Free Bernie Madoff

Fascist Soup reports:

Mises’s Jeffery Tucker argues Bernie Madoff should be freed from prison.

It always makes me mad when I miss the obvious. Jeffery’s keen sense of morals and rational dispassionate logic never ceases to amaze me.

Think about this.

Madoff’s “victims” were willing dupes in an investment scheme they chose to participate in without thoroughly investigating. In a free market, if I can sell an ice cube to an Eskimo, should I be punished for this? Are snake oil salesmen criminals or simply shrewd businessmen? If people want to buy snake oil, is it not their right? Isn’t the ultimate responsibility on the purchaser of the snake oil to investigate the claims of the salesman for themselves? Doesn’t the market automatically punish fraud for us as soon as it is uncovered?

To my reasoning, in a voluntary market, the market can deliver the punishment more rapidly and effectively than government.

Madoff is not a violent criminal. Madoff never took money from someone that didn’t voluntarily give it to him. Madoff did not put a gun to anyones head and force them to invest with him (unlike our criminal government).

The investors that participated in Madoff’s “too good to be true” scheme should have known what they were getting into. If something is too good to be true, it probably is. – like “free” medical care or “free” education.

Tucker rightly points out that now, Madoff IS taking money from me at gunpoint.

By incarcerating this non-violent fraudster, the government is putting a gun to my head to pay for his imprisonment. The government is looting me to pay for this looter. Yet this looter never directly caused harm to me or to anyone one else that didn’t deserve it. The market rightly punished his investors for their stupidity, and it rightly punished Madoff by bankrupting him.

Punishment has already been delivered.

Madoff is now a pauper, totally discredited, and will be viewed with disdain by the markets forever more. Is it really necessary to incarcerate him at my expense?

Madoff’s actions involve a civil matter that should have been entirely dealt with in a civil court, not a criminal court. His crime was being good at relieving stupid people of their money, which isn’t a crime at all in my book.

Tucker comments that the public at large generally felt a sense of righteous indignation toward Madoff. ”How dare this man relieve stupid people of their money!” Of course, being mad about his actions is justified; however, anger clouds judgement. Now the public really is being duped by Madoff – at gun point.

Our criminal government, which engages in the largest Ponzi scheme in world history you call Socialist Security, is now looting ME at the point of a gun to pay for Madoff’s medical care, housing, food, clothing, electricity, water, etc.. etc.. etc.. I feel this is something that should be reserved only for those who have caused harm to unwilling victims. To people who have violated the civil rights of others. Willingly giving your money to a snake oil salesman does not constitute a violation of ones civil rights.

I agree with Tucker.

Free Bernie Madoff.


------

I am the author of this article, republished in full here with my permission. This article may be replicated and distributed freely.

Who is the bigger thief? The regulatory system that made Bernie possible or Bernie?

Let us take a look at the next scam coming from our thiefs in law (gov). Carbon Credits-a non existent tradeable item, that I am sure, will have derivatives coming from that schema in no time.

Now, we have already seen in other countries evidence of VAST corruption in their markets.

Where was the carbon credits scam cooked up you may ask, well Enron of course.

I think Inhofe(I think that is how it is spelled) has called for an investigation into the scheme.

Oh well, I say let em out. I am sure in the olden days of the US, they never bothered to lock these type guys up. It usually ended at the end of a rope.

reply to post by endisnighe


The real criminals are the central bankers, the treasury department, the socialist security trust board, the congress, and others in government that loot me daily at the point of a gun to prop up fraudulent Ponzi schemes I am forced to participate in.

The markets punished Madoff, however government acts outside the markets. When government does what Madoff did, it becomes a criminal, not civil matter.

Government does not obey its own laws.

Government is above the law.

Government is criminal.


[edit on 24-2-2010 by mnemeth1]

For reference, here are the list of charges:

NEW YORK (WABC) -- Here are a list of the charges brought by federal prosecutors against Bernard Madoff:

Count One: Securities Fraud
Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine of the greatest of $5 million or twice the gross gain or loss from the offense, and restitution.

Count Two: Investment Adviser Fraud
Maximum penalty: 5 years in prison, fine of the greatest of $10,000 or twice the gross gain or loss from the offense, and restitution.

Count Three: Mail Fraud
Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine of the greatest of $250,000 or twice the gross gain or loss from the offense, and restitution.

Count Four: Wire Fraud
Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine of the greatest of $250,000 or twice the gross gain or loss from the offense, and restitution.

Count Five: International Money Laundering To Promote Specified Unlawful Activity
Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine of the greatest of $500,000 or twice the value of the monetary instruments or funds involved, or twice the gross gain or loss from the offense, and restitution.

Count Six: International Money Laundering To Conceal And Disguise The Proceeds Of Specified Unlawful Activity
Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine of the greatest of $500,000 or twice the value of the monetary instruments or funds involved or twice the gross gain or loss from the offense, and restitution.

Count Seven: Money Laundering
Maximum penalty: 10 years in prison, fine of the greatest of $250,000 or twice the gross grain or loss from the offense, and restitution.

Count Eight: False Statements
Maximum penalty: 5 years in prison, fine of the greatest of $250,000 or twice the gross gain or loss from the offense, and restitution.

Count Nine: Perjury
Maximum penalty: 5 years in prison, fine of the greatest of $250,000 or twice the gross gain or loss from the offense, and restitution.

Count 10: Making A False Filing With The Securities and Exchange Commission
Maximum Penalty: 20 years in prison, fine of the greatest of $5 million or twice the gross gain or loss from the offense, and restitution.

Count 11: Theft From An Employee Benefit Plan Maximum Penalty: 5 years in prison, fine of the greatest of $250,000 or twice the gross gain or loss from the offense, and restitution.

I am a believer in buyer beware, but this is not the case. If anything, it can be likened to false advertising...its theft.

Madoff wasn't found guilty, he plead guilty..He also knew he would be imprisoned for what he did.

A quick example:
If there was no law against false advertising, then cigarette manufacturers could come on air and say the surgeon general has classified smoking as a cure for parkinsons disease and extended the life of mice by 25%.

Finally, there is the perjury charge....that in itself is bad news.

reply to post by mnemeth1


Another great thread. You are like a beacon of truth.

Bernie Madoff should definitely be freed. Instead of paying to hold him in a jail cell they could use him to help clean up this mess. If a guy is brilliant enough to rip off 50billion dollars right under everyones noses then he is smart enough to figure out the right way to fix the system. This would be kind of like hiring an ex hacker to test your network security. Happens all the time. Then this makes Bernie a tax paying citizen again.

His victims thought they were investing with one of the best people in the business. They were seeing returns on their investments that they thought were there. When the economy collapsed, he could no longer rob Peter to pay Paul (as it were) and so he knew he would get caught.

So he gave up. He plead guilty to try and save his family, and he is in prison for the crimes he committed.

reply to post by SaturnFX


I disagree.

False advertising is a ridiculous and unnecessary law.

If I package up a box of dog shat and sell it for 100.00 a pop claiming it can cure diabetes, should I be sent to jail for this?

The people consuming the product should be wholly responsible for investigating the claims.

In fact, criminal false advertising laws violate free speech rights. People have a right to lie about anything they want.

I am a huge believer in true free market capitalism. Madoff is not in jail cuz he was a sleazy salesman. he was that too, but he is in jail because he took illegal actions as SaturnFX pointed out. Whether he should be freed has nothing to do with economics, it has everything to do with the law.

Originally posted by Ozzy Mandias
I am a huge believer in true free market capitalism. Madoff is not in jail cuz he was a sleazy salesman. he was that too, but he is in jail because he took illegal actions as SaturnFX pointed out. Whether he should be freed has nothing to do with economics, it has everything to do with the law.

No kidding he broke the law.

However the law is unjust and unnecessary.

That is my argument.

In fact, as I point out, the government doesn't even obey its own laws in this regard.




[edit on 24-2-2010 by mnemeth1]

Originally posted by mnemeth1

Originally posted by Ozzy Mandias
I am a huge believer in true free market capitalism. Madoff is not in jail cuz he was a sleazy salesman. he was that too, but he is in jail because he took illegal actions as SaturnFX pointed out. Whether he should be freed has nothing to do with economics, it has everything to do with the law.

No kidding he broke the law.

However the law is unjust and unnecessary.

That is my argument.

In fact, as I point out, the government doesn't even obey its own laws in this regard.




[edit on 24-2-2010 by mnemeth1]

So , If I as a Contractor build you a house , and it falls on your head.

It's your fault for not checking the Structure?

Bernie is where he should be, along with 90% of Wall Street.

Originally posted by Sean48
So , If I as a Contractor build you a house , and it falls on your head.

It's your fault for not checking the Structure?

Bernie is where he should be, along with 90% of Wall Street.

1. If a contractor built a house that caved in on my head my family would bring a civil suit against him - not a criminal suit.

2. If a contractor built a crappy house, the market would find this out and he would loose his business.

Criminal action is not necessary.

Looking at the list of charges he plead to, there is no way he will be walking the streets anytime soon. There may have been some who were aware they were investing into a scam, but there were also many who weren't. You can point to everyone else and say they are criminal, but what is the point of that?

I am really surprised that many more people didn't go down but they didn't get caught. Madoff unfortunately was at the top of the list which I would attribute to greed. Why settle for millions when you can get billions?? Its just greed.

There is probably alot more to the Madoff story than meets the eye..

reply to post by mnemeth1


Have to agree with you again.

How is it just to put a man to jail for making people happy for the last 20 years by making them think they were investing geniuses, but then not put in jail the big bankers who robbed the entire country of a couple of trillion dollars. Oh yeah, I guess it was because they robbed us according to what the laws in this country allow for thievery.

Lesson learned, its ok to rob as long as you got the law and the government on your side.

reply to post by mnemeth1


Stay away from that website.

It makes you look silly.

Laws are here for a reason.

You can't pick and choose which ones you want upheld.

Originally posted by Sean48
reply to post by mnemeth1

 

Stay away from that website.

It makes you look silly.

Laws are here for a reason.

You can't pick and choose which ones you want upheld.

Yeah, actually I can.

Its called jury nullification.

Its called elected sheriffs that don't enforce laws that violate the constitution.

Its called judges that can throw out laws that violate the constitution.

The supreme court legalized slavery.

The supreme court legalized forced sterilization.

The supreme court legalized segregation.

Just because a law is passed and upheld by the courts does not make it right.

reply to post by mnemeth1

If I package up a box of dog shat and sell it for 100.00 a pop claiming it can cure diabetes, should I be sent to jail for this?

Yes in fact you should. False advertising is in fact criminal. Especially if you cause harm by doing so. Your dog poo diabetes cure could really hurt people. So yes you should go to jail for that.

I know you want anarchy, apparently so that you can sell people products that make you a fast buck but are worthless, but that's not the way the world should work. In fact it's not the way the world does work. If you sell something that does someone harm, you should be liable for that criminally. Especially if you knowingly did so.

What a load of crap.

Bernie is a criminal thug who conned innocent people of their wealth. He should be sent to a forced labour camp to toil until death.

reply to post by whatukno


Well don't you think if a person is so damn stupid as to buy dog crap and think it will cure their diabetes and actually dies from it that it wouldn't just be a great example of natural selection at that point.

[edit on 24-2-2010 by Mr Sunchine]

reply to post by mnemeth1


Under your theory, what grounds would you have for a civil suit? It would be your failure to properly supervise the construction that was to blame, not the contractor's choice of subsituting cheap materials for the ones you paid for. The contractor can't be held liable and more than you want Madoff held liable. If the contractor lied and subsituted inexperienced, unskilled labor and cheap materials for the skilled labor and high quality stuff he sold you, well, that's just your own fault for not paying enough attention.

Madoff is where he needs to be, although I'd free him under the condition that he be locked in an auditorium with his victims for an hour and they be allowed to do what they wish to him with no consequences.

[edit on 24-2-2010 by apacheman]

reply to post by whatukno


1. The argument is that the law is unjust and unnecessary - thus it should not be enforced.

2. The law is unjust and unnecessary because the civil courts and the market will enact punishment more effectively than the criminal court.

Its also unjust for the government to put a gun to my head and force me to pay for Madoff's housing, food, medical care, water, electricity, clothing, etc.. etc.. etc.. when Madoff didn't force anyone to do anything. All of Madoff's "victims" were willing participants.