Does Size Really Matter.?....Let's Compare

I remember someone posting something similar to this a while back (I still even have the link to the full image), but it never ceases to amaze me.

Things like this always remind me of Carl Sagan's "Pale Blue Dot" . I just had to post my favorite part, so I hope I don't offend the OP.

"The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves."

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by rainfall

 

We matter not. We are less than bacteria....less than a virus....not even that significant.

A Different Perspective...

Why in the world do you equate "mattering" with physical size? That is not logical at all. We in fact DO matter a great deal, because those big balls of gas and raw material matter very little in terms of complexity and amazing wonder. That is precisely what makes the universe awesome... the fact that big simple massive things get boiled down to smaller and smaller things that are far more complex and wondrous. Those stars, regardless of their size, can't do ANYTHING except burn.

So, from a perspective of ACTION and ABILITY, they are tiny... no more important than a lit match. Physical size is but one single attribute, and there isn't really anything AMAZING about physical size. It doesn't take any great act of intelligence, planning, logic, emotion, or creativity to amass a bunch of material into big balls.

You are being fooled by the unusual sight of something that big, but when you really stop to think about it, BIG really DOESN'T matter, not nearly as much as COMPLEXITY leading to FLEXIBILITY of ABILITY! That is FAR more amazing in the universe, much rarer, and much more astounding.

Just think about it for a second, and realize that the only reason you are not COMPLETELY blown away by the human being is because you see them all the time and are quite used to them, taking their amazing abilities and construction totally for granted. If you were a consciousness encased in a massive star or nebula, and you ran across these human beings tucked away on this little planet, I think you would be FAR more impressed by us than we are by the big gas balls. You would marvel at how simplistic you were, and how amazing it was that all that astounding complexity could be packed into something so very small!


[edit on 22-2-2010 by downisreallyup]

reply to post by riddle6


Riddle6 -good call.

Mr Sagan was a very wise man and the pale blue dot photograph is totaly awesome (and makes you feel very small and very silly)


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8eb1007de7ce.jpg[/atsimg]


Great thread OP!

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by riddle6


I could not disagree more with Mr. Sagan. Please read my post above this one to see how a different perspective may be in order...

[edit on 22-2-2010 by downisreallyup]

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[edit on Mon Feb 22 2010 by Jbird]

reply to post by downisreallyup


Um, I actually agree with you. I really think it is all about perspective, and that humans really are something special. However, that doesn't mean that I think that we are the best thing the Universe has to offer. I put Sagan's quote up because most people I know think that humans are the end-all be-all of greatness and that the rest of the Universe isn't worth their time.

reply to post by karl 12


Yes, and that is exactly why the earth IS so important amongst the vast simplistic cacophony of space. Order is superior to chaos, and like a large diamond, the complex order contained in the human being (and other higher life forms) is mind-blowing and amazing. It's as if all the vastness of space, with all its blends of raw material, exists for the purpose of hatching these extremely rare and wondrous specks of enlightened amazement. Profound order is so very rare in this universe that it only exists on tiny blue dots, and that is exactly why we are so vastly superior in importance... what makes art important? Is it not the rarity and profoundness of the work? Importance is not placed on the mundane or the ubiquity... importance is placed on the unusual and the exceptional.

Compared to the vast quantity and size of simplistic universal bodies, there is a very small collection of wondrous and fantastic function, order, and ability, where the very acts of intelligent creation can occur with ease, where cause and effect can be manipulated by sentient consciousness. The heavenly bodies of dust and gas are but mere hoards of commonality, while we, the rare and capable higher life forms are the crowning pinnacle of nobility. The celestial bodies are the massive amounts of dirt, while we are the extremely rare and valuable gemstones.


[edit on 22-2-2010 by downisreallyup]

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[edit on Mon Feb 22 2010 by Jbird]

Originally posted by riddle6
reply to post by downisreallyup

 

Um, I actually agree with you. I really think it is all about perspective, and that humans really are something special. However, that doesn't mean that I think that we are the best thing the Universe has to offer. I put Sagan's quote up because most people I know think that humans are the end-all be-all of greatness and that the rest of the Universe isn't worth their time.

The universe is well worth our time as a place to study and to be impressed with. But when anyone says that "we are worthless, worse than viruses" I take real exception to that. It is not correct and only leads to an unhealthy self-loathing. Just the fact that we CAN study the universe, and look at stars so far away, and make estimates of their size, and discuss it all on a network that spans the globe, is proof enough of what I am saying. Are those stars doing anything like that with us? We know where our little blue dot is located in that ray of sunshine... do any of those vast stars know where they are located?

I'm all for studying the stars and universe in order to gain more understanding, but when someone takes it too far, getting "starry-eyed" by some single attribute like physical dimension, I feel compelled to bring them back to a more true perspective on what it means to have VALUE.

The fact is, you could blow up a billion stars and it would not be as large of a loss to the universe as it would be if you destroyed the earth. Which one would be harder to replace?


[edit on 22-2-2010 by downisreallyup]

Would be nice to be exploring all of that right now. The mere knowledge of it riles up my own explorer and adventurer's blood, driving my desire to get out there.

Too bad we can't get past the need for power and profit and push ourselves towards the future.

Should be within our grasp even now, so long as everyone stops trying to be first in their advancements.

[edit on 22-2-2010 by Mr. jack]

reply to post by rainfall


Thanks for this great post! S&F

I have been looking for just such a break down for my kids.

Question:
If a star 10 times the size of our sun had a planet 10 times the size of Earth, would it produce beings 10 times as large as a human?

Originally posted by arizonascott
reply to post by rainfall

 

Thanks for this great post! S&F

Question:
If a star 10 times the size of our sun had a planet 10 times the size of Earth, would it produce beings 10 times as large as a human?

Hi arizonascott...

I was just discussing this with a friend........You would think that if a planet was 10 times larger than earth and had life on it, that life would be in proportion to that planet....

So actually, I guess there could be humans that are 50, 75, 200, 500, etc..
feet tall.....

reply to post by downisreallyup

Order is superior to chaos, and like a large diamond, the complex order contained in the human being (and other higher life forms) is mind-blowing and amazing.

I am sensing an attempt to 'elevate' we Humans, based on the tired old argument that is usually put forward by religion.

Did I misunderstand your intent?

My gosh!! We are little better than any other species on this planet, except that we have improved frontal lobes, and skills at verbal communication --- which has led to our current dominance pn the planet, over other species.

Don't get ME wrong....our ability to THINK, and to love, and to create, and to envision beauty....those are ALL admirable qualities.

BUT....look at what ELSE we are capable of!!!!

Purile, evil and indiscriminatory cruelty, not only to each other, but to other creatures as well.

AND FOR WHAT???

We are a pox on this planet, not because of our existence, but because of our actions. This can be reversed, with attention paid.

Nature will deal with us, which is a likely possibility.

Our influence, as we continue to breed and spread on this planet, can certainly (in very short time) come to strip our home (Earth) of its resources. Technology can only fill any gaps we cause, by our own actions, up to a certain point.

IF YOU WISH to see our species continue, then we must establish colonies off-planet (and, YES! Unfortunately, the pattern will continue, for many generations to come. However, as long as we reside solely here, we are very, very vulnerable to extinction).

Still, we have survived near-extinction events before, based on the best DNA science available to us....one study I read about showed that our (Homo Sapien Sapien) population was likely once as low as 50,000 individuals (or less).

Just think about all of the genetic diversity that was lost, as the size of the breeding sample was reduced to that small size.....

Something to ponder, when we look at the devastation in our genome, but, that's an entire other thread, deserving its own....

reply to post by rainfall


I tend to disagree, as it's not a logical progression.

Sure, the dinosaurs (some species) grew to be quite large, but there were other environmental factors driving that....

So, upon reflection....we just do not yet know enough to draw a firm conclusion.

(You have to consider the FORCE of gravity, based on the density of the hypothetical planets, and what lifeforms can evolve, survive, and prosper under the various "G" forces that would result, based on planetary size and density....)

You know, somebody should really put together a list of threads like these that use the exact same comparison images. I think I've seen it at least 10 times on ATS alone.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by rainfall

 

I tend to disagree, as it's not a logical progression.

Sure, the dinosaurs (some species) grew to be quite large, but there were other environmental factors driving that....

So, upon reflection....we just do not yet know enough to draw a firm conclusion.

(You have to consider the FORCE of gravity, based on the density of the hypothetical planets, and what lifeforms can evolve, survive, and prosper under the various "G" forces that would result, based on planetary size and density....)

So why would you disagree....??..?...

Also there could be life on much smaller planets than earth.....and if there are humans there, they could be one foot tall......or one inch tall...or even much, much smaller...

reply to post by rainfall

....and if there are humans there....

And there is why you go terribly wrong, thinking that 'humans' are the end-all and be-all of creation. (Ooops.....I say "creation" NOT in the religious sense....I wish to clarify this. As much as a supernova "creates" heavier elements, through nuclear fusion reactions, as the more basic elements, hydrogen, helium, etc, fuse together....so, please do not misusnterstand my use of the term 'creation'....I imply NO DIVINE FORCE at work!!!)

Let's stop, drop, and roll for a few moments, and recall just HOW LONG THIS planet has had lifeforms, and what meager, scant, minor portion of that vast time frame have existed 'humans' (as we have named ourselves).


While you're wrapping your head around that concept....I will give you more to ponder.

AND, will work with you here....

To be "Human", as we envision it in context, implies to imagine a being that embodies ALL that we, as human beings, when we're at our best, think best represents our best nature, as a being, whether simply moral, or if your're so inclined, spiritual as well.

SO....based on that definition of "human", then when and IF we encounter other sentient species, HOW do we apply those same standards??? To them? AND, how will THEIR 'standards' of morality, within their paradigm, be applied, by them, TOWARD US???

Just look about you, here on Earth, watching the various biota, to see the huge gaps in understanding left to fill, on that philosophical question.


[edit on 22 February 2010 by weedwhacker]

This is my favorite thing to ponder. We really could just be living on someone's clover. (Horton Hears a Who)

If that star had planets that were in similar proportion to our solar system's...we would literally be a speck of dust on their worlds.

Cool thoughts.

reply to post by Demoncreeper


YES!!!!

But, now you're talking about dimensions, and multiple dimensions, and stuff like that....

ALL good to think upon......

The differences are astonishing, I mean, i've seen them before but they still have the same affect when viewed again! mind blowing how big those stars are!

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by downisreallyup

 

Order is superior to chaos, and like a large diamond, the complex order contained in the human being (and other higher life forms) is mind-blowing and amazing.

I am sensing an attempt to 'elevate' we Humans, based on the tired old argument that is usually put forward by religion.

Did I misunderstand your intent?

My gosh!! We are little better than any other species on this planet, except that we have improved frontal lobes, and skills at verbal communication --- which has led to our current dominance pn the planet, over other species.

Don't get ME wrong....our ability to THINK, and to love, and to create, and to envision beauty....those are ALL admirable qualities.

Yes, you did misunderstand me... my comments have nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with plain common sense. Your comments are spoken as one who is WITHIN the thing you are talking about, and mine are an attempt to look at life in general, and higher life-forms in particular, from an objective OUTSIDE perspective.

We are NOT insignificant in the slightest because life in the higher form is FAR superior to animals. I am a software engineer, and I can tell you that normal software is far inferior to Artifical Intelligent software. One is a simple program that follows preset instructions, while AI is capable of self-direction, and creativity.

You say we just happen to have more advanced frontal lobes, and I think that is a ridiculous statement. You talk as if you know what you are talking about, and yes you keep making demeaning comments about mankind, and you give animals a pass. You denigrate mankind because of the selfish behavior, and I agree that those behaviors are animal-like, fueled from fear and a perceived threat to survival or dominance. But, the entire universe is explosive, under tension, easily given to conflict.

Atoms collide, tectonic plates shift, volcanoes explode, animals hunt and are hunted, and nations struggle with each other for the best land and control of resources. That is the baseline for nature... all nature throughout the universe. The fact is, WE the humans on this planet, and perhaps other similar lifeforms on other planets (or under our planet), are the CROWNING ACHIEVEMENT within this universe, precisely because WE ALONE have the ability to override that animal nature, that propensity to conflict and destroy.

Our ability to create, to generate musical compositions (not just twitter the same old song like birds do), to build machines, to study the world, to postulate theories and then to test them, to understand nature and then to harness its power, to truly love, even the unlovable, to establish civil societies, to live by honor, character, and highly refined principles... these are just some of the VAST differences between us and all other lifeforms on earth. Yes, there are likely other higher life forms on other "small blue dots" who can do the same, and that is not the point of my argument.

The point is, WE, the higher, intelligent, sentient, self-directed lifeforms are the very pinnacle of all physical things that exist, precisely for the reasons I enumerated above. Not because of actions, but because of our potential and our ability to override the natural processes and programming... nothing else in the universe can do that, and that is the most demanding thing there is.

reply to post by Quantum_Squirrel


The problem with size is that one too often forgets that a seed is what becomes a tree, that the ova and sperm which are the seeds become the human being, and that all began as a very small unit until finally fully matured...what I am intrigued by is the mind that can comprehend the entire universe at once rather than at moments such as singling in on one planet, or one galaxy at a time...anyone thinking of the universe in one big gulp! That kind of mind is what would have to be the mind of universal consciousness or what we humans might call God!