Skepticism: A Call to Arms

reply to post by nethawk


I believe if a skeptic who is less likely to believe just anything has truly found something it may be more relevant that the one who says “This feels right to me”. This way it doesn’t have to feel right but just be right to everyone not just to the presenter.

Originally posted by Office 4256
I've been involved in the UFO world for about thirty years, on and off, mostly on. I was a MUFON field investigator and State Section Director until the "Gulf Breeze" mess, when I detected that some "serious" UFO investigators were going new age on us and the national organization refused to police itself.

Thank you for your comments and sharing your personal experiences.

This was exactly what I was talking about when I said that some of it was our fault - serious, or supposedly serious, groups and investigators giving a pass to this sort of thing or even going new age themselves.

Of course saying that we should police ourselves better is not a very popular thing to say, but there's really so much crap in this field that it is long overdue. This is, of course, assuming there is a field left to be rescued after all the kooks, frauds and charlatans associated with it.

MUFON may be better than it was in the early 1990's, but I'm still looking for a network of people who want to know rather than believe.

The problem is that there isn't any money in serious UFO research.

It also takes up a lot of time and effort to actually investigate cases, gather and study the evidence and make sense of the data. It's a lot easier to tell people you know the answers because the aliens told you, and then charge them for tickets, books or DVDs for a glimpse of the 'truth'.

If UFOs were taken seriously and the field was respectable as it was once was, besides having some chance at making Congress having to listen to us again, if the scientific community took interest in it maybe people and groups could even apply for NSF funds.

I am, as you've probably noticed, daydreaming.

Great post!

In the X-File vain, "I wanna believe". I really do, I know there is stuff out there that is unexplained, that I want explanations for.

Unfortunately, stories to me are just anecdotal. They are enough to say something needs to be looked-into, but not something that can stand by themselves.

Similarly, lights-in-the-sky don't say too much to me either. Simply because a light is moving in the sky in a way we are not accustomed to seeing - doesn't make it a reptilian space-craft! It might be, but it might also be a satellite or something conventional that it is just impossible to interpret correctly - probably due to lack of a means to accurately determine depth in view (distance), etc.

But, enough venting from me. Of course, I'm also part of the NWO, and apparently here to spread dis-information, so don't take anything I say as valid.

Peace to all (except Osama bin Laden).

I think we have PLENTY of skeptics here.

We certainly don't need more.

Rather, repeat threads need to be nixed or combined as I've noticed some subjects that have been repeated a few times.

reply to post by Janitor From Mars


But you have to be careful "nixing repeat threads", what if the thread is 3 years old and not well covered. A lot of cases I have "rehashed" here on ATS were already covered (sometimes a few times), but never to the appropriate extent they deserved, plus a lot were so old no one would ever see them. Now if it is something like a repeat thread of one that was posted a few weeks ago then sure, but still--if the duplicate is much better presented (say four OPs, and not a link and a sentence) then I say let the better one ride.

It is extremly difficult to not find a repeat subject on ATS.

reply to post by Office 4256


so I take it we have that in common... Damn the unscientific retards, and damn the over spiritualists that think every alien is peaceful and wants to teach us of love. I say use the science, and use the hyperdimentional physics, and learn more about the infamous "they" so one day we can give "they, them" a name. I for one can see how metaphysics, is just as important as hyperdimentional and even astro physics are in all of this ufo nonesense. one should be spiritual... but they should also be logical. Whats funny is these same uberspiritualists are the first to laugh at those that say Jesus.. and laugh because christians believe the world was created in seven days. How is "but we will chanell the plutionans and the lizard people will come to show us love will take us all over" ANY different?

Originally posted by Janitor From Mars
I think we have PLENTY of skeptics here.
We certainly don't need more.

I respectfully disagree.

Rather, repeat threads need to be nixed or combined as I've noticed some subjects that have been repeated a few times.

If you mean threads like "Disclosure - any time now" or "Undeniable proof of aliens - check this Youtube video" I've noticed that too

The problem with the UFO field is that the subject matter is heading to the realm of fiction and myth. How many times have any of us on ATS clicked on a post from someone claiming to be from another planet with prophetic visions in tow? The nonsense that has invaded and invalidated the search for the truth behind the cloud of government secrecy has become a chaotic shambles of a mess.

I totally agree with Converge (thanks for the U2U!) 110%
I have been investigating and researching this field and archeology in my spare time since I was 16, I am 37 years old (OLD!) now. In my years I have seen that there are skeptics that are beyond skeptical – IMHO, they are nearly the same as the new age BS that has invalidated the phenomena. Why? Because they share the same covering cloud of chaos that throws any type of valid research out the window.

Now, I am not saying that ALL skeptics are this way – there is a valid need for skepticism, otherwise we would all believe in those “I am an alien” posts (well some would). There needs to be legitimate research with skepticism on a scientific level – not a level of denial just to outright invalidate findings.

Peace,
Kroms33

reply to post by converge


I am with you with the exception of that whole "extraordinary" business as the term is subjective. What is extraordinary for me may not be for you and vice versa. At one time the sun being the center of our solar system may have been an extraordinary claim, and the proof difficult to come by with existing technology.

There should be no "extraordinary" claim in science. If you said to me last year that frogs could fly I would have called bulls***. If you said to the children of the seventies who enjoyed the helloutta pong that the kids today would have bluetooth, global RPG realistic live gaming they would have thought it science fiction.

I say question everything. Politely. Inquire eagerly. Be open to all possibilities. Don't box yourself in. Look for the rational first, but don't force an explanation if it doesn't entirely fit. Allow yourself to leave a question open-ended until pending future investigation.

The problem with most so-called skeptics is that they don't like frontiers. They don't seem to enjoy the journey. They want to close the book quickly.

Basically, they are party poopers.

For one thing, I think that the word "rationalist" is a better term than "skeptic". Why? because skeptics tend to be reactionary rather than take the initiative - especially when new ideas are being presented. All skeptics ever do is argue and react to others. They don't ever really bring anything new to the table - either in terms of methodology or ideas themselves.

And really...what the heck is up with people these days that they're threatening to leave because an online forum is bringing in new blood? What, they think this site is their private and personal playground or something? Newsflash: even more expansive and crazier ideas and people are going to come in here in the next few weeks, months and years - especially with the increasing media hype around 2012 - so get used to it.

Sheesh...you'd think people are made of chocolate these days...

Originally posted by ArMaP
reply to post by Chovy

 

Removed by Stanlee for insolence... Sorry ArMaP I did not realise you were learning the English language. I was attempting to be humorous.. and did not think of the fact that you just might be learning the language. All apologies.
cheers
Stan

[edit on 10-8-2009 by stanlee]

reply to post by stanlee


I think ArMaP does quite well considering he has learned English all on his own.

I realize you were trying to make a joke, but it really was not that funny in my humble opinion.

Originally posted by nethawk
And really...what the heck is up with people these days that they're threatening to leave because an online forum is bringing in new blood? What, they think this site is their private and personal playground or something? Newsflash: even more expansive and crazier ideas and people are going to come in here in the next few weeks, months and years - especially with the increasing media hype around 2012 - so get used to it.

Bloody good form mate!!! I think they believe its some sort of secret society. We are underground ufologists.. we shun they which do not belong.. like elitist RPG gamers... we own the D20... BIOTCH!!

reply to post by jkrog08


very well.. I did not realise this.. I will remove the reply at once. All apologies, and thank you for pointing this out. ArMap.. if you did by chance read this post in question.. I apologise for my ignorance. I should have thought. if you did not read it.. I apologise for the back stabbery.
cheers,
Stan



[edit on 10-8-2009 by stanlee]

Originally posted by stanlee
reply to post by jkrog08

 

very well.. I did not realise this.. I will remove the reply at once. All apologies, and thank you for pointing this out. ArMap.. if you did by chance read this post in question.. I apologise for my ignorance.

It takes a big man to admit his mistakes

...and by the way, ArMap's spelling of the word "sceptic" is correct. "Sceptic" (with a "c") is a British spelling of the word "skeptic". The word for "decomposition" is spelled "septic", as in "septic tank".

Therefore if ArMap was using British English, then it is acceptable to spell that word "sceptic".

yes I am aware of that.. it was something else.. I was going to make a reference to a sceptic tank solely for comedies sake. that was all. sceptic is also skeptic depending on where one is originally from... if Im not mistaken. but the sceptic tank joke was more along the lines of most of OUR sceptics are full of sh** sometimes. lol

either way. I love this site. I dont want to get booted over something that is seen as offensive, or make others feel unwanted, and bad... I am a prankster.. this is true, but I dont like to blatantly offend.
Believe me. I have no problem what so ever at admiting my mistakes. hell, I make enough of them. lol.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by stanlee]

In reply to converge, I agree to disagree on the amount of skepticism here.

I've seen nothing but stifling skepticism in most UFO threads. Maybe there's something that I'm not seeing that you can see.

I've seen some threads where people are downright nearly berated for daring to post videos of UFOs. It's not a very welcoming forum.

I'm already familiar with some of the 2012 related stuff to where I likely will never repost anything. I prefer to dig deep to find what I'm interested in.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Janitor From Mars]

reply to post by Janitor From Mars
Hiya JFM,
You say it's not a very welcoming forum...you might have a point. It's the sort of board where a couple of good posts and maybe a couple of stars help. I felt the same way when I joined. A bit of lurking really helps so you can spot who the good guys are.

In terms of skeptics (I'm fairly skeptical) read a few posts and don't judge all to be the same. I won't name names...some are excellent members and one or two are arrogant and unpleasant to any believers on a lot of threads.

Anyway, keep posting and focus on the threads you enjoy. I've starred your post...not all skeptics are ***holes and neither are the believers

This is not a comprehensive reply. As that will come later.

However know this.

We must be neither hot nor cold.

Originally posted by Janitor From Mars
I've seen nothing but stifling skepticism in most UFO threads. Maybe there's something that I'm not seeing that you can see.

I think that's the point he's trying to make, actually.

The people who jump in and say "thats obviously a bird" (if it was "obviously" a bird, everyone would see it, right?) without bothering to explain why they think so, without showing they've actually looked and can demonstrate what they are seeing, are not particularly helpful. Especially when it looks nothing like a bird Or, dismissing something outright just because of a feeling that "it can't be" or "it doesn't make sense" - which doesn't prove that "it isn't."

Likewise, the people who believe everything is real without looking for evidence that it might not be, are just as unhelpful.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of things we are likely to see will not be real. People make mistakes, and it seems even more people like to fake things. But all of us need to keep a critical eye if we want to dig out the truth from the trash. Because there is so much trash, it can be tempting for some people to attempt to throw it out as quickly as possible. This is understandable, but we need to make sure we don't throw out that piece of gold with all that garbage.

A proper balance is required.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Clickfoot]