Police shot man with 50,000-volt Taser after he suffered epileptic fit in gym

Originally posted by ReVoLuTiOn76
reply to post by angrymomma

 

Look at it this way. This guy was at the gym and had a seizure. He was probably ripped and on creatine or steroids. Normal restraining methods wouldn't be efficient enough to properly subdue this man.

Also don't think I always side with the cops. Normally I'd be on your side, but this time I do not see any wrong doing.

How do you know he was on steroids? Your assuming things to satisfy your BS comment. Get your facts straight before posting your mindless jargon.

reply to post by Shark VA84


How about some links on grand mall seizures then:
en.wikipedia.org...

www.wrongdiagnosis.com...

epilepsy.about.com...
How to assist a person during one!

Many people worry about the individual swallowing or biting their tongue during the seizure. While this may be of concern, never place your fingers in someone’s mouth during their seizure. Not only could this harm the individual by causing injury to their jaw or obstructing their airway, you could also be injured by getting your hand bitten.

Note the risk of being bitten occurs when your hands are in their mouths which is sometimes needed. So if they claimed he was trying to bite them in a different way, they're most likely fabricating a story to try and make the tasering look acceptable.

Which its not as these are supposedly trained emergency team individuals who have learnt how to deal with grand mals already.

I'd normaly be the first person to say this is out of order, i know a few people with epilepsy, from mild to severe seizures happening frequently.

However i've never heard of anyone punching and biting people because of a seizure.

I've heard of people being bitten because they've put thier fingers in the mouth of the person, and i've heard of people getting knocked whilst trying to hold people that are having a seizure.

This though describes it as an attack on the paramdics whilst having the seizure, which i must admit i've not heard of. That's not to say it can't happen of course, but i wouldn't know.

I do not think that is wrong to restrain people with certain conditions, (not epilepsy), i mean you still can't have members of the public being hurt, however my biggest grieviance is why the hell a couple of officers cannot use restraint techniques any more.

Why is it all about the Tazer now? Don't they teach cops restraining moves any more?

I've always said that the police should have to do a year or so in the care industry first, they might just handle their calls with a litle more empathy and understanding.

If it's clear the guy has had a seizure, and this could be another one....don't let yourself become a victim, give them some space for gods sake!

Seizures don't last all day....help him when it's over...not fry him!

CX.

It shocks me to see what shocking conclusions some people come to without any supporting evidence. Saying that someone deserves this brutal treatment because they had the nerve to be in a Gym, so they must have been pumped up is just the sort of thing a child would say. I once went into a Gym, I am not ripped, on steroids, a bodybuilder, I went in and came out after delivering a message, so you would presume that I am Mr Universe because I was in there. It may happen to you one day and you would be saying different then, he is a fellow Human being.

The Paramedics BROKE the first rule of treatment, they are taught to assess the danger element of a situation before attempting treatment ( my brother is a Paramedic ). This includes their own safety and other members of the public, they are supposed to remove others in this situation, not the patient.

Secondly they would have been fully aware of what was happening, especially if the patient had been wearing a medical alert bracelet or neckchain ( which I suspect was the case with his Epelepsy ). It was not a police situation in the first place, whether he attended of his own volition or was called in, it was more a case that Police consider that if you don`t do what they say, you are asking for it. They feel that you are disrespecting their authority, they are that power hungry and deluded.

The ambulance crew were responsible for the patients safety while they were in attendance, they are at fault for allowing the officer to attack their patient. It would have been worse if he had a pacemaker fitted.

I just hope they recieve a complaint from this man and a Lawyer is brave enough to take the case.

Look at it this way. This guy was at the gym and had a seizure. He was probably ripped and on creatine or steroids. Normal restraining methods wouldn't be efficient enough to properly subdue this man.

OK, I've been to 3 different gyms over the past 5 years and most people are either slim and fit with well defined muscles, or fat and trying to get fit. Very few people go to the gym to get "ripped".

Also, creatine does not create muscle mass or make you stronger. I take creatine and all it does is allow your muscles to work more efficiently, therefore allowing you to run that bit faster/further or pump a few more weights. It's a completely natural substance that the body produces and has no side effects.

Please do homework.

reply to post by ReVoLuTiOn76



HAD IT COMING???

DO you know what POSTICTAL IS? When you suffer from seizures you are, combative, with an altered metal status.

In other words you have NO IDEA WHAT YOUR DOING!

en.wikipedia.org...

Please, learn about disorders before saying the police have a right to TAZER someone who has no control over the situation.

reply to post by Miraj

you don't attemp to restrain a seizing patient!

Obviuosly your not paramedic, cause that is EXACTLY WHAT YOU DO! For their safety and yours!

I mean if a seizure patient turns blue and stops breathing, What your the paramedic, your just going to let them be Hypoxic and die? Continue to seize?


You'd do what is best for them, use restraints, protect them from harm, treat the seizures so they don't have brain damage, and OVIOUSLY DON'T ALLOW POLICE TO TAZER THEM!


Does anyone know what paramedics do?

my god....

I've seen seizures that were so violent that the patient broke their OWN arm. One guy gnashed his teeth so hard that one of them broke off and he was choking on it. When he started choking, we started timing.

We knew he had 4-6 minutes before brain death and we still didn't restrain him during the seizure. His extremely violent seizure lasted about 80 seconds, THEN we extracted the tooth from his throat and pumped him full of CHEMICAL restraints.

It is physically impossible to swallow one's own (still attached) tongue although it can obstruct the airway. Hence the need to reposition (if you can). If they're flailing about then they're probably not restricting their air flow with their tongue.

Grand mal seizure patients are NEVER restrained. You can move things out of their way to keep them from violently flailing against something that will damage them and, depending on the type of seizure, you can get a pillow for their head or reposition their head to keep them from choking.

I learned pressure points. I took care of a vaccine-damaged child that had over 100 grand mal seizures a week and would frequently go into status epilepticus (life-threatening). During the seizures he would hurl himself into the wall with incredible force.

In order to be able to even get a syringe full of Phenobarbital into him, some form of restraint was required. Since we're trained to never restrain a seizing patient I learned pressure points. I always kept a syringe full of meds drawn up and would use the pressure points to keep him from injuring himself until I could get the drugs into him.

If he had petit mal instead of grand mal, I could have restrained him or assisted him to the ground. Petit mal seizures are sometimes so mild that people look like they're just staring off into space for a minute. Sometimes they'll blink rapidly. They're almost always dazed and confused afterward.

I'd be surprised to learn that the man in the article has not suffered permanent brain damage from his ordeal. This was completely unacceptable behavior on the part of the cops and, I suspect, it's largely due to the complaints of the paramedics who should have known better.

WOW...

From reading this entire thread, I found that most people have no clue what paramedics are suppose to do.

Like you never restrain a sezuire patient.

ok...but how am I suppose to assist the patient, then if I wait till the sezuire is over...

What if the sezuire lasts 2 minutes and the patient stops breathing?

I am just suppose to watch and let him/her finish what they are doing?

Come on... Does anyone know what Valium or Ativan is for?


I'll tell you, while they are seizing, I'd be doing the following:

Airways assement, placing oxygen on patient.

Breathing, make sure they are and if not, prepare to assist....

Circulation: monitor and IV, and if they are seiziing still, VALIUM!

its that simple, those medics are in hot water....

Seriuosly hot boiling water!

www.guardian.co.uk...

The man reportedly bit ambulance staff and punched emergency service paramedics after he fell ill at the Powerleague gym in Whalley Range, south Manchester.

The IPCC's north west commissioner, Naseem Malik, said: "This man suffered an epileptic seizure and it is clear paramedics were struggling to treat him due to the violence of that seizure.

He added that officers were called to the incident because the 40-year-old man in question was suffering a seizure and posing an immediate threat to the safety of himself and others.

Some of you people on here amaze me. You assume everyone involved knew all the facts at the time of the incident.

Were the paramedics on scene during the actual seizure? It likely took >5 minutes to arrive. So did they know it really was a seizure?
Did the man actually have a medic alert bracelet? Unknown
Did the paramedics actually know it was epilepsy and not drugs? Unknown
Did the paramedics have a chance to read the medic alert bracelet with all the punches and biting? Not likely

As to the police they were called to protect every one.

Did they know it was epilepsy? Unknown But does that matter? Someone was throwing punches and trying to bite people. The police had to take control of the situation quickly. Several innocent bystanders were at risk by an out of control individual.

Should the police have wrestled with the person to gain control? Absolutely not for several reasons. Risk to innocent bystanders to start with. More importantly unnecessary risk to police and medical personnel. This guy was biting! Did he have hepatitis? Did he have aids? They could have been killed by blood born pathogens.
Who on this board wants to be bitten by some unknown person? Why do you expect police and medical to absorb physical violence? They are humans too. They don’t deserve to go home with bruises and contusions or diseases.

To all those Monday morning quarterbacks out there, I support your joining your local police departments. Then you hold the hand of all the violent people you want. For me I’ll support the police using the taser at every violent opportunity. It terminates the violence.

more electricity for the less fortuned people ,

back in the day you could practicly electrocute anyone who was bit odd


cudos to the officer for being old school, i to beat my children.

Originally posted by ReVoLuTiOn76
reply to post by fleetlord

 

Now, I'm no cop lover, but this guy had it coming. He was biting and punching people, and wouldn't cooperate with the police.

Sarcasm right?

Or do you know what epilepsy is?

In such a case wouldn't a tranquilizer be more humane? I don't know if people would agree with it or not, but something to calm the guy down wouldn't hurt. It all comes down to which do you want...1 person hospitalized or 2 or 3. I'm sure the officer will be suspended.

Originally posted by badw0lf

Originally posted by ReVoLuTiOn76
reply to post by fleetlord

 

Now, I'm no cop lover, but this guy had it coming. He was biting and punching people, and wouldn't cooperate with the police.

Sarcasm right?

Or do you know what epilepsy is?

I went to high school with a girl who had epilepsy, she never bit or threw punches and I even caught her once when she started having one. Maybe it's a case by case basis, but I've never seen an epileptic person punch someone...struggle from panic, absolutely, but not punching.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by yellowcard]

Originally posted by yellowcard
I went to high school with a girl who had epilepsy, she never bit or threw punches and I even caught her once when she started having one. Maybe it's a case by case basis, but I've never seen an epileptic person punch someone...struggle from panic, absolutely, but not punching.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by yellowcard]

Uhhuh. So lets tazer anyone who acts different to how you believe they should. He obviously needed it. Should have just belted him while they were at it. That would have made him better.



I knew a guy who had a form of epilepsy that caused him to stop still and flail his arms around his head. If it got really bad, he'd drop to the floor kicking and rolling around, uncontrollably.

His medication helped most of the time, and when he was flailing his arms around we were told NOT to interfere with him because he was out of control.

Guess he needs to be tazed to sort him out...

Tell me, what should the cop have done? As a police officer, he MUST act to protect attacked ones, and use force if necessary. This wouldn't even be news on ATS if it wasn't for tazer. Had the cop used his baton and smacked living stuff out of this poor guy thus inflicting injuries, it wouldn't have been posted here.

As for paramedics, in my country they are not authorized to use force in the line of duty, except in self defense. Trying to restrain patient which is resisting is not self defense.

And in case lives are threatened by someone, even use of lethal force may be granted, according to law and considering the situation.

It is very common for a person coming out of a seizure to be disoriented and aggressive due to the disorientation. My own barber suffers from them from time to time and the paramedics always wait until he finally calms down as he's mean and nasty when he first comes to.

Tazering someone who has just had one shows the intelligence and aggression level that the cops in that situation had.

Sadly, this seems to cover almost all of them these days.

The police car isolated the cops from the public which was a bad thing which helped foster the "Us and Them" mentality. Fraternal organizations within their ranks only exasperated that problem as well.

Tazers are making them less and less willing to negotiate or diffuse situations. Now they can lazily just push a button and cause pain compliance.

Their training is a escalatory method that breeds more and more unnecessary violence from them which is counterproductive to civil service.

We see this again and again here now.

reply to post by derek_m24


A good way to differentiate a fake seizure from a real one is to take a prolactin level. It is usually elevated in a real seizure. Of course this can only be done in a hospital setting.

Originally posted by badw0lf

Originally posted by yellowcard
I went to high school with a girl who had epilepsy, she never bit or threw punches and I even caught her once when she started having one. Maybe it's a case by case basis, but I've never seen an epileptic person punch someone...struggle from panic, absolutely, but not punching.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by yellowcard]

Uhhuh. So lets tazer anyone who acts different to how you believe they should. He obviously needed it. Should have just belted him while they were at it. That would have made him better.

I knew a guy who had a form of epilepsy that caused him to stop still and flail his arms around his head. If it got really bad, he'd drop to the floor kicking and rolling around, uncontrollably.

His medication helped most of the time, and when he was flailing his arms around we were told NOT to interfere with him because he was out of control.

Guess he needs to be tazed to sort him out...

Uhm, did you even read my post? Where the hell did I say the guy needed to be tasered?

While I am in no way condoning what was done, I somehow feel that the reason the victim was tased was because the policeman may have thought that if the person was convulsing, that perhaps a mild taser shock with his service taser would snap him out of it or bring him back to normal.

Anyone who has ever been with a convulsing epileptic person knows exactly what I speak of when I say that the "pucker factor" goes way up when someone is in public is lying on the ground foaming at the mouth and convulsing on the floor like some chemical poisoned animal. With epileptics, the twitching and convulsing don't stop until the victim regains some control over their epileptic fit. Even I to this day still think that a mild shock will work to bring them back. This is why I will give the policeman the benefit of the doubt and not immediately consider him some black jack booted thug with the morals of a grasshopper.

Then again the policeman could have thought he was faking and deciding to find out if he was or not. Either way, with some policemen as we all know, not all of them are intellectuals. As such, some cop probably freaked out and thought he would use his taser like they do those emergency CPR defib machines that shock you back to normal.

Anyway, in my gut feeling I get the feeling that the police man just freaked and wanted to shock the person back to normal like they do with heart attack victims. In retrospect, it is now determined that it was perhaps not the best thing to do, but I for one would love to know the policeman's version or explanation of why he did what he did because something tells me he probably thought that a mild shock would do. Since he didn't use all 150-K volts on him, I would have to say he went pretty mild on him.

Perhaps I am being too considerate, but then again perhaps not.

Thanks for the posting.

reply to post by MaxBlack


As I said in my previous post, epileptics, during a seizure suffer electrical imbalances in the brain, do you really think an extra 50,000V added to the system is really going to solve this? No, it's going to make it much worse.

Jesus, we may as well just bring back electroshock treatment!

When British cops were first given tasers, I thought it would be a good thing. I saw them using them on violent criminals and a better alternative to the finality of a gun in a country where gun crime is on the rise. I did not forsee them using them on the general populace for the hell of it.

Naive I was, learned I have become.