“Hey God, why not just come out and directly tell us?” What’s with all the MYSTERY in TRUTH?�

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
Simply paraphrased...

"You want truth? You can't handle the truth!" - Jack Nickleson

AAC

AAC? Me, or the reader? Clarify bro!

OT

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
......To know is to have proof and proof and faith cannot coexist.

Now? please...what does that mean? Any evidence to support this premise? I've got over 500 quotes from scientists with observable/authorized discoveries that would clearly disagree with you...George Washington Carver, with 300 discoveries who said...
(agricultural chemist, inventor of over 300 products)
"Without my Savior, I am nothing."
"I love to think of nature as an unlimited broadcasting station,
through which God speaks to us every hour, if we will only tune in."
"God is going to reveal to us things he never revealed before if we put our hands in his. No books ever go into my laboratory, a thing I am to do and the way of doing it are revealed me."


is he delusional friend?

OT

[edit on 10-8-2009 by OldThinker]

Hi OT. Taking a few minutes before bed to give my 2 cents on your very interesting post.

I don't think it matters one whit to whomever or whatever one might call god how we believe about god. I think it is how we ultimately live our life as well as recognizing and learning from out mistakes.

It would be beyond comprehensible for there to be so many beliefs in the world and only one that will ultimately relieve you of this life into a better one, then punish you because you can't figure it out. Why would someone brainwashed from day one believe in something someone else (brainwashed since day one) told him was true? If belief in the 'true' god was important, and the one god refuses to let you in on the secret in a way you can know without a doubt, it leaves you little to do but question. And it makes one wonder if god is what is important at all. The pursuit of a meaningless question, a diversion from what it really important in life...the changes we make and the pursuit of 'purity' (for lack of a better word). Learn our lessons, make changes and move on to the next.

Maybe god is an old god, maybe god is one of destruction and war and chaos, one that is described in fantasy and lore of long destroyed civilizations. Maybe he is the god who erupts volcanoes as a cruel punishment for disbelife, maybe he is the god who demands the blood of a virgin as a sacrifice.

I don't think it is that way, I don't think that god can intervene with human affairs. I think that god is just there, frowning upon his creations as we destroy each other, and embracing those who move to happiness, those who move toward him and try to reach him.

Why do we think we can handle everything huh?

WE ARE NOT GOD!!! AND WE ARE NOT AT THE SAME INTELECTUAL LEVEL

How do you explain to a mouse a car's engine?

We might think we are very "inteligent" but do you really think we can handle the knowledge from the microuniverse to the macrouniverse?

Let's make an example:

"John Doe" has 25 year old and has a very healthy life. He does a lot of exercise and has a very healthy alimentation. Is a very charming person and he thinks he has a promesing future. One day he find out that he has a very agressive cancer so he try to recover and go to treatment. There he knows a little boy called "Paul" that also is sick of cancer. The kid have only 12 years old and is very depressed because of his illnes to the point that he doesn't want to live anymore. So they become very good friends and together they support each other to go trough. One day John tells to Paul that he should studied medicine scientist instead of been an attorney at law to find a way to cure cancer but he can't back in time. After a long fight for survive John die. Paul get health again and he keep going his life. 20 years later Paul has become in scientist and has found the cure to cancer...
What would happen if from the beginning GOD told to John that he has to go trough a nightmare of pain and at the end is going to die in order to meet,help and inspire Paul to find the cure of cancer?

Will John agree with the plan?

And what if it wasn't John, if it was you?

Will you agree to that plan?

Humans doesn't have to know all the path, just have to know next step and keep walking.

Reply to post by OldThinker

I have no evidence to support the statement that George Washington Carver was deusional, nor do I think he was.

My statement is that faith, no matter the religion, is belief in a God that we cannot scientifically prove.
Note prove.
With that being said, proof is scientific fact.
Therefore, to have faith is to disregard scientific means for proof. And to gain proof, is to make faith obsolete, cause then you would have truth. You would not need to BELIEVE because you would KNOW.

I am sorry if this causes confusion. That's just my take on the matter.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Ok, I have a different slant on the whole god thing to most. In my paradigm, god does not love you, god does not hate you. God does not punish, and god does not reward.

God came into existence and wanted to learn about itself. To do this it projected outwardly parts of its own consciousness. Those parts eventually became human souls.

So we are here on behalf of god to learn about the universe and all that is in it. When we eventually learn everything, we stop incarnating and return to the source (god) to assimilate our knowledge with it.

So, the statement that we are all part of the divine (god) is true. That we are all connected is true. That god gives a damn about us is FALSE.

It is trying to learn, so why would it interfere? God is ambivalent at best about humans and all of the other animals on the planet. We are only parts of itself trying to learn.

Do you reward or punish your big toe? What about your finger nail?

As far as communication goes, we are like plants. God knows we are alive, but we lack the ability to communicate with god on its own level.

In short, because mankind could not communicate with god, the humans just made up stuff to make god more understandable. So the attributed human attributes to god. Things like anger, happiness, love, hate, jealousy etc. These are all human emotions.

So all of the so-called sacred texts, songs, places, beliefs etc. are all man made. All suffering is a direct result of the life choices you have made to date. Ultimately YOU are responsible for EVERY action or event in your life!

GOD DOES NOT CARE.

OT,
What is your own opinion/answer to your own question?

You've heard many of ours, its your turn

Originally posted by dominuz
"John Doe" has 25 year old and has a very healthy life. He does a lot of exercise and has a very healthy alimentation. Is a very charming person and he thinks he has a promesing future. One day he find out that he has a very agressive cancer so he try to recover and go to treatment. There he knows a little boy called "Paul" that also is sick of cancer. The kid have only 12 years old and is very depressed because of his illnes to the point that he doesn't want to live anymore. So they become very good friends and together they support each other to go trough. One day John tells to Paul that he should studied medicine scientist instead of been an attorney at law to find a way to cure cancer but he can't back in time. After a long fight for survive John die. Paul get health again and he keep going his life. 20 years later Paul has become in scientist and has found the cure to cancer...
What would happen if from the beginning GOD told to John that he has to go trough a nightmare of pain and at the end is going to die in order to meet,help and inspire Paul to find the cure of cancer?

Will John agree with the plan?

And what if it wasn't John, if it was you?

Will you agree to that plan?

Humans doesn't have to know all the path, just have to know next step and keep walking.

What kind of a sick mind puts someone through the misery of cancer, makes another guy die, so that he's worthy of the reward at the end.
Is He some kind of sadist that will only reward when we experienced enough suffering?
Why as god create cancer in the first place?
It must be all part of that mysterious plan...

reply to post by WorldObserver

I was saddened to read your post, and posts of others who feel God does not care about them or answer them. Of course, part of the problem is as was posted earlier, we are not able to comprehend God and we tend to make Him a man, of sorts, in order to understand Him. Of course, in the person of Jesus, we are given a short encounter with Him to see His love for us.

In the OP, a concern mentioned was God's communication with us. Many feel He is a poor communicator. However, He gave you a book, the Bible, to understand more about Him. It is the most proven text in history, but seems to occupy the back shelf in the minds of unbelievers. The Bible is God talking to you. May I suggest you read it for your answers. I would presuppose some of you have not read it thoroughly. I find it compelling and obvious that God is represented well in the Bible. One can prove the truth of the Bible in many ways. Please refer to www.equip.org for a description of those ways.

God chooses the time and place to reveal Himself. It will be the best time for you. It may not be early in life. However, He will be with you through your life, watching and guiding you through your problems because He loves you. He will work out things the best for you, even though you may think it is tragic or unfair. He is looking at the finish line, not the path to it, in His plan for your life.

He may reveal Himself to you, so that you can see Him. See John 14:21. However, many things depend on you, and whether you can receive it. John 14:17. Your love for Him is based on your actions. John 14:23-24. While He is not condemning you (John 3:16-18), He is hoping to reach you, either here or in the hereafter (I Peter 3:19-21).

For those who believe He is not trying hard enough, try crucifying yourself for someone else.

reply to post by OldThinker


That's the funny thing OT. Truth is what is before us every day. The truth is, people won't accept it. The truth is "There is no other God, I know not one". The truth is God honors no man, being all men from beginning to end, thus JUST, Fair, Knowing Good and Evil and eating from the tree of life, that is the family tree. People forget we are a body, each wanting to be the body themselves, but it doesn't work that way. We are to serve one another, just as the cells in your body serve you, because we are a body, that is, the body of God. Man dies, but God lives forever. Cells die, but man lives a lifetime. Top to bottom all the same. It really comes down to perspective i'd say.

Never been another way to life, and there never will be another way, but hey fantasy is fun too. Mystical Angels, Miracles, Resurrecting from the dead rather then resurrecting from death now. People love those things, too bad they won't come true. It is said "Repent". This means "Re-think".

People make it hard, God has never changed, they just refuse to see him in search of mystery.

"If possible, even the elect would be fooled"...

Peace out.

Originally posted by Jim Scott
In the OP, a concern mentioned was God's communication with us. Many feel He is a poor communicator. However, He gave you a book, the Bible, to understand more about Him. It is the most proven text in history, but seems to occupy the back shelf in the minds of unbelievers. The Bible is God talking to you. May I suggest you read it for your answers. I would presuppose some of you have not read it thoroughly. I find it compelling and obvious that God is represented well in the Bible. One can prove the truth of the Bible in many ways. Please refer to www.equip.org for a description of those ways.

See, i'm willing to believe you, but the Khoran also says that they are the true words of good, and as its more recent, it probably is what god really wanted us to know.
Or you could probably say that the vedas are the true words of god, they are after all the oldest scriptures of a religion. So many words of god, so little time...

reply to post by OldThinker


If somebody tells me something ....then I have the answer but I don't really understand the answer I just have it...

I won't know what to do with that answer nor how to go about pondering it and putting it to use....

If I go through all the hardships in finding out that answer, then I have learned everything that came before the answer and therefore better appreciate the answer and what it stands for and what it means to UNDERSTAND the answer...


Why do we want everything given to us?

We must earn the truth..........Otherwise we are not ready for it....

Originally posted by mrwupy
Where would the fun be in the adventure if we were to suddenly know it all?

Besides,

"If you can't see God in everything, you can't see God in anything."

I like the quote...

Does that mean God is life......

We are really praying to Life and the essence of life within we all live....

am i close?

reply to post by madeioo


Please apply the basic tests for truth in scripture to all holy scriptures. See which one comes out on top. Coincidentally (?) the God for those scriptures that come out on top is not dead. He lives.

www.equip.org...
www.bibleprobe.com...

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Jim Scott]

Great thread. I'm just now coming into an understanding of this, although in no way can I explain it as eloquently as it was explained to me but I will try.

God knows the hearts of all man. He knows that some knowmatter what he does will choose not to accept the truth, so why reveal anything more than the basics to them? Deeper truths God wants us to seek for. He wants us prove we are hungry for the truth by our searching.
Some great stuff on the truth about TEOTWAWKI has been mostly hidden until now can be found here.
Endtimes

Here is what I've come to learn:

Most every time, questions in the Bible (especially the NEW Testament) are proposed it is intended for the believer to seek out the higher spiritual meanings/truths behind them. Whether a person believes it is God or the Word of God speaking to or through Isaiah, we should at least all agree, according to Is 45:19, that God never intended to be sought in vain. The word faith is used so broadly anymore, sometimes it seems people lose sight of the intended goal; the ideal relationship with God, the Father.

I have faith, that God will see my family through this recession. I have faith that God can make million dollar mistakes vanish. I have faith, that God will continue to teach me his mysteries and I have this type of faith because of Jesus. Jesus came to reveal God, so we can know him and when a person knows God, they can ask for anything as long as it is in His will - it will be done. As Christians, we are supposed to be filled with joy, but if I have to worry how I am going to pay my bills etc. and am in constant distress - what joy is there in that? John the Baptist was filled with joy just from hearing the Bridegrooms voice. Can you imagine the complete joy of an actual Bride of Christ? I know that joy and I want everyone else to know that joy.


Look carefully at the dialogue between Pilate and Jesus and what led up to Pilate asking Jesus, 'What is truth'?

Pilate: Are you the king of the Jews?

Jesus: Is that your own idea or did others talk to you about me?

Pilate: Am I a Jew? It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?

Jesus: My kingdom is not of this world. If it were my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.

Pilate: You are a king, then!

Jesus: You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.

Pilate: What is truth?

Now ask yourselves, the same question about Jesus being king, that Jesus asked Pilate:

Is that your own idea or do you just believe it because you have read it and others have told you it is so?

People need to critically think about the things he said because it's all a part of the "way." Church is great for fellowship but the path to God is solitary; narrow. It's disheartning to know, that few find the truth, but because we are in the age of Grace all can know the truth and if you want to know the truth just ask.

I was brought up to fear God and fearing God is good because it is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom. We fear that which we do not know and for good reason. Should I go so far as to say, that he has a soft side for tears of those in distress? He does. True repentance brings the spiritual realm one step closer to the believer.

If God is Spirit what kind of things do you think God COULD do to get your attention and to wake up your sleeping spirit?



[edit on 11-8-2009 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply to post by madeioo


All im saying is that everything has a deeper meaning even been sick of cancer has a deeper meaning.

So basically you think we only should experience good things?

If it that so why would be alive anyway?

We are here to experience everything, from pain to pleasure, from sadness to happiness, and is trough that process that we make bounds with others and that bounds make us humans.

Did God created cancer? Maybe yes but also he created us and if that and other diseases is the price of living so be it.

Everything in life has a price to pay and nature prove it.

For a new star to born other has to die, for an animal to live other has to die.

After all God had an eternity creating this plan. How can we understand it in our very very short life spam?

[edit on 11-8-2009 by dominuz]

reply to post by OldThinker

Certainly an all powerful God who wanted to convey a MESSAGE could, right? I wonder why there are SO many differing opinions on TRUTH… i.e Pilate asking satirically, “what’s truth?”

A truth is something you can understand and arrive at.

Christians might argue that Jesus dying on the cross is a simple truth that anyone can understand.

But that is like understanding the story of Moby Dick or that Zeus could throw thunderbolts.

Anybody can understand the stories.

This is understanding of the languages and stories and histories. It does not necessarily mean they are true.

People with critical minds will ask why did Jesus die for us. "Well, to save us from hell." "Well, why did God create hell in the first place?" Etc., etc.

Truth vs. belief (what people have come to accept as truth).

One can understand mathematics, physics, etc. It doesn't require belief because you can see the results and UNDERSTAND them on your own.

People can understand the relationships between them and the other people or their gods. You may say they are relative truths. But relationships hinder on what you see and understand.

Even if God (fundamentalist's concept of God) came down and announced to everyone that it was all true (Jesus dying on the cross, hell, being saved, etc, etc), many people will say that it does not make sense. It is not something one can arrive at.

We can understand the actions of Hitler and Nazi soldiers. We see them doing it. But what we are struggling to understand is why they did what they did. We understand the truth of compassion, love, etc. Their evil actions are not something we accept.