Prophecies about Islam in the Bible

I'm eager to know how you people will try to dodge this.

In Deuteronomy 33:2, we see Moses peace be upon him predicting that GOD Almighty will execute His Holy Judgement in the city of Paran by 10,000 of Believers:

"And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (From the King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"

We also read about the same prophecy by Prophet Enoch peace be upon him:

"And Enoch [Idris in Arabic, one of Allah Almighty's Prophets peace be upon all of them to the people of Israel.] also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"

Now, according to the Islamic history, the city of Mecca (Paran) was liberated by Prophet Muhammad's 10,000-men army. The irrefutable historical proofs for this are located in this article: The story of the 10,000 Muslims who liberated Mecca (Paran) in the Bible.

Now, since these prophecies were foretold in the Bible's Old Testament, I would like to openly challenge any Jewish Rabbi or Christian Priest or Minister to answer the following questions for me:

Where in the Bible do we see directly or indirectly, remotely or inremotely, the number 10,000 being associated or linked to any Prophet in the Bible, for any place or any time?

Where in the Bible do we see any Biblical Prophet leading any type of 10,000-men army of any kind?

And, where in the Bible do we see any Prophet executing the Judgement of GOD Almighty specifically in the city of Paran (Mecca, the city that Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael to)?

If Muhammad who liberated the city of Paran (Mecca) with 10,000 Believing Men (Saints) wasn't the one who fulfilled this Biblical Prophecy, then who was that Prophet?

Wasn't Muhammad through the Divine Religion of Islam the one who ended the idol worshiping of the 365 gods, and ended the brutal slavery and the torturing of women (burying daughters alive at the age of 4 was the pagan Arabs custom)?

Didn't Muhammad bring the Arabs from the total darkness of polytheism and evil to the Light of Worshiping the One True Living GOD Almighty and associated no partners with Him?

Wasn't Muhammad fruitful, and a true man of GOD Almighty?

Again, please visit The story of the 10,000 Muslims who liberated Mecca (Paran) in the Bible.

The proof that the city of Paran is Mecca.

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Prophet Isaiah peace be upon him prophesied that two leaders whom he called "Chariot" would come -- one riding a donkey, and another riding a camel:

"And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed: (From the King James Version Bible, Isaiah 21:7)"

Who are the "couple of horsemen"? They are Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them. Let us see the proof:

Jesus fulfilled the riding of the donkey prophecy: "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, (John 12:14)"

The quote "as it is written" is referring to Isaiah 21:7. It is important to know that no where in the New Testament do we see Jesus riding any camel. No where in the New Testament do we see any fulfillment of any kind about the prophecy of riding the camel.

When we look at Muhammad peace be upon him, he rode the camel several times in his life time. The most popular event of him riding the camel is when he migrated from Mecca to Medina to escape the torture of the pagans.

Not only that, but when the Muslims in Medina wanted to build the first Islamic Mosque and the Prophet's humble Home next to it, they had conflicts among each others about the location, because each group/tribe wanted the location to be as near to them as possible. So, to avoid the conflict of "favoritism", the Prophet peace be upon him ordered for his camel to decide the location by letting it walk and settle in the place that it naturally chooses.

This wisdom from Prophet Muhammad which relied solely on his camel solved the problem.

Now, my open challenge to any Jewish Rabbi or Christian Priest or Minister is as follows:

Where in the Bible do we see the riding of the camel Prophecy being fulfilled?

Who in the Bible was the Prophet that rode the camel to fulfill the Prophecy of Isaiah 21:7? The New Testament only fulfills the riding of the donkey prophecy in John 12:14, and it claims that it only fulfilled that prophecy.

There is still a missing fulfillment of the riding of the camel in the New Testament. Why?

If Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him wasn't the one who fulfilled the remaining of Isaiah 21:7 prophecy, then who was that Prophet?

Please visit Isaiah's Vision: He saw Jesus riding a donkey and Muhammad riding a camel. He also saw the destruction of Babylon (i.e. Iraq today) and its idol gods, and replacing them with a Divine Religion (i.e. Islam today).
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In the Old Testament, we read about GOD Almighty promising to create "Great Nations" from Ishmael, Abraham's first Son and the father of the Muslims:

Genesis 12:1-3

1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.
2 "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

The quote "go to the land I will show you" is referring to the city of Paran (Mecca). See the Biblical proofs here.

The quote "I will make you into a great nation" is quite interesting. How can GOD Almighty call the Muslims, who came from Ishmael, a "great nation" if they are as the modern Christians of today consider them to be "Satan's followers"? How can we be a "great nation" in the eyes of GOD Almighty if we are hated by Him?

The quote "I will bless those who bless you" perfectly fits the Muslims. As you probably know, we Muslims worship Allah Almighty by prostrating to Him. Every time we pray and prostrate, we end our prayer by sitting on our knees and say the following exact quote:

"........and bless Prophet Muhammad and the people of Prophet Muhammad, like You blessed Prophet Abraham and the people of Prophet Abraham........"

As you clearly see, we bless Prophet Abraham every single day of our lives when we pray to Allah Almighty. We also do say "peace be upon him" or "peace and blessings be upon him" when we refer to his name or any other Prophet's name.

My open challenge to any Jewish Rabbi or Christian Priest or Minister is:

How can the Muslims be cursed and considered satan followers when GOD Almighty in Genesis 12:3 blesses them because they bless Abraham?

How can the Muslims be cursed by GOD Almighty when they bow down to Him and only Him in prostration?

Yes, the Muslims are the "great nation" that GOD Almighty talked about, they are blessed by Him because they worship non but Him, and they bless Abraham everyday in their Prayers



www.answering-christianity.com...


[Edited on 2-15-2003 by Illmatic67]

Illmatic ill adress one prophecy at a time.

1. first of all in (no) bible does it say ten thousand, infact the guy from that website took
out an (s).

and heres proof.

I have three bibles and non of them say (ten) thousand.


KJV. Deuteronomy 33:2

"" And this is the blessing, wherewith moses the man of god, blessed
the children of israel before his death, and he said the lord came from sinai and
rose up from seir unto them; he shined from mount paran, and he came with (ten) thousand(s)
of saints, fom his right hand went a fiery law for them ""


i have the kjv right in my lap and it says ten thousands.

meaning a large amount over ten thousand. so the guy took out an s.


2. I have two catholic bibles which do not say ten thousand exactly.



so what bible says (ten) thousand because the KJV does not. nor any other bible i have.



3. the one about genesis 12:3

talks about the covanent he makes with abraham (before) the old law of moses (before) moses led them to
the holy land.

This is the (great) nation, and the (blessing) of his name.

as we see in

Genesis 12:7

"" the lord said to abraham, to thy seed i will give this land, and he built
(there) an (alter) to the lord ""

Genesis 13:12

"" abraham dwelt in the land of chanaan ""

"" and the lord said to him, lift up thy eyes, and look from the place where
thou (art), to the north and to the south, est, and west, all the land which thou seest, i will
give to thee and to (thy) (seed) (forever) ""


Ill get to the other passages until you tell me where you got (ten) thousand?

Its not in the KJV, nor DR, nor VTB.

Not once does it saay (ten) thousand exactly.

peace.

How is ten of thousands referring to more than ten thousand?

If it was more than ten thousand, it would've said more than ten thousand wouldnt it

how are you sure the s on thousands refers to more than what is written


and how many versions of the bible are there, it's ridiculous

How is mecca the great nation?

Ill prove its not by passages.

1. Mecca is located in Saudi arabia in a western city.


when infact god told abraham he will give him the land of canaan and his seed forever>


Psalms 104:11

"" To (thee) i will give the land of (chanaan), the lot of your inheritance ""


before in verse 10

"" which he made to (abraham), and his oath to isaac, and he appointed the same to jacob for a law and to
(israel) for an ever lasting testament saying......

"" To (thee) will i give the (land) of (chanaan), the lot of your inheritance ""


this cannot be mecca.

again we see in

Genesis 17:8

"" And i will give to thee, and to thy (seed), the land of the sojournment, all
the land of (chanaan) for a perpetual possesion, and i will be their god ""

It cannot be mecca.

again in

Deuteronomy 12:9

"" you shall pass over the (jordan), and shall dwell in the land the lord has given you ""

where is the jordan illmatic?

how can it be mecca?

It cannot be.

please give the guy who asked this question this thread.

peace.

How many versions? I currently have about six OT versions, 3 NT versions, one several KJ versions.(couldn't find them all) Now what am I doing with all these? Well, used them to look stuff up about god ordering infantcide, jesus ordering people to hate their families if they want him to teach them, sending fire down to kill thousands because three people there don't believe in him.

And Il67, ten of thousands means ten thousand, truth is doing his u(su)al. And anyo(n)e h(er)e for awhile knows w)ha(t the u(sual )is.

[Edited on 16-2-2003 by James the Lesser]

Oh james give it a rest.

you hate all religions so dont act like your behind the muslim cause.

do you believe god?

muslims believe god.

there you go james.

illmatic please believe what im saying when i say mecca is not the great nation, many
times god says its the land of chanaan near the jordan river to abraham and in the verses i gave, if you
dont believe me look in the bible.


Im interested in these challenges and learn more everytime i see them.

also in non of my bibles does it say ten thousand.

It says, tens of thousands or thousands of men.

the KJV says ten thousands of men.

the guy took out an s.

peace.

truth.. DUH. i know mecca is not the great nation that God gave Abraham... that land is Israel, I know that.

but Mecca is a great nation in it's own sense... it's the second holiest land in all the world and Abraham and Ishmael and Moses indeed set foot in the city of Mecca.

I only have time to look at the first one as well here goes...

You want accuracy then look at the original hebrew first...

10,000 = r@babah [reb-aw-baw']
possibilities... 1) multitude, myriad, ten thousand

Other verses with it...here

So it MAY mean more, than 10,000, this is not specific.

What about the saints part?
saints = qodesh [ko'-desh]
1) apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness a) apartness, sacredness, holiness 1) of God
2) of places
3) of things b) set-apartness, separateness

Often used to refer to angels..
Someone said.. "ten thousands of saints--rendered by some, "with the ten thousand of Kadesh," or perhaps better still, "from Meribah"" so could refer to people from Kadesh ...

also could be part of a great story... another pserson said..

"The Jerusalem Targum has a strange gloss upon this, that, "when God came down to give the law, he offered it on Mount Seir to the Edomites, but they refused it, because they found in it, Thou shalt not kill.
Then he offered it on Mount Paran to the Ishmaelites, but they also refused it, because they found in it, Thou shalt not steal; and then he came to Mount Sinai and offered it to Israel, and they said, All that the Lord shall say we will do.��
I would not have transcribed so groundless a conceit but for the antiquity of it."


So it seems that this verse is vague enough so that you can make your case for anything you want....

My personal comment is "Is this the best you can do?" vague scriptures from the OT that can be twisted to refer to whatever wheelbarrow you are pushing?

You mean to say is Mhammed is the person you claim he is that you ahve to look up such obscure verses to justify your claims, you mean that the prophets talked in riddles? They certainly didn't about jesus, noting his birth, life and death etc, but they have to with Mohammed?

What does that say about Mohammed that he ISN"T explicitly mentioned in the bible? That you HAVE to make inferences about him?

The reference about the 10,000 saints isnt the only one there... how about the donkey and the camel... who was the camel then?

I know Jesus was predicted, birth and death but Muhammad was predicted in the bible in many ways

Isisiah predicted that babylon (today iraq) and that a divine religion will replace her idols and gods... what's the main religion today in iraq , Islam...

if not, then what can that divine religion be?

I dont HAVE to make references about Islam and Mohammad being in the Bible because those references have already been MADE... all you have to do is look past your little chrisitian bias and your post 9-11 islam hatred and look for it because it's already there... but in your case and in truth's case that's impossible because you have been brainwashed to think otherwise.

the truth will slap you in the face and it wont leave a mark.

[Edited on 2-16-2003 by Illmatic67]

Hmm, why am I not suprised at your comments..

You don't like it when you house of cards is so easily demolished....

Ok lets look at the other verse...
Why I bother I don't know, maybe there is some vague part inside of me that you really meant it when you said that you wanted to know...

Firstly lets put things in context, (hard to do if you don't READ the bible) look at verse 15...

Jhn 12:14 And Jesus, when he had found a young a$s, sat thereon; as it is written,
Jhn 12:15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

"as it is written" is obviously referring to verse 15.

Zec9:9 - the source of verse 15 (and the OT source you are looking for) says..

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an a$s, and upon a colt the foal of an a$s."

So there is NO connection between Jesus and the verse in Ishaih, and certainly no connection between jesus and Mohammed.

It is this sort of deliberate (it must be deliberate people cant''t be that stupid) twisting of scripture that appals me. with an ordinay bible with a commentary in 5 minutes I was able to demolish a major part of your thesis. Why did you not see it for yourself? beause you don't want to,


Having shown the connection between Jesus and Mohammend to be false, should I bother to rip the rest of your post to shreds (about what Ishaih is REALLY saying) or are you just going to abuse me at this point and ignore the truth?


Truely Illumatic, as I said before Is this the best you can do?
Is this the best you can cobble together to prove mohammed in the bible?
Is you religion so deficient in biblical accuracy that this is what people are teaching you?

Do you really believe this?
Have you ever read the bible and understood it, or are you just quoting what someone else has written?because any student of the bible can and would answer as I have.

You wanted an answer, you wanted a debate I gave it to you, your emperor (mohammed) has no clothes, no legitmacy in the bible, he is not mentioned, does not exist was not even considered....



[Edited on 16-2-2003 by Netchicken]

Illmatic please listen.

Im not trying to win an argument.


1. Mohammed is not mentioned in the OT.

ive already mentioned that the prophecy of one will be raised up amongst your brethern was not him
because of the prophecies that had to come true.

you agreed it was not him that was mentioned after reading it fully.

did you not?


2. Nowhere in any passages of genesis does it say ten thousand, the guy took out
an s.

also read this link about paran.

read it fully.

www.answering-islam.org...


Its a great article on the claim that paran is mecca.


3. Babylon is not iraq

babylon was replaced by a great religion which replaced idols ect..

what used to be rome?

what is in rome now?

It has converted to christianity.

iraq doesnt even fit one prophecy of babylon at all.


I just cant agree with a religion which promises virgins in heaven
for good deeds.

Not because of 9/11

but because of (conscience) which i know even you have.


peace.

So there is NO connection between Jesus and the verse in Ishaih, and certainly no connection between jesus and Mohammed.

well i'm looking at the verse in matthew about Jesus' return to jerusalem and there's a little thing we smart people like to call a footnote and on the bottom of pages are where footnotes are and these little things called footnotes tell me to refer back to the verse in Isiaiah referring to the rider on a donkey and the rider on the camel.

should I bother to rip the rest of your post to shreds

why dont you stop with the little instigating a playground fight.... i'll make you put your pride on the rocks and make you swallow it all you little girl.

3. Babylon is not iraq

do i have to say anything about this?

truth, look in any enclycopedia.. it will say babylonia was in modern day iraq.

[Edited on 2-16-2003 by Illmatic67]

I am extremely interested in the bible version you are reading as NONE of the bibles I have and use, nor any of the online ones I consulted EVER mentioned that. It is always Zech 9.9.

Is your the "bible for muslims who want to be seen as legitmate in the eyes of christians?"

You don't like it when you are attacked do you? I wasn't instigating a playground fight, (of which you would also be outclassed in) you make claims about mohammed in the bible and when the crunch comes and you show your cards what do we see? Misquotes, distortions and vagaries.

Attempts to show islam and mohammed in the bible do nothing more than display the deceit, falsehood and distortion that is islam.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
well i'm looking at the verse in matthew about Jesus' return to jerusalem and there's a little thing we smart people like to call a footnote and on the bottom of pages are where footnotes are and these little things called footnotes tell me to refer back to the verse in Isiaiah referring to the rider on a donkey and the rider on the camel.

[Edited on 16-2-2003 by Netchicken]

I am extremely interested in the bible version you are reading as NONE of the bibles I have and use EVER mentioned that. It is always Zech 9.9

funny, I only thought there was one Bible.. how can we be reading different versions of the bible? I thought christianity was the truth, but if it's the so called truth how comes there's revised versions of the first revised versions.


you claim Islam is deceitful, I can tell you know nothing about Islam..

you want to talk about deceit... then it's christianity that's deceitful with the numerous of bible versions.

How can you have a revised revised version of the bible? Why has the bible gone through so many changes and the qur'an remained the qur'an from when it first started? hmmm...

If we start at the very beginning (a very good place to start as the saintly Julie Andrews reminds us): how exactly do you equate "Paran" with Mecca?
The drivel-rich link at "answering-c."
www.answering-christianity.com...
is a model of turgid inconsequentiality.
A much more persuasive refutation (requires reading) is here:
answering-islam.org...
I'm claiming nothing for either (though the latter at least attempts scholarship and reason); but if nothing else the two together should at least compel us to the view that the initial identification in this thread is at best highly dubious.
And that being so: the 10,000 - be they saints or Muhammad's army - falls to nothing.
It really is thin old stuff.

Thats a good point est about Paran. I hadn't investigated that thinking that I would at least give Illmatic a chance

here is a def...

Paran: abounding in foliage, or abounding in caverns, ( Gen 21:21),
a desert tract forming the north- eastern division of the peninsula of Sinai, lying between the 'Arabah on the east and the wilderness of Shur on the west. It is intersected in a north-western direction by the Wady el-'Arish.

It bears the modern name of Badiet et-Tih, i.e., "the desert of the wanderings." This district, through which the children of Israel wandered, lay three days' march from Sinai ( Num 10:12,33).
From Kadesh, in this wilderness, spies ( q.v.) were sent to spy the land ( 13:3,26). Here, long afterwards, David found refuge from Saul ( 1Sa 25:1,4).

www.blueletterbible.org...


ahhh that explains the 10,000 "saints" as being possibly people from Kadesh. Its in the same region.

Well there is another mistake Illmatic, turns out that Paran ISN'T EVEN MECCA.




Pic removed to avoid ofending illmatic


[Edited on 16-2-2003 by Netchicken]

[Edited on 17-2-2003 by Netchicken]

And would you not have thought, Net-C that the three days' march alluded to in Numbers ( there are frequent references to Paran -not just in Deuteronomy!! fro Genesis to Habakkuk) would have made it pretty obvious that, unless they were on steroids, they would not be arriving in Mecca?

Well, I have four OT, three NT, and several KJ versions all different.

And of course they aren't the original versions. The bible has been edited by thousands of people millions of times. And is that picture of Malcom X? How dare you do such a thing to him NC. I don't agree with his ideas, but Malcom X was a great leader.(sorry, just don't get why we celebrate MLK day but no MX day hen they both helped the blacks)

James, peace to you

Don't worry why Net disrespects Malcolm X...

in his defense, net is a little bitch, that's why he does so.

Dearest illmatic, I know where you come from thats what you say to your partner as a term of affection .. but we are not a gay couple in San Fransisco.

Please rise above such terms of endearment and try and keep this debate on a more professional level. You can bitch-slap me later duckie if you wish, if it turns you on.

Back with the topic do you have any more places in the bible where Mohammed is meant to be? (maybe hiding in the spine or under the flyleaf)

I am bored and would like another challange...



[Edited on 17-2-2003 by Netchicken]