Japanese form human chain at US base

reply to post by vox2442


In response to the first issue of your post.

This is an answer to the question of whether Japanese youth learn about their country's role in the war:

Source: here

This was the first website that I came across though there are many more. Maybe in American schools for service member families, they learn about the war, but Japanese youth do not learn the truth, according to Japanese students and teachers alike. I also watched a documentary on the subject where they interviewed at random, several Japanese teenagers, 20 somethings and 30 somethings and not a single one knew of Japans role in the war. Many of them didn't even know that the world was at war during that time frame.

Moving right along...

To address the rest of your post, regardless of what the Japanese want, many Americans don't want to be protecting Japan, at our expense, while we can't even afford basic infrastructure, education for our children or other necessities. My commentary on this news article was merely to point out that Japan should shoulder her own burdens, especially if they don't want the base there, which they clearly don't regardless of whether they want it elsewhere in Japan. So, some want it to move within Japan? Just more cost to the US tax-payer which strengthens my argument in the first place. The point here, is that the Japanese are clearly not happy with our bases in Japan, else they would not form an extremely large human chain. Also, it does not do the average American any good for us to be in Japan, especially seeing how we can't afford it and the Japanese clearly aren't happy about what we are offering.

--airspoon

Note: I did not write the article, I only added my own commentary to the article about how I do not approve of the American empire seeing how it benefits nobody I know while at the same time, burdens all Americans that I know.

Originally posted by airspoon
.

1) I have no idea what they teach on base, nor do I care. I provided you with a link to the current crop of textbooks used in Japanese schools, translated into English, so that you could examine the content for yourself. Rather than do that, you take a random comment on - yahoo answers? Seriously, WTF? You posted some random internet guy who doesn't even know that the entire story of Nanking was brought back into the National - and International - eye BY THE JAPANESE MEDIA 40 BLOODY YEARS AGO, and that the same media has kept the story - and numerous others - from disappearing through constant investigative reporting. It's only in the last 10 years that Chinese researchers have been allowed to research the incident - and the major push for that was at the request of Japan's former PM Abe, who negotiated a joint panel of Japanese and Chinese historians to research the war. Here's a collection of links on that.

2) Something that Americans always seem to be ignorant of is that US bases abroad are not financed 100% by the USA. Japan pays roughly 70% of the costs, year in, year out, of maintaining and operating US facilities in Japan - and there are dozens of them. If bases are to be moved, as I've shown in my previous post, Japan must pay there as well. This is the case EVERYWHERE. The benefit, on the other hand, has been almost exclusively to America - if not to it's citizens, then certainly to the Armed Forces. The USA doesn't have bases where it doesn't want to have a strategic advantage. Since the end of WW2, the American presence in Japan has been about America's interests. Japan's interests are secondary - but that's hardly unique to Japan.



[edit on 16-5-2010 by vox2442]

[edit on 16-5-2010 by vox2442]

Forget the Japanese, I'm with whoever says we should get out. More to the point, I personally feel that the U.S. military should close their bases in roughly 90% of the countries we're currently in.

South Korea is the exception. Anyone who says they don't want us there really needs to look into their post-armistice policies regarding the 38th.

Seriously, why spend the money to maintain and operate military bases in areas where they clearly don't want us? To those that say we need the intel gathered from such theaters, I would say there are other means to get it... and besides, what's the point of having almost a dozen carrier battle groups if not to maintain a strong military presence in international waters spanning the globe? Each one represents almost a division's worth of Marines and more aerial and naval firepower than any two or three nations combined that they pass by.

Christ, we could almost make up our deficit in one year from the operational costs required to keep these bases running. As far as the countries that want us out, it's a win-win for us. We save billions in maintaining infrastructure, we get our troops stateside and we can relinquish our hold on the world's spot for #1 police force. If ever these countries need our assistance militarily after that, they can hope one of our flotillas are nearby otherwise, deal with the mess themselves.

reply to post by FreeSpeaker


Ok, so your saying we shouldn't leave Japan because of China.

I say who gives a damn? It's their business, not ours. Get our men and women out of areas where they are not needed. (or wanted)

reply to post by vox2442


First off, I sourced the first thing that came up on google. All it really takes is a simple google search to see many, and I mean many, other sources on the subject. Furthermore, I looked at your source and it didn't tell me much, other than that the current students are learning a few things about the war in the Pacific. That really means nothing in the context of my original statement. The fact is, Japanese youths have not been taught about the atrocities committed by their forefathers, regardless of whether the current students are taught that a war took place in the Pacific.

In fact, I was just told that on the DVD disc of the movie movie, "Letters from Iwo Jima", there is a pretty good documentary about how the youths of Japan are/were (meaning that many generations of Japanese youths have not been taught) not even educated about the implications of their role in the war, to include just how enormous the war actually was and also how and why it was won. So, regardless of your sourced material that doesn't say much within the context of my original statement, it would seem that many generations of Japanese have grown up completely oblivious of the details of the great war.

Also, nowhere ever did anyone in this thread say that the US pays 100% of the costs for overseas bases. Your now making assumptions to try and cover an inadequate argument. The fact is that the US has extraordinary costs regarding overseas bases and the benefits certainly do not justify the costs for the American people, IMO. I can guarantee that the US has far more costs for a US military overseas base than the host nation of that base. This is ridiculous, especially seeing we do not benefit in anyway. If the people of Japan want safety and/or security then they can allow their government to tax their citizens to build an adequate defense or pay the Americans for that defense, in a way that benefits those who pay the price in the first place. It really is that simple. Japan's security is not worth my children's education or even the forgotten pothole down the street, IMO.

With that being said, beggars can't be choosers for those who want the base but would rather it moved elsewhere in their country. Such a move would cost the American tax-payer an extremely large amount of money, regardless of whether the Japanese chip in, when we don't even have enough to take care of ourselves. The gravy train is about to come to a halt.

Now moving along, for those Japanese citizens that don't want the bases in their country, many Americans stand with you. To those Japanese citizens who want the base/s moved to another location in Japan, I say to them, "we are tired of footing the bill for something that doesn't benefit us. It is now your turn to pony up your own money and man-power". For those Japanese citizens who want the base/s right where it/they is/are, I say to them, "sorry but we just can't afford to shoulder your burden any longer, it is time for you to pony up your own money".

It is the American tax-payer paying the burden for others when we can't afford it and many Americans are tired of it. What part of that do you not understand?

--airspoon

Originally posted by john124
reply to post by dolphinfan

 

The South Koreans don't want us there

Really??? I thought recent military drills and N.Korea's recent provocations stressed the need for US troops to remain there as a deterrent to the North against invading.

Don't you think its rather convenient that all these countries that have their own national security, and forces, and who have not been threatened for years, suddenly say they need help so the US has leverage to extend its presence throughout the world and dominate other countries, who obviously did not speak freely in their own capacity at that moment but said this due to direct orders from the US/UK world mafia chiefs.


That much I can figure out on my own.

At the end of this little thing called WWII, I understand we kicked their butt because they jumped on us for no reason. For that reason along, we should be able to put a base anywhere we D**N well please.

Japanese tax-payers are paying a lot for those bases. It's not all boo-hoo for American tax-payer. Frankly the locals are pissed off with all the noise, all the dumb-ass military guys getting drunk and fighting locals and the fact that they are paying for a certain cercentage of it with their own wages.

reply to post by airspoon



The Japanese attacked the U.S. FIRST and crippled our fleet ONLY 70 years ago. They are sneaky and not to be totally trusted. They would attempt to take over the U.S again today in a heart beat if they could. Their smiles are false. If you remember, after the Japs attacked us in Pearl Harbor they occupied all the oil producing areas. For all we know they, along with other countries, could be involved with the rig explosion in the gulf to prevent the U.S.A. from abundant production of their own oil; moreso after finding out Obama approved more off coast oil drilling in the U.S. No other country can put an embargo or manipulate the U.S. if we heavily produce oil in our own water ways. One never knows what the Japs and other countries are up to and how many spys we have that live in the United States with only their foreign country's best interest in mind. They want to see the U.S. fail. They want to see patriotism decline, they want to instill shame on U.S. past and how we went about winning wars so they can ATTACK us just as we are all sitting around crying and hugging each other being taught wrongly we are not supposed to ever hurt anyone EVER, deprogramming us, in turn leaving the U.S vulnerable to being CRUSHED. All these things we are told to now be ashamed of are qualities we used to dominate other countries and become the number one super power in the world. Do not be fooled into thinking they hold the United States in OUR best intererst, they hold it in THEIR best interest. It would be foolish not to maintain presence in Japan. We NEED troop presence to maintain our number one super power status. Just as a corrections officer would be extremely foolish to let his guard down in a room full of hardened criminals just because he interacts with them daily and knows some on a first name basis with a grin and a nod here and there, our solidiers support our businesses who in turn trade with foreign businesses, grinning and nodding...they have a job to do themselves and should never let their guard down.

I think it's worth the money spent having U.S. presence in every country with as many bases as needed. I too also believe our borders should be protected. As an alternative solution, the U.S. could work hand in hand with militias to protect our borders while maintaing heavy military presence in other countrys.

Get off youre high horse! USA was very happy that the Japanese attacked pearl harbour as it was their in-road to entering the war!

Beyond a doubt Pearl Harbor was President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s back door into the European War. Roosevelt’s decisions and actions were very much so, deliberate and calculated, in order to lead a victorious Allied Powers in World War II. By provoking the Japanese and the foreknowledge of an attack on Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt along with his top advisors and the Federal Government are truly to blame for the lost of American life’s and American property. 7 December 1941 shall be a day in American history, which will be remembered as “a day of deceit.”

Originally posted by airspoon
First off, I sourced the first thing that came up on google. All it really takes is a simple google search to see many, and I mean many, other sources on the subject. Furthermore, I looked at your source and it didn't tell me much, other than that the current students are learning a few things about the war in the Pacific. That really means nothing in the context of my original statement. The fact is, Japanese youths have not been taught about the atrocities committed by their forefathers, regardless of whether the current students are taught that a war took place in the Pacific.

Quick question: at what age do students in the USA learn about the war crimes and atrocities committed by US soldiers in Viet Nam? Do they learn about them at all? Follow up question: Why would you go with the first source you found, as opposed to looking for something more, i don't know, factual?

My source shows what is being taught today - in middle school. That actually means quite a bit in the context of your comment, because those people are, in fact, youths being taught about what happened in the war. Get it?

As far as the youth of 20 years ago - they're hardly youths anymore. And I'll bet you a dollar more 20-somethings and 30 somethings and 40-somethings know more about the war and Japan's role in it than Americans know about the US role in 'Nam or Nicaragua or Honduras or Somalia.

Originally posted by airspoon
In fact, I was just told that on the DVD disc of the movie movie, "Letters from Iwo Jima", there is a pretty good documentary about how the youths of Japan are/were (meaning that many generations of Japanese youths have not been taught) not even educated about the implications of their role in the war, to include just how enormous the war actually was and also how and why it was won. So, regardless of your sourced material that doesn't say much within the context of my original statement, it would seem that many generations of Japanese have grown up completely oblivious of the details of the great war.

I've seen that doc. All it shows is that Japanese students don't have the level of detailed knowledge of specific battles you'd find in a US college student studying US history or a middle aged history buff. Everyone knows details of the war, and everyone knows the implications - but remember that the implications of the war for someone living in Japan are significantly different than the implications of the war for someone living in Oklahoma. The war - and Japan's role in it - is a constant, ever present element of foreign relations and current politics, and has been for generations.

Originally posted by airspoon
It is the American tax-payer paying the burden for others when we can't afford it and many Americans are tired of it. What part of that do you not understand?

I guess the part where I get lost on that is the part where the USA demanded that the bases be here, and the part where the USA has worked intently to keep Japan from changing it's constitution (written by America) that forbids having a de jure military, and also a little bit on the part where the USA fought tooth and nail over moving a small percentage of those forces to Guam, and also on the part where Japan has to keep paying billions of dollars a year to keep the bases here. I also get a bit lost on the assertion that US taxpayers are tired of it, considering that US taxpayers keep electing the officials that make all of these decisions, and keep supporting the foreign policy decisions that make the bases a necessity.

What part of that don't YOU understand?

Don't misunderstand, the Japanese don't want US troops out of their country, they just want them out of their towns! There have been too many cases in the recent years, where American soldiers caused all kinds of problems, sometimes they beat up locals and even rape children. Would you want something like that going on in your community? Just search the internet, there are hundreds of horrible stories, covering the incidents in Okinawa.
And that's not a problem specific just to US army, wherever there is a military base in a highly populated region, there are bound to be problems.
So, for the sake of Japanese people, I hope the base gets relocated sooner than later.

Originally posted by Key-Minder
reply to post by airspoon

 

The Japanese attacked the U.S. FIRST and crippled our fleet ONLY 70 years ago. They are sneaky and not to be totally trusted. They would attempt to take over the U.S again today in a heart beat if they could. Their smiles are false. If you remember, after the Japs attacked us in Pearl Harbor they occupied all the oil producing areas.

That sounded quite racist. Stop generalising so much man.

It may only be 70 years ago, but this ain't world war 2 anymore.

[edit on 17-5-2010 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by FreeSpeaker

When was I defending the deaths caused by the a-bomb, I was stating the Japanese knew they were taking a great risk in attacking the US, and even managed to screw up by delivering their decleration of war too late. Do you even know the estimates of Japanese deaths caused by the napalming of Japanese cities before the a-bomb?

Firebombing of Japan

The Japanese also commited atrocities against the chinese some consider worse even than what the germans did to the jews. Basically we can argue about atrocites commited by all sides of WW2 so I don't feel I need to "do better" or "defend" anything I said.

You are justifying the murder of thousands of innocent civilians by throwing all the other atrocities which occurred in WWII. Nice try.

Murder of civilians is just that, murder. You can't justify it because others also kill civilians.

Let me explain, just because Americans kill Americans doesn't give the Al-Qaeda alliance the right to kill innocent American civilians. Or just because Mexicans kill Americans doesn't give someone the right to kill innocent Mexican civilians.

Get what I mean, old argument, very old..

I think it's pretty good.

You can also add the Bataan Death March to the mix if you want. Japanese soldiers weren't too friendly to the Brits in Singapore, either. During/after the Doolittle Raid, the Japanese killed about 250,000 Chinese civilians as pay-back.

How's that?

How's that? That is justifying the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians by showing that other civilians were also killed? WTF, are you kidding me?

The murder of innocent civilians can never be justified, get what I mean? Just because the Japanese soldiers killed Chinese, or Europeans, or whom ever, the soldiers should be targeted, not civilians, other wise you have no right to say Osama bin Laden is the bad guy.

According to your argument, he is a very good guy, because he kills American civilians, due to American soldiers killing Muslims civilians.

How is that?

reply to post by signal2noise

reply to post by vox2442

Quick question: at what age do students in the USA learn about the war crimes and atrocities committed by US soldiers in Viet Nam?

I don't disagree with you. At no time did I ever suggest that somehow Americans are better than Japanese. In fact, the thread is about Japan and my statement was in response to Japanese youth and their knowledge of Japan's role in WWII. Ifit would have been about Vietnam and the discussion leaned in the direction necessarry, I would have then suggested the same thing about Vietnam. You are now trying to shift the argument. Again this has nothing to do with either the context of the topic discussed or the topic period.

Follow up question: Why would you go with the first source you found, as opposed to looking for something more, i don't know, factual?

I actually just posted the first site I came across due to time. I wasn't posting the source as fact, rather I was posting the source to back up an already stated fact. It is assumed that anyone reading this is doing so at a computer or computer like device with access to google.

My source shows what is being taught today - in middle school. That actually means quite a bit in the context of your comment, because those people are, in fact, youths being taught about what happened in the war. Get it?

It means actually nothing within the context of my original statement. You posted a source suggesting that current students learn about the war in the Pacific. This tells us nothing about what they learn of their country's role in the war and it also says nothing for what the generations before the current generation were or were not taught in school about the war.

As far as the youth of 20 years ago - they're hardly youths anymore. And I'll bet you a dollar more 20-somethings and 30 somethings and 40-somethings know more about the war and Japan's role in it than Americans know about the US role in 'Nam or Nicaragua or Honduras or Somalia.

Again, your trying to defer the argument by shifting into another topic. I don't deny that Americans aren't taught in school about Vietnam and Somalia or the negative role that the US had in the Vietnam War or any other war for that matter. It really has nothing to do with whether Japanese students learn about their country's role in WWII. The focus here was on Japan.

I've seen that doc. All it shows is that Japanese students don't have the level of detailed knowledge of specific battles you'd find in a US college student studying US history or a middle aged history buff.

I have not seen it so I couldn't say one way or another. I was only going by what someone had just told me and I specifically stated it as such.

I guess the part where I get lost on that is the part where the USA demanded that the bases be here, and the part where the USA has worked intently to keep Japan from changing it's constitution (written by America) that forbids having a de jure military, and also a little bit on the part where the USA fought tooth and nail over moving a small percentage of those forces to Guam, and also on the part where Japan has to keep paying billions of dollars a year to keep the bases here. I also get a bit lost on the assertion that US taxpayers are tired of it, considering that US taxpayers keep electing the officials that make all of these decisions, and keep supporting the foreign policy decisions that make the bases a necessity.

What part of that don't YOU understand?

Again, I don't deny any of that and never have. What my government wants and what I want are two completely different things. I can not and will not speak on behalf of what my government wants, I can only speak on behalf of what I want. It really is a moot point. I understand everything you have said and your responding to my posts with things that are completely different to my posts.

I had originally posted my feelings and the feeling of many of my fellow citizens and you respond with off the wall responses that have no meaning to my original post/s. If that's your opinion, then fine, I can absolutely respect anyone's opinion, however, don't tell me my opinion is wrong and then go on and try to explain why you think so by posting things that have absolutely no bearing or meaning in regards to my posts. They are apples to oranges.

Thank you for your posts.

--airspoon

Originally posted by nite owl
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

thats right, your tax dollars. im talking about other countries. reread what i said. And while your doing that, check out the washington post and see where funds for katrina went. I think they need to wipe our debt clean or we pull out of there. It's time other countries paid for our protection.

Stop thinking like a 12 years old man. Do you really think that the US sets bases all over the world and helps a whole lot of places for free?

Learn something... no country does things for free for no one, big fat period.

So why do you people in the USA care about that ? You can't make your government do what you want, and the Japanese - the same. "Voting" is a joke. Nothing happens if the Sith Lords don't allow it.

The average German - was not a murderer, he did not want to kill the average Englishman or Russian. Yet - WW2 happened. Enjoy "civilization" (slavery)

By the reasoning of some posters, Britain ought to be allowed to keep a base in any territory held by the Nazis at any point in the second world war, any territory held by Mussolinis nitwits, and any other places where the supremacist legions held or hold sway (that would include anywhere in america where swastikas are flown or hung in homes) since thier sins against Britain are enourmous, and happened only a few decades ago... NONSENSE!
Continuing hatred and mistrust is what got us to the point of the second world war in the first place, and Im sick of apparantly intelligent people embracing the ignorance of hereditary hate... Its disgusting that we havent evolved more than this intellectualy in the interviening years. If Japan wants rid of the US bases there, its probably because they dont agree with what America is doing NOW , rather than any BS about whats happened before! In my opinion, both the UK and the US need to get a grip on the facts as they stand. Namely , "YOUR FOREIGN POLICIES ARE MAKING ENEMIES OF YOUR FRIENDS!" .
Its a harsh reality, but you cannot argue with fact. Its bold as brass staring us in the face. Western warmongering of recent years, has removed us from the moral high ground, and having pulled ourselves of the pedestal we were on, we are now hearing from people we watched over carefuly , with honour, with care, who believe that we have changed.

reply to post by Key-Minder


The Japanese did attack us first however, we practically begged for it. The Japanese knew that they were eventually going to have to go to war with us. At that time, the US had declared itself neutral, though we didn't abide by the rules of neutrality. Instead, we continued to ship supplies and weapons to Japan's enemies, in sheer defiance to neutrality laws.

Some argue that TPTB wanted desperately for America to be attacked, as to give us an excuse to enter the war that the American public wanted nothing to do with. These people, including myself, making a very compelling argument that is extremely hard to refute.

Also, you suggest that it was only 70 years ago and so wasn't long enough to start trusting them again. I happen to disagree with that statement. 70 years is a relatively long time, seeing how all of the decision makers of Japan, from that time, are mostly dead - if not all dead. The new batch of Japanese have little or no connection to their fascist siding forefathers.

I think Japan is one of the countries that we least need to worry about.

--airspoon