFein represent the majority of the catholics here, that is why they were voted into power, that is why Martin McGuinness is the Deputy First Minister.

You say you know a family who had to move because their son was datng a protestant? how long ago was this? recently? because I live in a nationalist area and my housemate/friend is a protestant englishman, he has never had any trouble here and he has lived here for the last 5 years.

I know some people on both sides can be very bitter still, there is areas of my city where I would be afraid to walk into, when I was younger me and a friend got badly beaten up on our way to the hospital to visit another friend , the hospital being in a largely protestant area that we had to go through to get there. Even now in 'Irish Street' funny name for such a staunchly loyalist area with red, white and blue painted on the kerbstones and lampposts, if you happen to go through the area in a taxi with a cityside number on top then you run the risk of getting a brick through the window, which has happened quite alot, ( Irish street is also on the busroute to the hospital and buses have had bricks thrown through their windows when going through protestant estates, on the way to and from the hospital from nationalist areas)

Yeah I agree there are some paramilitaries with their hands in the drug trade, you will find that they are mostly mainly loyalists, like the UVF, in the catholic areas in the cityside people know to stay away from drugs or they may get kneecapped, put out if Derry, or shot dead by the RAAD Republican Action Against Drugs, drugdealers are usually given a warning first, and there was an amnesty not that long ago for drugdealers to stop dealing and they would be let to get on with their lifes.

Although its effective in keeping drugs down in I dont agree with the RAAD I think the time has come to move on and start to trust the police service to do their jobs, its hard for catholics to trust the police force but the more and more catholics who join up then the more chance we have of having a fair nonbiased police force that can work for our entire community.

You say the majority only voted for who they were told to
that is laughable, I have never ever had anyone tell me or anyone I know who they can or cannot vote for, and ive never ever heard of that happening here before, its a total fabrication.

There was discrimination and it was NOT exaggerated.

You say if the army had left it would not have been the action of a responsible government , okay so them staying and murdering innocent civilians was what then? actions of a responsible soldier? murdering bitter cowards more like, shooting people in the back as they ran away from them.

There is really no point in trying to tell you what it was like here for catholics before we got properly represented in government, the daily abuse by policemen and soldiers and the discrimination. You and many others have already made up your mind that SinnFein/IRA were nothing but murderers and the the police service and British Army were the good guys. You have lies ingrained into you, brainwashed by all the crap you have been told, its pointless trying to tell you truthfully the way it was here because you refuse to listen, refuse to accept that yes Your government was very wrong in its actions.

You can only see the wrongdoings of one side of the community, whilst leaving out the rest,

and yes I quite like that quote, another good quote I like is by the great man Bobby Sands ' Our revenge will be the laughter of our children'

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
reply to post by Freeborn

 

You really need to brush up on your Northern Irish history, most of what you say is grossly one sided and ignorant. Its people like you people who refuse to see that SinnFein represent the majority of the catholics here, that is why they were voted into power, that is why Martin McGuinness is the Deputy First Minister.

They certainly don't represent the majority of Northern Irish I have met, Catholic or Protestant.

You say you know a family who had to move because their son was datng a protestant? how long ago was this? recently? because I live in a nationalist area and my housemate/friend is a protestant englishman, he has never had any trouble here and he has lived here for the last 5 years.

It was in the 70's during The Troubles, you know, the times that you seem determined to bring back!

It is quite telling that you acknowledge that all is still not peachy in Northern Ireland.
The examples you give are all those horrible Loyalists bricking taxi's and dealing in drugs yet you portray the Nationalitist area's as exceptionally tolerant.
Your ignorance perpetuates the hatred.
You can not even see your bigotry so you will never be able to break free from it until you accept it.

The IRA did deal in drugs, and probably still do.
There have been convicted IRA terrorists arrested with Columbian drug cartels.
What the hell do you think they were doing there?
A spot of sight seeing?
And do you know why they threatened independant drug dealers?
Not to clean up the streets but because they were cutting into their profits.
Classic gangsterism!
And are you honestly trying to say that The IRA didn't run any protection rackets?
That they didn't extort money from people?
They were gangsters!

Of course there was massive discrimination against Catholics in Northern Ireland, you will never hear me deny that.
But the vast majority of advancements that have been made occurred when Nationalists abandoned the armed struggle and decided to negotiate peacefully.

The Nationalist cause would have continued to go nowhere if they had continued bombing innocent people.
Do you have so little understanding of English and British resolve?

You say if the army had left it would not have been the action of a responsible government

,

I stand by that.
There would have been a bloodbath.
Both sides were well armed and financed.
And whether you like it or not Northern Ireland is part of The United Kingdom Of Great Britain and as such there is no way any government would have allowed that sort of carnage to occur within it's own borders.

For one moment take a step away from it all and ty to imagine what would have happened if the troops had pulled out.

You express grief for the people who died on Bloody Sunday yet pass no comment on the thousands of innocents who died at the hands of the IRA.
You seem incredibly insensitive and uncaring for all those innocent who died, perhaps the fact that countless women and children were amongst those that were callously killed or maimed doesn't quite fit into your rose tinted, romantic view of Irish feedom fighters and so you choose to completely ignore their suffering.

I assure you, I am more than aware that the English / Brits have committed some horrendous acts upon the Catholic / Nationalist communities in Ireland over the centuries.

But to move forward it is important that all concerned parties recognise and accept the role that they themselves have played in Irelands bloody history, acknowledge it and move on.

It seems to me that the blinded, one sided, ignorant bigotry is alive and kicking in at least one small part of Derry!

and yes I quite like that quote, another good quote I like is by the great man Bobby Sands ' Our revenge will be the laughter of our children'

Bobby Sands was not a great man, he was a convicted terrorist.

A shame the mother's of all the innocent children the IRA murdered won't hear their children's laughter.
But I guess that means nothing to you!

[edit on 16/6/10 by Freeborn]

nasty what happened but you cannot blame the soldiers.

The soldiers were the Parachute regiment and anyone who has served in the British army (like me) knows you don´t send lunatic killing machines into sensitive situations.

Whoever decided to send them in knew what would happen.

Originally posted by bicnarok
nasty what happened but you cannot blame the soldiers.

The soldiers were the Parachute regiment and anyone who has served in the British army (like me) knows you don´t send lunatic killing machines into sensitive situations.

Whoever decided to send them in knew what would happen.

The Parachute Regiment is NOT made up of lunatics! The vast majority of the SAS is made up from re-badged men from their battalions and most people wouldnt brand them as nutters. Many other British Army soldiers have blood on their hands, the Green Jackets (The Rifles now) for instance after some of the guys killed the tourist in Cyprus, but you would label their unit in the same vein. The soldiers on that day were guilty of feeling that they were above the law and were swept up in the camaraderie and the heat of the moment but this is not an excuse to kill unarmed civilians.

reply to post by Freeborn


Oh please, the majority of catholics here voted for SinnFein, that is why they represent us in government. It is a FACT, just because you dont like it does not make it untrue.

So you are calling me a bigot because I support SinnFein? the appointed representatives of the catholic communities in government?

You claim that I am unsensitive and uncaring in regards to the innocent people of all religions that died here, when I have already said in other posts that I am sad that civilians have died on both sides, catholics and protestants, read through my previous posts in both bloody sunday threads and get your facts right before you throw accusations around.

The only onesided blinded bigotry here is the ones who continue to want war, I have stated this in other posts also, I do not support the breakaway factions of the paramilitaries who continue to want to fight and who want to drag us backwards.

SinnFein want peace and so do I. How does me wanting justice for the Bloody Sunday families make me in your view determined to bring the troubles back? how is me being happy that the British government have apologized make me determined to bring the troubles back? where do you get the idea that I want to bring the troubles back? I live here! I want nothing but peace, I want catholics and protestants to work together for a better future together, I want northern Ireland to be jointly ruled in government and be fairly represented by the community. So how dare you say that I am determined to bring the troubes back? all you are trying to do with your narrowminded views and spectator opinion is to cloud over the fact that your government felt the need to apologize for what they did here in Northern Ireland to catholics ( and we both know they dont take apologizing lightly ) now if the government had stuck to their previous lies that the killings on bloody sunday were justified then that would be wanting to bring the troubles back, but no, they told the truth.

Bobby Sands was a great man, nothing you ever say could or would change my view or many other catholics views on that matter, he died on hunger strike, he was an elected MP, voted for by the people , and he was POW. He was a great and brave man who stood up for what he believed in. Your narrowminded views on Bobby Sands and on Northern Ireland make me quite sick and feel quite sad, I shall refrain from reading anymore of the onesided tripe which you post as it is clear if people like you were in power in Northern Ireland then catholics would still be fighting for civil rights.

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


You are cherry picking points.

I have repeatedly stated that I acknowledge the killings were wrong.
I have repeatedly stated that I am aware of injustices carried out on the catholic communities in Northern Ireland.
I have also stated that I was raised Catholic myself.

If the truth of the actual facts distress you then I am sorry.

But the majority Catholic IRA were no idealistic freedom fighters who were fighting for an idyllic, imaginary socialist republic...they were murderers who were more concerned with making money, exactly the same as the UVF and UFF etc.
And yes, at times, The British Army.

No-one comes out of the horror story that is The Troubles whiter than white and smelling of roses.

And you fail to recognise the irony of quoting Mahatma Gandhi yet supporting Bobbie Sands and The IRA!

The British showed incredible restraint in Northern Ireland amidst a sea of violence and sectarian hatred, all at a time when Irish factions here in the US were pumping money and arms into what they naively saw as an honorable struggle for freedom.

They lost control just once, and even then it occurred under conditions of extreme provocation with bottle/stone/petrol bomb throwing rioters.

To criticize them for this one act is pathetic, and does nothing more than show how the Irish hold on to hatred and resentment in a way that only a Palestinian could appreciate.

I'll tell you this, if the US had been forced to deal with an internal situation as persistent and violent as Northern Ireland, our approach would have been more Israeli than British.

In many ways, Northern Ireland was the British Army's finest hour, and I salute them.

Can the British Propagandists plese read the following:



This goes some way into showing the extent of lies that was spread about the troubles in Northern Ireland.