The Arizona Bill on ILLEGALS, Answer Me This?

I think the guy just needs to be sent back. I doubt you're going to be able to get much out of the guy if he was forced to pay damages. The problem with him just being sent back though is that most likely, he'll just end up hopping back over. We need a legitimate force to actually guard our borders before we make any progress. Until then, I figure you'll end up arresting another 1000 illegal criminals.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
The way you describe the situation it seems like the best thing to do is send this criminal back, why should we pay for his incarceration etc.?

That is a terrible idea. If actual crimes other than being in the US illegally are committed (e.g. murder, rape, theft) then they need to be incarcerated and punished in the United States otherwise they'll be kicked out and return a few days later. You people seem to think it is nigh impossible to cross our borders. I've seen chicken plants raided by ICE, 700 people bused back to Mexico and nearly everyone of them back at their job the following Monday. If we don't want to pay for years of coddling violent illegal immigrants criminals then we can build cheaper work camps.

reply to post by rcwj1975


The problem i have is you are not going after the employer, which means it isnt really the mex's fault. Kinda like entrapment. The employer is the one breaking the law first, sending the mex back will only delay the problem.
Now when you pull over a mex, he will know you are going to bust him, send him back so why shouldnt he just fight??? Shoot you and anybody else in the way?? The longer this law stands the killing will increase.
I bet the police will soon see the ignorance of not going after the employer, when deaths rise.
Starting a race war can only be bad news all around.
I might add that the land we are talking about was stolen from the mex's anyhow, just ask any indian. THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO BE THERE!!
Remember this, a desperate man is the most dangerous of men.

reply to post by rcwj1975


The bad part is that even if they are deported, they will just turn around and sneak back in as soon as they can. The problem needs to be handled on the boarder, and handled rather harshly at the outset in order to make examples of illegal aliens. I'd go as far as to say that coyotes that are caught should be shot on the spot.

In Europe they profile American tourists and ask for their papers. We are a melting pot and it would be a little more difficult. If we are found to be in Mexico illegally we are deported. It is the law. If the Federal Government is not going to follow its own laws (the good ones at least) then someone, ie state & local officials, must. They are called illegals. If the Federal Government calls for Amnesty/Citizenship for illegals (some of them are here only temporary, though) then that is another story. If this Federal law is ignored, can we ignore others?

[edit on 28-4-2010 by Doctor G]

I just want to add a point of perspective here.

But before I do, I want to congratulate the OP on excellent policeman work (not police officer, there is a difference) anyway.

The point I ma making is that in Mexico you apply for status AFTER you arrive

I myself entered Mexico legally as a tourist, and changed my status once I was there. I now live there legally (I am british) by US standards this method of entry by intention was Illegal, but in mexico, that's the way it is done

When I engaged with with my wife, we were looking at ways she could come to live in the UK. One of the points she raised was why don't I just come there and we can apply once I am there.

It took several conversations to explain that you have to apply for status in YOUR HOME COUNTRY before traveling.

it finally sunk in.

So yes there are those criminal elements who will come to the US to so just that. but there are the millions of others who just want a chance at work and a more lucrative life. I won't say better life, as life in Mexico is pretty full and enjoyable, family friends social etc etc. but the salaries suck in a disproportionate way!

So for the most, honest, probably reasonably educated, but maybe they do believe that you can just arrive and get your status, this is the land of the free after all!, but then reality sinks in, and for a people whos pride and face, is similar to that of the japanese! return in failure is not an option.

Education on immigration policy is maybe a good thing and cheaper than trying stop illegal immigration

Why not set up an office on the border towns. to process these people who want to come. If they are honest and just want work then fine. The people that are left running the border you know are the ones who you really don't want in your country. And full agree that they should be deported.

But know that there are still millions more people who chose NOT to go to the US, but to stay and make a real go of Mexico. In in the major cities now you should see the rate of development. it is almost like being in the US in everyway.

This discussion could go on forever, until the US finds and understand a real way of dealing with this issue.

Historically i cannot play the high horse card. if you arrived before 1910 you're OK, after that sorry we're full

I also understand in today NWO world you need to protect the society you have built from being overloaded, but are they overloading really?

I hear lots about Mexicans taking jobs away from tax paying americans. But in the main, and just like in the UK, are there really that many amercians that would willingly take the jobs that the Illegals fullfil! I'm not so sure

Just as a final example. I met one guy in El Salvador, who was the maintenance planning supervisor for the major airline in the area. He quit his job to go to the USA because he though he could make more money that way. Educated guy with a future, but this is the must have it NOW generation, the generation that put us in the financial mess we are in. So instant gratification. Great if you are in a place that can provide, if you're not, then you will do anything you can to get it, because you KNOW that you are just as good as the people north of the border. and that my friends is the truth.

So yes I would be concerned about racial profiling, but that seems to be de rigeur at the moment. But it is the same in Latin America. I got scored by some woman whos pamphlet I would not accept. She told me just to take it back to Beverley hills with me!! Beverly freaking hills!!! I'm from an English industrial city for gods sake. So thanks yanks, you have singly made it more difficult for any white guy to travel in Latin America. but that is THEIR racial profiling too!

What goes around come around

Man there is a lot to say on this subject!

reply to post by SpacePunk


do you really have any evidence of that, or is it just what you heard and have come to beleive.

Its a little like say rehabilitation of prisoners just doesn't work because as soon as they get free they just re-offend!

reply to post by rcwj1975



S&F, I'm sure this story can be told throughout this nation.

Thank's for sharing, and make sure you have good PC, don't wanna get labeled as a racist. Ironic isn't it?

Peace

Originally posted by rcwj1975
As many on ATS know I am a Law Enforcement Officer in Georgia and have been keeping an eye on the many threads posted about the new Arizona ILLEGAL Immigration Bill. Reading so many posts you see such a broad spectrum of beliefs, ideas, emotions, etc...but I haven't noticed many commenting on the following.

As a LEO I need Probable Cause or atleast Articutable Reasonable Suspicion to make a traffic stop or stop someone on the street. The Arizona Bill fear is that cops will profile and stop "hispanics" for just simply looking hispanic and forget about PC or ARS. Is that a valid fear, sure. There are people of ALL professions who simply suck at their jobs and tend to break rules to do things THEIR way, BUT what about those of us who do the job right and do come across ILLEGAL aliens?

Case in point. I mentioned on another thread that the other day I stopped a 2009 Ford Mustang doing 89 in a 55 and the driver happened to be "hispanic". Now the driver could not produce a valid drivers license, BUT handed me these awesome FAKE International Drivers Licenses they get for $50 here in Atlanta. Now after a few checks it was confirmed he was not licensed to drive the vehicle so he was arrested. Now, this driver is 24 years old working at Tyson Chicken driving a $30,000 car...ok fine, but then while searching his person I find a Social Security Card in his wallet and the card ended up being stolen and this scumbag was using and DESTROYING the credit of an elderly woman in the area, while he was thriving. Anyway, the car was impounded and I charged him, taking him to the jail. So I ask you folks...as a LEO KNOWING (100%) that this guy is not only a criminal...he IS an ILLEGAL alien from Mexico...should I and my State have the power to make sure he is deported back? Or should I do what we have been doing for years....call ICE and tell them what we have, only to be told they are not interested? Sounds like AZ was sick of hearing this answer for everyone they wanted to get out of their cities.

Someone, PLEASE give me a legitimate answer as to why local police and other agencies should NOT be allowed to deal with these guys/gals directly and get them out of here. What reasoning could you possibly come up with when the stop was legit, the arrest was legit, the lack of citizenship CONFIRMED, and he/she IS caught doing criminal deeds? You don't need to be a "fed" to check the status of citizenship....that is called an excuse by the Government to make the rest of the populace actually believe locals can't enforce this BS!

EDIT TO ADD: He had NO passport, NO visa, NO nothing....and yes he did admit he paid a coyote $200 to come across somewhere in TX....

[edit on 4/28/2010 by rcwj1975]

Don't you understand ? America has already taken on to much water.
She's listing and about to slip beneath the cold waves.
This is how they buffaloed us thirty to forty years ago. This is one of the many remedy's that should have been applied then. And add up to far to little to late now anyway.
Now it amounts to one bean for everyone to squabble over, so it almost looks as though someone tried to do something about it. When even a whole hill of beans would n't help.
Nothing goes on unless it is illusory and ineffective. They have had their
way and they will continue to have their way. Who ever they are? They're so far ahead of the general pop, the GP thinks it's in the lead.

In a small seminar a few years ago.

A police officer was there to explain to his audience the difference between his job and the courts.

He was advocating for stronger - enforceable laws - and plugging up loopholes in the justice system.

As he stated: A Police Officers job is to APPREHEND through legal means the law breaker. Contain him until he/she is released (handed over) to the proper authority.

So - as a Police Officer - you should know "APPREHEND & CONTAIN" is your primary job.

Judging and Sentencing is not.

Originally posted by Wildbob77
Personally, I think that he should be given a trial.

If found guilty, he should have to pay his fine, do his time and then immediately be deported.

I think that he should have to wait a minimum of 5 years before he would be eligible to get a visa to come to this country legally.

Trials are for Legal Citizens. If you get a trial you are being afforded rights which as an illegal you do not have.

OP, yes, imho you should be able to ship him back and let the elderly woman kick him in the nads a few times before you do. What a piece of dirt scumbag...

Originally posted by DerbyCityLights


Trials are for Legal Citizens. If you get a trial you are being afforded rights which as an illegal you do not have.

The Constitution guarantees the Right of the Individual.

It says nothing about being a Citizen.

"If a pathway to enforce a law exists that does not violate an individual's freedoms, then the law cannot be deamed unconstitutional based on discrimination alone. The presumption of innocence must be afforded to this country's law enforcement officials as well." Chief Justice Rehnquest

reply to post by sremmos

"If a pathway to enforce a law exists that does not violate an individual's freedoms, then the law cannot be deamed unconstitutional based on discrimination alone. The presumption of innocence must be afforded to this country's law enforcement officials as well." Chief Justice Rehnquest

reply to post by Annee


Plus at the time of the constitution most of the SW was part of mexico anyway

basically they see it as their land anyway! I don't see that changing any time soon

Originally posted by JakiusFogg
reply to post by Annee

 

Plus at the time of the constitution most of the SW was part of mexico anyway

basically they see it as their land anyway! I don't see that changing any time soon

True - - the US has always had a relationship with Mexico.

I doubt the loudest opponents of Mexican migrants - - - live and/or work any where near the border.

They are forcing a Black Market - - - Tunnel Vision is dangerous.

They do not just take jobs nobody wants.

My friends just lost their house and had to leave the state. They lived here their whole lives. Her husband is in construction. His employer would send the illegals out on a job and not him. He lost job after job due to this. The employer law they have here is a joke.

His wife is in retail , and with the market the way it is , there was no jobs. They lost everything and are now in another state trying to start over in their 40's.

He was a hard worker, he would drive two hours to a job and back. Time after time, he watched these guys working under min. wage go out and he got nothing. The people that hire these guys bid low on a job to get it and then use illegals to make a profit. Yes, they do take our jobs.

OP, I agree with you. You should have the rite to be able to do something about this guy that is illegal. It is in no way profiling.
Reasonable to cause to pull over, suspicion of being illegal. He needs to do time here for the crime, then be sent back .

Originally posted by sremmos
rcwj1975, good to see you again.

I'm one of those who supports immigration enforcement, but at the same time, I don't support "papers please" without probable cause.

I don't think a police officer should be allowed to walk up to me on the street for no reason (assuming I'm NOT creating probable cause with my actions, if I am it's a different story) and demand ID at the threat of detainment.

I do believe that if someone is legitimately stopped through real probable cause and not just "I want to stop that guy because he's a pedestrian" (eg random ID checks to 'get lucky') then yes, of course you should be able to move them over to the appropriate federal authorities (border patrol, customs, ICE, whoever is appropriate).

My problem with Arizona is that I really do believe it's going to be abused heavily and that if police are allowed to stop you and papers please you for 'good faith' suspicion that you are committing the crime of being illegal, it basically gives them the ability to stop and detain anyone who's not carrying their birth certificate.

Sure, I'm white, it'd be harder to justify 'good faith' but all the officer has to say is that he goes off behavior, he can claim I was 'nervous' as I walked by him, etc etc etc and then just say that since he's not a racist, of course he thought I could be illegal too.

I think this is a dangerous law for that reason, I think it puts too much 'arrest power' in the police in that it lets you detain someone for not having a birth certificate and all you have to do is argue that it was in 'good faith'.

I know if I was in Arizona and got 'held' until I could provide a birth certificate, if it was the wrong time of day, it would take several hours at least.

I fully agree with this statement. Luckily I live in a state where I do not have to carry I'd by law. Everyone isn't so lucky. Yes the having to produce I'd thing is rediculous.

As far as the OP, in the case he presented I support local authority being able to handle it. Problem is all such cases are not as cut and dry. In fact I would call these cases the minority. So yes while it would help a little, if the officers are always working in the boundaries of the law, the law wont have great impact.

Now if profiling and lack of probable cause lead the way then Hispanics better look out. I could see it furthering blatent profiling which does occur.

Ive spoke of it before they have something around here called 'taskforce' Thursday were for around a 2-4 hour period task and city cops combine in one area and stop as many cars and people walking as possible. Check IDs, illegal search and the like. I myself was illegally searched and they never even asked for ID! Thankfully there were no issues. The cop said it was about a robbery up the street on you guessed it Thursday.

This is common knowledge around here. It is a illegal joint profiling operation out in the open. So when things like this are happening in my backyard, I have no doubt that such operations will be conducted on a wider scale in AZ because of this law.

reply to post by Annee


I'm not sure about that I know the like of Atlanta and Chicago have BIG Latino populations, and are amongst the favored destinations for job seeking Mexicans

Why that is I don't know!

maybe they figure they will get less attention than in CA, TX or NM even AZ maybe.

But I am pretty sure that the locals are no please about it.

Was recently in Miami, and I tried to give it some perspective to myself. ad the VAST majority of people there are Latino, I walked in to a 7/11 and bought some cigarettes in Spanish! Now I live in Mexico so this is not problem for me, but I though what the hell is going on here. Would I be please if I had to buy my stuff in England speaking Urdu, or Hindi, so I totally get why people are pissed off. But is this not just the nature of the southern states.

I mean the rule of the treaty of Hidalgo don't help

reply to post by amatrine


Hi Amartine

I completely sympathize with your friends, and wish then the best, I agree it is wrong that companies so this, but is it the fault of the Illegals, whose only mission is to gain cash.

OK I agree that if they were not there, then this situation would not have evolved, but it has, and the companies perpetuation this does not help one bit.

But can you seer that this law, or series of laws, as advised by the Mexican government will, will put anyone of a Latino appearance at the mercy of constant and perpetual harassment, even if legal or indeed Americans themselves.

it is akin to the situation of the blacks getting constantly harassed by the police for being gang member

But on the same point I know it is a difficult job, and very uneasy work for the guys and gals of the police trying to enforce this. I just think it is the wrong approach for a situation that just will not go away.

Historically, or logistically, I really do not know what is the way forward/