Deny ignorance and tell the truth, is that even possible? Desirable?

Considering that most here probably has a pretty high IQ and a curious mind you will be better equipped to deal. Not saying that you won't have a melt down, you probably will.

Now if Joe Q. Public's, and that is about 99.8% of the 7.5 billion souls on this planet, world of philosophy, religion, and way of life suddenly comes crashing down, we have a BIG problem. Civilization will grind to a halt. Maybe not permanently, but long enough of a gestation period to do the damage. Two weeks is about long enough to get people into a survival mode. Then we live in chaos. And that's during our natural disasters. I am sure that an unnatural (well it depends how you would classify unnatural) disaster of mental breakdown, it will not even take that long. Maybe the second it happens?

My entire life has consisted of questioning all this "reality". I was always looking for something. I wanted this something so bad, and when I got my confirmation, I nearly, well not nearly, I had a meltdown, and I feel I have been prepped for my situation. Now think of all the people that are not asking for it. You can't walk before you can crawl.

Be careful what you ask for!

Originally posted by CHA0S

Best try to enjoy whatever lie makes us happy

NEVER...ignorance is not bliss for me...and I will never chose to willingly live in a matrix...even though the world seems perfectly happy to live like this...but that's what makes us so easily manipulatable...

Are humans descendants of apes? Is there a loving god that willfully created three major religions to keep the world perpetually at war? Does science know anything or does it only discover and manipulate what already exists? Are we alone in a universe with billions of planets and suns in it? Does Obama have the hots for Nancy Pelosi?

What makes us so easily manipulated when we so easily swallow the absurd is anyone’s guess.

Originally posted by yeahright

Originally posted by Oceanborn
This is a philosofical question and,in my opinion,the problem in ATS is that the majority takes a philosofy and turns it into a theory and then,somehow,the theory turns into reality.

Far be it from me to get into a philosophical discussion with a Greek.

But yes, it all fits into epistemology.

Is it right to call this whole think in the link as "epistemology"?I wasn't familiar with it until now,so yeah,i don't know.I'll just call the whole bloody thing as "epistimology" for now.
I read a lil bit of it and it allready seems to contradict itself by calling knowledge as justified belief.When we say we "know" something we mean that that speciffic thing is a fact.Do we all do that?No,offcourse not.
In the other hand justified belief,even if it is based on other "facts",itself isn't a fact (at least at that very moment).That's why it needs a certain amount of belief from us.

Am i right,am i wrong?I have no idea.I don't even know if i made myself clear.

How do we know we know what we know? And if we don't know what we know, how can we hope to be aware of what we don't know? I don't know. In fact, "I don't know" ought to be my signature line. But I'd have to add, "and you don't either". Then, that would be a declaration that I know you don't know.

It always depends,in my opinion,on the subject itself.In this thread not only we're not definning what we mean by saying "truth" and "reality" but we also compare them somehow.
"Reality is the truth".If we'll say this then it'll go kinda like this: "reality=truth,if truth isn't something absolute or objective then the same goes for reality.So,reality is fluid and we all live in a matrix." and that's how we end up with a theory which came up by a philosophical conversation.

This is why beer was invented. Not that I know.

I have no idea about the beer thing...


Btw,about this part:

Far be it from me to get into a philosophical discussion with a Greek.

I believe,by reading what you typed in that reply of yours that you didn't mean that. It seems that you allready know that philosophy isn't a greek privilege,it's a human one.

Originally posted by yeahright

Originally posted by sleeper
Like good intentions, truth exists all around us, but how many people have been able to capture virtue and not get caught with their hand in the cookie jar?

You're over my head with that one, which isn't any particular accomplishment.

Virtue is another deal altogether, and I'm assuming you mean a standard of moral absolute. Virtue can however, be subjective if we take it to mean a beneficial quality someone may possess.

That old saying that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", has caught many in the "virtue" trap, the cookie jar, where expectations of a prize was a motivating factor in the good intentions department. Plenty of poverty and pain in this world due to misguided political feel good mischief. Simple paradox or perhaps something sinister depends on whose truth we are buying.

Don't ask me, all I can do is the best I can do, without intentionally harming someone else. Personally, I've never shied away from telling the "truth" as I believe it to be, and I don't know that it's harmed me in any material way. But then I've never aspired to sell books, newspapers, movies and television shows, or rise up the political ladder, succeed in industry, grow religious institutions, teach at universities, pilot aircraft, become a scientist, etc,
Lucky me.

We all have a front row view here observing truth seekers and truth obliterators battling for the minds and souls of the many, some of us disagree on who be the obliterators of truth. But we can all agree that beer is a good invention.

Originally posted by timewalker
Considering that most here probably has a pretty high IQ and a curious mind you will be better equipped to deal. Not saying that you won't have a melt down, you probably will.

Now if Joe Q. Public's, and that is about 99.8% of the 7.5 billion souls on this planet, world of philosophy, religion, and way of life suddenly comes crashing down, we have a BIG problem. Civilization will grind to a halt. Maybe not permanently, but long enough of a gestation period to do the damage. Two weeks is about long enough to get people into a survival mode. Then we live in chaos. And that's during our natural disasters. I am sure that an unnatural (well it depends how you would classify unnatural) disaster of mental breakdown, it will not even take that long. Maybe the second it happens?

My entire life has consisted of questioning all this "reality". I was always looking for something. I wanted this something so bad, and when I got my confirmation, I nearly, well not nearly, I had a meltdown, and I feel I have been prepped for my situation. Now think of all the people that are not asking for it. You can't walk before you can crawl.

Be careful what you ask for!

Yeah, but life on this planet of 7 billion souls has always been topsy turvy, that's what puts hair on our chests, well, that and the fact that we come from the ape family.

Originally posted by sleeper

That old saying that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", has caught many in the "virtue" trap, the cookie jar, where expectations of a prize was a motivating factor in the good intentions department.

I see your point now, and agree. In my opinion, true virtue is in doing the right thing (another subjective call, generally), without consideration of personal benefit. The trap exists only when the "what's in it for me" kicks in. A self-set trap, if you will.

We all have a front row view here observing truth seekers and truth obliterators battling for the minds and souls of the many, some of us disagree on who be the obliterators of truth.

Big circle, isn't it? Since agreement about absolute truth (whether it exists, and if so, what it is) escapes us, that isn't changing anytime soon.

The additional layer of complexity arises when you encounter people who have absolutely no intent to obfuscate or prevaricate, but happen to be wrong (as far as we know/believe). And absent a universally agreed to absolute truth, that's the way it's always going to be.

I know this is hard to believe, but there are actually people who would have the effrontery to disagree about the virtue of beer. Go figure.

reply to post by sleeper

Yeah, but life on this planet of 7 billion souls has always been topsy turvy, that's what puts hair on our chests, well, that and the fact that we come from the ape family.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d755a93c30dd.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by yeahright
The additional layer of complexity arises when you encounter people who have absolutely no intent to obfuscate or prevaricate, but happen to be wrong (as far as we know/believe). And absent a universally agreed to absolute truth, that's the way it's always going to be.

I know this is hard to believe, but there are actually people who would have the effrontery to disagree about the virtue of beer. Go figure.

Without a little beer, wine, and some other choice liquid icebreakers there would be no absolute truths to speak of, or none worth arguing about either.

Originally posted by sleeper

Originally posted by spacevisitor

Originally posted by sleeper
The truth would bring all that we value in our lives to an abrupt end. So why do we pretend to want to know the truth?

I am stunned sleeper, welcome back my friend, its o so good to see you here again.

I'm trying to stir up trouble with the paradoxal dragon called truth. Many claim to have it and yet the world is muddled, as if truth had anything to do with it.

Hi sleeper, in my first reply I said that I was “stunned”, I did not used that expression for your quote in there, that was my fault; I used it to express my big [pleasant] surprise to see that you are back again.

Regarding your sayings.

Many people believe without a doubt that the government explanation for by who and how former US President John F Kennedy was killed back then as the truth, but at the same time many people are convinced that that given government explanation is not the truth at all.

Many people believe without a doubt that the government explanation for by whom and how 911 were executed back then as the truth, but at the same time many people are convinced that that given government explanation it is not the truth at all.

Is that what you mean by the paradoxal dragon called truth?

So if I understand what you saying correct, that as for instance in these two cases, your remark that “the truth would bring all that we value in our lives to an abrupt end” could become a reality for those who believed those government explanations and found out later if that ever would happen of course that they were in fact not the truth at all.

Here is in a way my experience regarding finding out the truth and how it did effect on me.

For many years I really wanted to know the truth about the UFO/ET phenomenon, you know, how thrilling, exiting and great it would be that it becomes true that we are indeed being visited by super advanced beings from out there.

Just for the fun, this is the footage that triggered my interest in the Ufo phenomenon when I was 25 years old and good looking then.



I always had the hope [quite naïve as it seems now] that all those beings would have the best intentions towards us and that they would use their extremely advanced technology and spirituality by helping us to get rid of all the warfare and misery there is on this Earth as fast as possible.

Now after some 38 years of figuring that all out, I am convinced that I now know the truth of at least a very small part of that whole unimaginable big and complex phenomenon.

And knowing that now, does that truth then “set me free” so to speak as I expected once, unhesitating I must admit it did not.

Because now I am aware of things so unimaginable complex, that I never could have imagined them before in any way.

So I can say from this experience, that some for me indisputable values I had during my live for so many years, did got a very big bump so to speak and come indeed to an abrupt end after that.

So therefore you’re saying above is in my case absolutely right.

Just my two Euro-cents.



[edit on 24/1/10 by spacevisitor]

Originally posted by spacevisitor

Is that what you mean by the paradoxal dragon called truth?

Who has truth? Which religious institution has it, any of them? None of them? Politicians and world leaders claim to have or know the truth; some of us know better.

Are we evolved apes from accidentally formed slim pits? As many scientists claim and is taught in schools around the world, even in this day and age of space exploration. Or are we star children simply lost in space in search of ourselves and our “true” purpose in life.

911 and who killed Kennedy are juicy conspiracies for Hollywood documentaries, the same Hollywood that cranks out falsehood after falsehood for political mileage and mirage. The truth? Well that would take the fun out of everything.

reply to post by sleeper


Just registered to make this post...

By way of introduction:

I think the search for truth is meritorious, better yet when love is used to round out the edges.

Perhaps semantics at time applies, some truth being relative and some being absolute.

I think you have an interesting story to tell, and if you haven't been approached yet by someone in the business, my question is: do you have any interest?

Best Wishes,

PM

[edit on 13-2-2010 by PMtrader]

Of course, "deny ignorance" is a fanciful notion, a sound-bite, at best. But it's impossible to deny ignorance any more than it is to tell the "Truth"... "Truth" is entirely relative, "facts" are altogether transient agreements on a collection of details. "Ignorance," likewise, is entirely subjective.

For instance, I have knowledge and skills that most of you do not have, nor will you ever have such knowledge and skills without re-living your life in my exact footsteps.

Does that mean you are all ignorant? Yes, it means you are all ignorant of the knowledge and skills acquired in my life.

I therefore deny you all, right?

Well, of course that's ridiculous. Each one of you has your own knowledge base and skill sets, of which most of the rest of us are totally ignorant. So, "ignorance" is, indeed, in the eye of the beholder.

The ATS slogan "Deny Ignorance" is an arrogant demand, at best.

What this really means is "Let's get together as a group and decide what we accept as 'facts,' then we'll assail everyone who doesn't agree with us!"

Because what we call "facts" and what we call "knowledge" and what we call the "Truth" is all a transient load of dung. What we call "facts" today were fantasies a couple of decades ago; and, in another couple of decades, our most cherished "facts" will be disproven as pure nonsense.

This is the cycle of human learning, yes? That's why we have to be flexible enough to let go of our cherished "facts" at the drop of a hat — because they're not really "facts" at all... They're only a collection of agreements that we make with one another, until our agreement falls apart and we glom onto a new collection of "facts."

Epistemologist Charles Fort called himself an "Intermediatist," meaning one who accepts nothing as fact, because all knowledge is in transition from fantasy to fact to discarded and useless information. Fort perceived everything as being in transition to something else — in his world, a can of green beans could eventually become a can of apple pie filling, and he proved it!

In Fort's world, humans might indeed transmute into animals and back to human form — but Fort was not ignorant. He didn't entertain such "notions" because he had a vivid imagination, but it was because he collected tens of thousands of news items from respected publications and science journals that attested to the seeming existence of... well... werewolves and vampires and such like.

Are these "facts" because they appeared in distinguished publications such as Nature and the New England Journal of Medicine?

What makes something a "fact" aside from a group of people agreeing to it? I mean, our most ironclad facts of today will be a laughingstock a century from now. So who is really "ignorant"??

— Doc Velocity

Nothing is true, everything is permitted

Originally posted by PMtrader
reply to post by sleeper

 

Just registered to make this post...

By way of introduction:

I think the search for truth is meritorious, better yet when love is used to round out the edges.

Perhaps semantics at time applies, some truth being relative and some being absolute.

I think you have an interesting story to tell, and if you haven't been approached yet by someone in the business, my question is: do you have any interest?

Best Wishes,
PM

[edit on 13-2-2010 by PMtrader]

There is little demand for truth regardless that everyone clamors for it. The media and the public want drama, intrigue, and someone to blame all world problems on, a fall guy. If you don't provide those basic ingredients no one is interested, and that don't pay the bills so the truth languishes on the top shelf collecting dust.

reply to post by Doc Velocity


Aint that the truth.

The truth is a commodity and every government institution, religious industry and the scientific community has their own brand of prepackaged and certified truths. Demand has never been better for the prepackaged stuff.

reply to post by sleeper


More people are waking up every day.

My question was not generic. The implication was that in my professional opinion your story has potential. Are you interested in exploring that potential?

If so, note that I chose my registration name thoughtfully.

PM

reply to post by sleeper


PS - A published book is a fundamentally different mechanism from a forum discussion in many ways - some of them subtle. e.g., some readers, because of their inability to self-support their delusions through interactive, real-time rage and/or tantrums and/or doublespeak, are more receptive to new ideas in a book format. Pass the idea by responsible parties, and again...

Best wishes,

PM

Originally posted by PMtrader
reply to post by sleeper

 

More people are waking up every day.

True, and they expect the ground under their feet to be firm, reliable, and predictable when they jump out of bed, otherwise they will have a bad hair day.

Institutionalized illusions and their corresponding truths provide that firm ground/illusion. I think most of us having seen the Matrix would have no personal crises taking the blue pill. Heck, I would. if in fact reality was like the Matrix.

The strange thing is that existence is the opposite of what the Matrix is, and people are living in the Red pill zone, plugged into madness and eating/swallowing yucky stuff.

reply to post by sleeper


I am trying to use some select words to convey the idea that you are preaching - in large part - to the choir in our brief correspondence.

I just noticed that John Lear used his real name here at ATS... I had supposed that was taboo or I would have done the same. Even still, everyone loves a good mystery so we can go with it. Who knows, maybe there is some order to the chaos.

All the best,

PM