Do not summon

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

It is tempting for people to argue, as many often do, that if it can't be explained, it probably doesn't exist! (i.e., if it doesn't fit their self-constructed model, then it's just not real.)

Take the idea that matter is made up of infinitely small, absolutely simple, indivisible pieces which was suggested by the Greek thinkers Leucippus and Democritus 100 years before Aristotle declared it NONSENSE - an idea that only carried REAL scientific weight in the last 200 years.

"Concepts which have proved useful for ordering things easily assume so great an authority over us, that we forget their terrestrial origin and accept them as unalterable facts. They then become labeled as 'conceptual necessities,' etc. The road of scientific progress is frequently blocked for long periods by such errors." - Einstein

Just some of the many theories that have been rejected outright by the scientific community over the years. until proven otherwise

Instantaneous meteor noises (evidence rejected because sound should be delayed by distance)
Mind-body connection (psychoneuroimmunology, doctors ridiculed any emotional basis for disease)
Perceptrons (later vindicated as Neural Networks)
Permanent magnet levitation ("Levitron" shouldn't have worked)

"The study of history is a powerful antidote to contemporary arrogance. It is humbling to discover how many of our glib assumptions, which seem to us novel and plausible, have been tested before, not once but many times and in innumerable guises; and discovered to be, at great human cost, wholly false." -Paul Johnson

Lets face it science is still in its infancy and because there is no *spontaneous reporting* of anomalous events and there is no known way at this point in history to measure or test paranormal phenomena ( because like UFO's and ball lightning the phenomena is NOT STATIC ) - its just an unfortunate fact of life the only evidence anyone is going to get is the testimony of the eyewitness/s and I for one enjoy reading accounts of above mentioned phenomena which are more than likely the direct result of some kind of esoteric electromagnetic effect – held together by electric and magnetic fields and the only way of testing this would be under strict laboratory conditions but in order to do this the scientists would have to hold the key ( the key being ) the recipe / chemical composition of this type of phenomena ?

I mean take OBE's for example - people were ridiculed for years as crackpots if / when they mentioned astral travelling / OBE's yet in 2007 studies conducted by researchers showed that experiences somewhat similar to OBEs could be induced by direct brain stimulation.

I am still not sure I believe in ghosts / spirits as such - I believe the Ouija board is no more than a tool that allows yours /others minds to focus - it creates a trance-like - meditative state which enables one to get in touch with their subconscious ( perhaps there are links to the dead through the subconscious who knows ) ? - what surfaces as a consequence of that " group think " depends on each and every person participating in the event ! When people gather in a church the same kind of " group think " occurs through prayer only instead of the focus being on dark negative / entities the focus is more on community and higher echelons of thought. So why not just pray instead ?

[edit on 30-5-2010 by destiny-fate]

[edit on 30-5-2010 by destiny-fate]

Allow me to deconstruct this misleading statement:

Originally posted by destiny-fate
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
[edit on 30-5-2010 by destiny-fate]

The appeal & problem with using cutesy generalizations like this is that it sounds good & catchy. However it is very much a magician's misdirection, & misleads less rigorous minds to the wrong conclusion.

If we are to believe in the validity of this statement, then nothing is truly forbidden to you. Anything you can imagine can be argued to exist without having to prove it.

However you are deliberately ignoring 1 important point. Any scenario might be possible BUT is it probable?

Is it possible that [insert object of your fantasy] exists? Lets just say Yes for the sake of this argument.

Is it probable it exists? Well that depends on how robust the proof is, isn't it? Or even if the evidence actually exists.

E.g. Lets say someone has the feeling that the Sun rises in the west tomorrow.

Has it ever done so in his lifetime? No.

Is it possible it can be done?
If it is based on the infinitesimal small chance of an alien UFO tugging the Sun around the other way, then yes it is possible.

However think about it, is it probable to happen? Based on countless past observations, it seems more probable that the Sun will carry on rising from the east tomorrow.

And hence why we ask to do a positive proof than a negative one, because it is much easier to show to everyone.

Sometimes the reason why some of us ask for proof is not because we do not believe, but rather that we want to believe.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by postmeme]

reply to post by postmeme


See that in in itself is interesting ? Our different perspectives

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Your interpretation :

The appeal & problem with using cutesy generalizations like this is that it sounds good & catchy. However it is very much a magician's misdirection, & misleads less rigorous minds to the wrong conclusion.

My interpretation :

The universe is comprised of an infinate number of amazing secrets and treasures just waiting to be revealed - an eternal quest that for those blessed with an enquiring mind will forever seek to find and unravel

And really - don't you think your interpretation applies TO LIFE IN GENERAL ? Some people are quite happy being spoon fed ?

Did you know Einstein only became interested in studying science and mathematics because he was given a magnetic compass by his father - he became fixated on the object in an attempt to try and understand how an ( INVISIBLE FORCE and that right there is the key ) - could make the needle move.

If we are to believe in the validity of this statement, then nothing is truly forbidden to you. Anything you can imagine can be argued to exist without having to prove it.

However you are deliberately ignoring 1 important point. Any scenario might be possible BUT is it probable?

Is it possible that [insert object of your fantasy] exists? Lets just say Yes for the sake of this argument.

Is it probable it exists? Well that depends on how robust the proof is, isn't it? Or even if the evidence actually exists.

E.g. Lets say someone has the feeling that the Sun rises in the west tomorrow.

Has it ever done so in his lifetime? No.

Is it possible it can be done?
If it is based on the infinitesimal small chance of an alien UFO tugging the Sun around the other way, then yes it is possible.

I am not having a go at you - so please do not take what I am about to write personally but years and years of ridicule HAS TAKEN IT'S TOLL ! Just because I believe in a CREATOR and the paranormal does NOT mean people have the right to assume I am an IDIOT but I see this kind of mindset on various forums time and time again - the blatant sarcasm and snide little remarks. Why do non believers assume that people like me do not have the capacity or intellect to question the validity of their own experiences ?

I am quite aware the whole universe is structured and governed by a complex set of immutable laws. Plato saw ultimate reality composed of two distinct "worlds" / dimensions of being. The world of physical objects in space and time is known through sense perception and ordinary thought. Apart from this is the metaphysical world of forms known only through philosophic reflection and dialectical interchange--a realm beyond ordinary experience and requiring special capabilities to apprehend.

Over the past decade the battle lines have been sharply drawn as atheists confront believers - evolutionists challenge creationists and our academic institutions continue to place intellect above creativity ( the arts ). As it stands there is a huge precipice that divides one dimension of thought from another - right brain versus left and the only way to bridge that divide is through the elimination of ignorant biased and outdated belief systems that exist within the substructure of our academic and spiritual institutions - people are totally deluding themselves if they think mankind has the balance right because in my personal opinion - we don't .

I have to add I appreciated your honesty when you wrote " Sometimes the reason why some of us ask for proof is not because we do not believe, but rather that we want to believe."

Which led me to wonder - what is it specifically you are interested in acquiring proof of ? and in what way would " getting that proof " impact on your life ?

While I agree that kids and others who are inexperienced in this stuff should never summon something on their own - I'm going to have to point out an error you made.

A Oujia Board is nothing but a tool. It can be used for good or bad, and it all falls upon the people using the board. I can promise you, after dealing with the paranormal for the past 10 years, there aren't a specific sect of demons that hang around specifically to jump through oujia boards. That's not the way it works.

There are just as many stories out there of benevolent entities being contacted through the use of that game as there are malevolent entities. To say that every use is a bad thing is a bit of an overstatement. I personally do not use one because I see no need. Penduluums and telepathic communciation are far more effective and the stuff I hunt barely has anything nice to say before it's banished back to where it came from.

Demons don't hang around waiting for people to use Oujia Boards. However, stupid kids get ahold of it and DO call to these things thinking they're all a joke or myths, so when a damned Balor pops in their living room and starts tearing # up - they pee their pants, start crying and declare "EVIL OUJIA BOARD!!!!" No.... it was their own stupidity.

Also, as far as the stuff "never leaving." Having had to basically become a hunter - I know ways to banish stuff which anyone can get their hands on and do with little effort. Protection and banishment are easy steps to take, but it's funny to me the disparity here.

You have the camp of people who don't beleive in demons but believe in angels and God.

You have the camp of people who believe in demons and angels, but don't believe in barriers, banishments, etc.

You have the camp of people who swear by banishments and such but don't believe in demons.

It all is really quite amusing to those of us who know the truth.

Demons are real. They are sentient entities from another existence which occasionally get pulled into our own. They are as varied in beliefs and personality as humans are. They cannot be controlled by you no matter how religious you are (which I think you pointed out - kudos.) BUT - deterrents and at worst case scenarios - they CAN be sent back to where the hell they came from.

But Oujia Boards are just tools. What is done with them is not the tool's fault. That's alsmost as crazy as saying guns are evil... lol - when I see a gun fly out of a room and pop someone while they're watching tv, I might change my mind, but until then I think (mind you - think) that a human has to squeeze a trigger somehwere..... right?