5 Freedoms You'll Lose In Health Care Reform

Has ANYONE read HR 3200?

I am not in favor of it, but at least I know why.

reply to post by argentus


have you?? how long did it take???
sorry, they lost me halfway down the table of contents of the bill.....

here's a novel idea, how about the break it down into smaller portions, ya know, a little bit in this bill, a little bit in this other one over here, this would first make it a little more likely that our representives might actually take a little time out of their schedule to know what they are voting on, but also, well, there will be less parts that more find offensive that don't, that will be sliding through this bill, simply because they want this other part over here!

There's always the freedom to die, or suffer, because you have no coverage at all..

Originally posted by TheOracle
About time the US catches up with the rest of the civilized world

Excactly. You can twist and turn this all you want, but for most americans this will be a very good thing.

Originally posted by nyar74
Excactly. You can twist and turn this all you want, but for most americans this will be a very good thing.

What do you mean most Americans?
MOST Americans are happy with their current situation. I believe the figure is 80%. I'm sure the other 20% does NOT want socialized medicine like EU countries but they want to tweak our current system.
America has approximately 300 million. There is only about 20 million who are not covered by a healthcare. And some of them don't want any.

So please don't tell me what is best for us. No thanks, I don't want a inferior nationalized EU type of a healthcare system.

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by nyar74
Excactly. You can twist and turn this all you want, but for most americans this will be a very good thing.

What do you mean most Americans?

MOST Americans are happy with their current situation. I believe the figure is 80%. I'm sure the other 20% does NOT want socialized medicine like EU countries but they want to tweak our current system.
America has approximately 300 million. There is only about 20 million who are not covered by a healthcare. And some of them don't want any.

So please don't tell me what is best for us. No thanks, I don't want a inferior nationalized EU type of a healthcare system.

And to your point, neither do I.

I'm not "on board" with the current plan, and I'm not really on board with a plan that is developed through a political means. Although I believe whatever plan or "tweaking" of the current plan is going to happen should be put to a referendum.

My biggest issues are these:

1. As a small business owner I have seen the premiums I pay for my employees increase by 80-90% over the last 3 years. Their contribution, $150 a month. Mine, used to be $900, it is now $1700 and this is for family coverage which most of my employees have.

2. When we transferred from an LLC to an Incorporated Entity, it got even worse, we had to go through a completely different process from the exact same Insurance company. The old forms were no where as detailed nor discriminatory in their questions.

Could we change to a more "competitive" company? Well we have been investigating that for about 3 months now, and so far we can't find any. One of the biggest impediments to this is how if we change plans today to another insurance plan which was less expensive, all the employees would have to switch doctors. I know, I was shocked at this as well.

I haven't been denied coverage even though I had been paying, but I know folks who have had that situation, though not in my company.

I think the current system only rewards those who can screw the client the best. And although many people who treat their bodies horrible have diseases, many who are active and eat right etc still have cancers. So we can't base a market around doctors performance or patients habits, we have to do something which allows for an insurance system that

1. Can't have bubbles
2. Is Non Profit
3. Can still be competitive


I don't have the answer. But I know we have to change something and quickly. Mix this with the medicare problem, and the baby boomers and you realize that it is also a national security issue.

I'd love to hear some of the alternatives that those who are opposed to the current gov plan have in mind.

Meanwhile, there's that whole damned issue about income taxes which I have issues with as well...

I don't think this is going to be solved by implementing one major change. I think many major changes are required. For example, the Libertarian concept of a sales tax or other form which could replace the Income Tax Process.

Alas, it almost hurts the brain to ponder the complexity involved....

reply to post by Inannamute

There's always the freedom to die, or suffer, because you have no coverage at all..

This is true, and it sucks for those that want health coverage. However they have no right to force peole to get health coverage if they don't want it. This country is quickly becoming a facist regime where they are attempting to make every single decision for us to the point of mandating what we can and can't do to our own bodies.

If they want to tweak the health care system that's fine, but it must voluntary, not mandatory. And they can't have a system that says once people have government coverage they can never change back.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
I'm not "on board" with the current plan, and I'm not really on board with a plan that is developed through a political means. Although I believe whatever plan or "tweaking" of the current plan is going to happen should be put to a referendum.

My biggest issues are these:

You are missing the point.
Healthcare is complex which is why we don't need the government involved which would make it 100% more complex and eventually turn it to trash. Just look how good the government runs welfare, medicaid, medicare, VA Hospitals and the USPS.

Another reason why healthcare is currently complex is because of government involvment. It all started back in the 70's I think when the government backed a program called HMO and mandated this to businesses in the form of the HMO Act. Before government involvement healthcare was affordable for everyone.

wikipedia

History of HMO's

Another point: Perhaps if the government reduced greatly all the taxes & regulation on business and us civilians, people could actually afford to purchase some private healthcare.

Honestly, have you actually read the current Obama healthcare plan? You cannot tell me that is a good plan.

I think there are a few more freedoms being lost here.

Freedom to choose your own treatment plan, including alternative health care protocols, herbs, or off label pharmaceutical drug use. Sorry your alt-med. practitioners will have no choice but to follow 'approved' AMA and FDA drugs and protocols. ie it's the guaranteed profits for all eternity plan, for big pharma. This was already disappearing due to HMOs, and collusion between the AMA, FDA and the drug companies. However if you had a good insurance plan you could work with alternative doctors and integrative medicine types. This will be lost to us forever.

The freedom to not be targeted as worthy of death via triage or health care rationing. This already occurs in some HMOs (e.g. like the big one in CA that might start with a K.) The plan will encourage the elderly to consider suicide rather than burden the plan with excessive costs. I am comforted knowing that the government will wisely choose who is worthy of life. Of course any congressman or woman will be, since they will have a different plan.

The freedom to not take vaccines that are filled with dna from aborted fetuses or dangerous substances like squalene, mercury, live viruses, monkey dna, or that have been proven to kill and maim more people than they help. Apparently there will be a vaccine enforcement unit that will be empowered to go door to door to make sure the herd is culled. Vaccines are immensely profitable to the drug companies that manufacture them.

Originally posted by Kevin_X2
1. Freedom to choose what's in your plan
...
2. Freedom to be rewarded for healthy living, or pay your real costs
...
3. Freedom to choose high-deductible coverage
...
4. Freedom to keep your existing plan
...
5. Freedom to choose your doctors
...

1. With no medical coverage, I have no plan, therefore I have no freedom to choose what is in "my" plan.
...
2. Without medical coverage and living a life of visiting hospitals only during life threatening, emergency situations, I am not healthy and cannot afford to pay my medical bills.
...
3. Without money I have no freedom to choose high-deductable coverage. Why would you want a high-deductable, like to throw money around?
...
4. I have no existing plan. Just like you have no plan for people like me, who are not rich conservative Republicans.
...
5. I have no doctor nor any choice.

I guess you plan only accounts for people like you.

There really are two Americas, and you're on the side that sucks.

Having lived in a country with socialized medicine (at least, as far as those in the US like to label it) and having lived both without insurance, and then paying for insurance that I really can't afford, even though I'm extremely healthy and suffer from no more than the average cough and cold, I have to say that from *personal experience*, not fear, not hype, not exaggeration, to have health care that is both efficient and available, regardless of how much cash you have in your pocket today, is the best situation for all concerned.

As much as all of you like to comment and make doom and gloom predictions, and as much as there are huge issues with any healthcare reform in the US, the simple fact is that every country in the world that has some form of government/tax supported healthcare system has a healthier population, universally covered, at a lower cost and with better care than here in the US.

The system as it stands works for nobody besides insurance companies. It doesn't even work for those of you that think it does - you're paying twice as much as anyone in one of those other countries, and your care is much more likely to be rationed.

How often have you heard of things like birth control being not covered under insurance? despite the fact that logically, unplanned pregnancies cost everyone far more than those little pills do?.. That's the US mentality at work... as in, the mentality that logic is bad.

Health saves a country money, in so many ways. Just because you have insurance, doesn't mean you can't get infected by people that don't, those people that can't afford not to work when they're sick, can't afford the antibiotics, etc. You still end up paying for sick days, for emergency care, for so many things in so many ways.

The National health service in the UK started not because of some kind of socialist ideal, but because of a capitalist one. Too many workers were getting sick, dying, transmitting diseases, to the point where it became more costly to NOT provide healthcare.

Here, though, as with many issues, people are confused by ideals, by fears, instead of paying attention to practicalities.

Take a deep breath, forget what you fear, or what you believe, and look at what's real.

Originally posted by BaronVonGodzilla
1. With no medical coverage, I have no plan, therefore I have no freedom to choose what is in "my" plan.
...
2. Without medical coverage and living a life of visiting hospitals only during life threatening, emergency situations, I am not healthy and cannot afford to pay my medical bills.
...
3. Without money I have no freedom to choose high-deductable coverage. Why would you want a high-deductable, like to throw money around?
...
4. I have no existing plan. Just like you have no plan for people like me, who are not rich conservative Republicans.
...
5. I have no doctor nor any choice.

I guess you plan only accounts for people like you.

There really are two Americas, and you're on the side that sucks.

Why don't you have a doctor or health insurance?

If you are really poor then you have Medicaid. There are numerous states which offer their own health insurance plans for the poor. Plus there are also some free clinics. If you broke a leg or something and went to the hospital, you would get treatment.

I'm glad you believe that I should pay for your healthcare. Should I pay for you to own a car and for you to buy a house also?

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Why don't you have a doctor or health insurance?

If you are really poor then you have Medicaid. There are numerous states which offer their own health insurance plans for the poor. Plus there are also some free clinics. If you broke a leg or something and went to the hospital, you would get treatment.

I'm glad you believe that I should pay for your healthcare. Should I pay for you to own a car and for you to buy a house also?

it's possible for a family not to have enough money to insure everyone in the family, and still not qualify for medicaid.....
and well, if they don't qualify for the medicaid, there's a good chance that they won't qualify for any free clinics, if there happens to be one around...there wasn't any when I was living in NY.
and....if you break a leg or something and went to the emergency room.....no you would not be treated!! at least I wasn't, they took a few xrays to confirm it was broke and slapped on a splint, and referred me to a specialist.....and of course sent me a rather large bill!! heck, I had to ask for a pain killer before I left, they didn't even offer me that! the specialist they referred me to tired to refuse to treat me till I came up with a few thousand for a down payment.
I am so glad you feel like I should be paying for better quality healthcare for your "pets" than I am able to receive myself!! yous all must like your "pets", since you do so danged much to ensure that there are plenty of perspective pets around for you to pick and chose from! I wonder, how many of the pets would be productive citizens if they only got the healthcare they needed, when they needed it, instead of waiting around till it became a life threatening problem worthy of emergency care?

Originally posted by dawnstar
if you break a leg or something and went to the emergency room.....no you would not be treated!! at least I wasn't, they took a few xrays to confirm it was broke and slapped on a splint, and referred me to a specialist.....and of course sent me a rather large bill!! heck, I had to ask for a pain killer before I left, they didn't even offer me that!

Ok, so you just proved my point.
You went to the hospital and recieved treatment and pain killers. What more do you want? That is how you treat a broken bone. Take some X-rays, put on a splint, take some pain meds and let it heal.

This entire argument would be moot if the government did only a few things. If the government would get out of the lives of citizens and businesses by greatly reducing taxes and regulations, people would have the money to purchase their own insurance. Let's stop wasting money on welfare, medicaid, medicare etc. and give all this money back to the people. With the money saved, individuals like yourself could afford insurance.

People getting affordable healthcare was really not a issue until the government stepped in with mandates like the HMO act.

wikipedia

History of HMO's

Oh, and I have no idea what you are talking about regarding pets and animals.




[edit on 7/27/2009 by WhatTheory]

reply to post by WhatTheory


no, you SET the leg, and you put a caste on it!!! the bone going from my knee to my foot was twisted something like 90 degrees, there's no way it would have healed!!!

so, in other words...well, oh, no, that single mom with needs to deliver that baby, and well, we need your money to pay for it....but, oopps that poor lady over there broke her ankle and ain't got a few thousand to lay down as a down payment, oh well, tough luck, guess she won't be walking again!!!

try again??

Originally posted by dawnstar
no, you SET the leg, and you put a caste on it!!! the bone going from my knee to my foot was twisted something like 90 degrees, there's no way it would have healed!!!

Ok, then how did you get it set and have a cast put on?

so, in other words...well, oh, no, that single mom with needs to deliver that baby, and well, we need your money to pay for it....but, oopps that poor lady over there broke her ankle and ain't got a few thousand to lay down as a down payment, oh well, tough luck, guess she won't be walking again!!!

It's obvious that you did not read my entire previous post nor the links provided because I already answered your question.

reply to post by WhatTheory

a state legislature strong armed the guy into doing the operation I think.
and ya, I am sure everyone in the country has connections some way or another to one of those!

as far as the rest of your post, hey, okay, don't want to help me out of a b ind when I find my self in one, fine, quit taking money from me, to help others out....okay?
but, they won't do that...I know...
as far as them cutting the taxes, NOT WITHOUT THEM CUTTING THE SPENDING and getting their budget small enough for them to cut the taxes....let's see how that one works out.
as far as the social service sector getting all the cuts??
well, don't think so, there's tons of cash that can be taken out all over the place, let's start with all the cash going to drug companies to help them produce that next miracle $100 pill! and well, from there we can go to all that money that is given to businesses for empty promises of jobs....and from there.....................................





[edit on 27-7-2009 by dawnstar]

Originally posted by dawnstar
a state legislature strong armed the guy into doing the operation I think.

What are you talking about? Strong armed what guy?
A state legislature jumped into your situation?

I don't know, but your story does not sound right.

quit taking money from me, to help others out....okay?

Umm....how am I taking money from you.

as far as the social service sector getting all the cuts??
well, don't think so, there's tons of cash that can be taken out all over the place

That is where all the money is going down the drain. Get rid of them along with regulation and you could afford to pay for a doctors visit.

let's start with all the cash going to drug companies to help them produce that next miracle $100 pill!

I bet you were not thinking this when you were asking for the pain pills right? Who do you think developed that? Santa Clause?

reply to post by dawnstar

have you?? how long did it take???
sorry, they lost me halfway down the table of contents of the bill.....

here's a novel idea, how about the break it down into smaller portions, ya know, a little bit in this bill, a little bit in this other one over here, this would first make it a little more likely that our representives might actually take a little time out of their schedule to know what they are voting on, but also, well, there will be less parts that more find offensive that don't, that will be sliding through this bill, simply because they want this other part over here!

Yes, of course I read it. It took me a couple of hours, because I was making notes -- two columns: "+" and "-". Also had to do a bit of googling for explanation of some of the phrases.

Click on my link -- it's already broken out into sections.

Thanks for the response. I can only hope that those voting on it have bothered to read any of it. Very difficult to form an opinion on it without reading it. As far as that goes, it's not easy to form an opinion on it even AFTER reading it, as I'm not well-versed in the ramifications of some of the info, but what I don't want to do is merely parrot the opinions of those who I perceive as having a similar political view; I owe it to myself to be as informed as I can, since there doesn't seem to be any political pundit with an objective view. As usual.

There is only about 20 million who are not covered by a healthcare.

Only!?!?

I have 25 years experience living in the US, there were times I could not afford insurance, there were times when I wasn't poor enough to get medicade. There were times when I could afford insurance, but the copays were high, or the insurance company refused to pay because of "pre exsisiting" conditions - or they said I didn't need the treatment. I've lived four years in the UK - healthcare has never been an issue - The British will complain about it, it isn't perfect - but it beats by a mile anything I experienced in America.

Only 20 million???!! Shameful!