The Question of Patriotism

reply to post by BaronVonGodzilla



"Your side"??? "Let US save you"????

Wow... present possessive proper nouns. Powerful stuff. Kind of like Kool Aide.

In other words... You missed the entire POINT of the OP, as well as subsequent posts on this thread.

Tell you what, if your level of reading comprehension is that lacking... YOU and YOURS can work on "saving" YOURSELVES. In other words... Keep YOUR partisan palaver to YOURSELF.

Patriots don't fall for the divide and conquer tactic that is bipartisan politics.

There Sarge... I actually DID have something to add, upon further reflection.

By the way... Know what "ARMY" stands for?
Aren't
Really
Marines
Yet.

reply to post by BaronVonGodzilla


Can you explain in detail how our new administration is saving the country? I'm not defending the Bush era, but I would like to know what information you have that explains Obama is actually "saving" us.

reply to post by SGTChas


I think I somewhat agree with your philosophy on patriotism.

Patriotism today, by all sides, is filled with much hypocrisy. It's patriotism this way! Not your way! Patriotism isn't the love of one's physical home. It's the love of the ideal's in which we live by. It's the ideal's of freedom which we take for granted. Simply saying it's the love of my country isn't enough, as countries come and go and always will. This is partly why our freedoms come from God and not the men and women we elected.

Just because someone is performing a duty to the state does not make him patriotic. If we told our soldiers in Iraq that they aren't really fighting for freedom, but instead for big corporations and banks, how many would actually leave? How many already actually know this? When's the last time anything was truly done in the same of freedom? WW2? Maybe?

Please don't get me wrong, I am not attempting to put our brave soldiers down. But even if they are truly patriotic then it has now become blinding. Blinding in such a way that patriotism has them serving a cause which isn't patriotic at all, so what do you call that? Patriotism to me would be instead questioning. I find the Iraq War illegal to Constitutional standards (which it is), so would it be patriotic for me to dodge a draft? Or would I be more patriotic to simply nod to the state and march off to war, because the government tells me my belief on the wars legality is wrong?

So you see even the people in the 60's were patriotic when they lifted there signs and burned their flags. Their actions were mostly all kept within what we call our Constitution and Bill of Rights, and here's where the hypocrisy comes in. Most of the so called right wing patriots hated them for it! Why? Because of an idea? The same happens still, and in vice versa everyday now. Patriotism has become hating the other side instead of understanding and debate. This is due to a media working with an agenda to keep American's separated, but it is leading most who claim to be patriotic striaght into hypocrisy, and hypocrisy isn't patriotic at all.

In the end patriotism does not come from duty or loyalty. Patriotism is a product of wisdom and freedom. Patriotism comes from learning the truths of your freedoms and respecting the same for others. Patriotism in America is simply a love for freedom. A love, respect, and understanding for our Constitution and Bill of Rights. That's whats is fading in America. For if true patriotism still ran rampant in America today, then this government would have been replaced years ago.

[edit on 18-7-2009 by Xtinguish]

I am sorry my link didn't work on my comment page 1. It worked earlier now it is gone hmmph. found a new one
re: Canada's shame

archives.cbc.ca...

God
Country
Honor

In that order are the words I live by.

Firstly, I thank the OP Sarg for this thread and I hope I am not overwhelming it with Canadian propoganda, if so, I am sorry. and I wish you would comment on my postings

If you want a recent example of unpatriotic...

see this: Pictures that should shame us all reveal the shabby way Britain treats its fallen heroes

www.dailymail.co.uk...

wow,

makes me more proud to be a Canadian.

More info on the Highway of Heros: www.youtube.com...

U.S. Media Tribute to Highway of Heroes:
www.youtube.com...

Sorry for the edit agaaaain but as I posted on the thread about the Illinois cemetary plots being re-used

"Maybe the way we treat our dead is a good sign of how we treat our living.

People that are alive get tossed aside like these poor souls daily, and some people are too arrogant or ignorant to care. "

The Greater Toronto area has 5.5 million people...you see traffic and people at standstill when OUR soldiers come home. For those that do not know Bay Street, it is our stock exchange/busiest street in the city.

Small town attitude, BIG town Patriotism. www.youtube.com...

Hope you enjoyed the vids.

bonus: The 11th Hour of the 11th Day of the 11th Monthwww.youtube.com...

a negative spin: www.youtube.com...

They obviously did NOT KNOW that 30,000 Canadians ENLISTED for the Vietnam War, which is MORE than the entire population of American draft dodgers combined.

omg these ones are sooo cute LOL (for Canadian lovers everwhere)

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
3 Golds in Bejing, Korean Canadian:
www.youtube.com...

Yeah, hmmm although most of my children are American, if there were a contest, I'd wanna be Canada's most patriotic if I could...So glad to be home.




[edit on 19-7-2009 by suzque66]

reply to post by suzque66


Good post... I hope Canadian pride and patriotism will keep Canadian armed forces home when they are called on to help 'police' America after martial law is declared soon. It is also my hope that your patriotism will cause you to fight the uniting of America, Canada and Mexico into a regional nation state. May God bless your Resistance Movement.

reply to post by SGTChas

Good post... I hope Canadian pride and patriotism will keep Canadian armed forces home when they are called on to help 'police' America after martial law is declared soon. It is also my hope that your patriotism will cause you to fight the uniting of America, Canada and Mexico into a regional nation state. May God bless your Resistance Movement.

Yes Sarge . Consider me sooo there in that fight. We want our independence and sovreignty as much as you all do. Me, you and some cigars and some poutine after we win haha.

Bless you right back.

and you will love these:

www.youtube.com...
and Rick's sleepover with our Prime Minsiter lol
www.youtube.com...
all you need to know about Canada:www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...



[edit on 20-7-2009 by suzque66]

Canada certainly treats it's returning vets with respect. Good for you.

Do not let the PC police change your feelings and attitudes, as they have done in the UK, and to a lesser extent, the US.

reply to post by jsobecky


Thank you jsobecky , I would gladly push any Canadian agenda over any other country's.

www.youtube.com...

First Nations / Native Indian Memorial Celebrations: www.youtube.com...

Canadian Vietnam Memorial: www.youtube.com...

Vietnamese Canadians: www.youtube.com...

What Obama should know about Canada: www.youtube.com...

Swan Parade: www.youtube.com...
*comedy bonus: www.youtube.com...

and I challenge anyone on this tread to show me great parades.



[edit on 20-7-2009 by suzque66]

reply to post by suzque66


If I could get old 8mm transfered to a digital format, I would; a full blow US Cavalry parade of the 11 ACR & 3/8th Cavalry back from the Foulda Gap. Tanks, APC's with horse Cavalry in period uniforms... Ah, the smell of diesel and cordite in the morning… the smell of the US Cavalry on the march.

If the Cavalry isn't on parade it isn't a parade. Death rides a black 11 ACR horse...

reply to post by suzque66


By the way, some cigars sounds good, but what is 'poutine'? How about Rye? It the soldiers drink of victory - or for the last round before the last ride... Heck, after we win how about some good old corn wiskey? Pretty tasty after a hard spit of fight'n!

Honor and Courage Canadian, Honor and Courage.

[edit on 7/20/2009 by SGTChas]

Originally posted by SGTChas
reply to post by suzque66

 

If the Cavalry isn't on parade it isn't a parade. Death rides a black 11 ACR horse...

So true..Not to many people get to live the dream..

sarge I think so many people just refuse to see it happening cuz they just dont want it to happen,and think it couldnt..As a vauge student of history,laws all set up in administrations to use abuse at a later date..So infact it doesnt draw fire to just one person..What laws do we have inplace as we speek?

reply to post by SGTChas


After battle, anything with the hint of alcohol tastes good!

And Sarge, did you HAVE to go and get CBianchi stirred up? You know how those Marines are! And have mercy on me - my father-in-law was a Marine - correction - once a Marine, always a Marine.

They're all good boys - almost likeable! But touchy about that "Marine" thing. I about gave up bothering them. They just keep coming, and there ain't no quit in them.

This Patriotism thing. It's not so much about definitions and ideals. It's more deep than that.

It's not right between the ears, it's right between the lungs.

Heart.

An idealistic condition backed by belief, conviction, and action.

This requires one to empty himself at the moment it requires action. Can't have any baggage. Can't have any regrets. No second thoughts. Can't have anything you fear or fear to lose.

Not even your life.

A truly free man is a man who is empty of that which he fears to lose. Thus he may throw himself into the task of the moment without fear, and thus without hesitation.

Empty. Not soulless - empty. Empty, it's all business.

I recollect even Jesus teaching a similar thing. A rich man wanted the promise, and was told to sell everything he had, and to follow.

He went away sad, as the young man had a lot. Couldn't part with it.

Empty, you can devote yourself to the task. That's duty. Patriotism is like a stained glass window, and duty is only one fragment. Other fragments include devotion, selflessness, opportunity, dignity, honor, and a hundred other pieces.

This "me" generation - this "now" generation - this "selfish" generation - this "soft" generation - I fear that very soon, they're about to get an entirely new education.

Those that survive will more fully understand Patriotism.

Nothing is free.

Patriotism is not free. It has a cost. A price to be paid.

That price will be paid up front, as you go, or at the end. But it will be paid - and paid in full.

Anything less - just words.

In the dark, alone, when no one can see, and it's only you, you'll know if you've bought in, or just play the words.

Too many profess patriotism, but too many consider themselves "saved" too. Not that I have any guarantees, but there's a whole passel of folks I wouldn't want to share eternity with.

Nor a fight when true patriotism is required.

reply to post by SGTChas

By the way, some cigars sounds good, but what is 'poutine'? How about Rye? It the soldiers drink of victory - or for the last round before the last ride... Heck, after we win how about some good old corn wiskey? Pretty tasty after a hard spit of fight'n!

lol, well I don't drink liquor....but poutine is a gravy and cheese goo ...Quebec style lol. I will take a beer though

and dooper would you say patriotism is a form of attempting to keep a certain standard of living which also includes the political attributes (democracy)?

[edit on 20-7-2009 by suzque66]

reply to post by suzque66


I think it's more akin to holding common values above any personal interests.

These common values are the very foundation of our lives and thus mutual benefit.

Values more important than life.

reply to post by dooper


Yes, values.

But I see those changing or have changed drastically. When I look around here there are a lot of foreigners (Asian, African, Arab) who often walk with elderly parent (s) on summer nights. We are talking the whole family too. From a 3 year old to up to (seems like) 108 years old lol.

Ya don't see too many Canadians doing that. Their parents are perhaps shoved off into a home of some sort. I am assuming these ancient people I see are in good health. Maybe it is because of the extended family being so close knit. sigh

reply to post by suzque66


The values I'm talking about are timeless and cut across cultures, nationalities, race, and millennia.

Patriotism is about holding firm to those timeless, universal values. Each culture may have it's own specific rules to maintain those values, but the values basically remain the same.

Remember? Life, liberty, property?

It is those in power that ever try to gain more for personal reasons that can only be accomplished through denying others life, liberty, or property.

The erosion takes place over decades - sometimes centuries - but for every culture - there's a reset.

An enema of sorts.

And Patriotism again becomes the guiding principle to restore these values.

And it costs a lot of blood in payment.

A lot of blood.

That's what makes those values so priceless, why we should guard them, hold them dear.

Because they can only be maintained at a very high cost.

reply to post by dooper


Yes, perhaps you are right.

But, once the little things (values that seemed important before) start to disappear or decay...that is when a pride from one's community/nation starts to decrease. I suspect out of frustration.

It begins when we stopped having neighborhood BBQ's because too many were moving in that were strangers or wanted to remain strangers to the hood as a whole. Eventually it turns out to be like in the movie Gran Torino and everyone is in their own little world. Newcomers also arrive bringing their own values, customs and morals, giving a country a new perspective that only divides people in the short (possibly long) term. That change to a system only seems to the 'homelanders' as disrespectful because they could not possibly understand our history and how we have come this far.

To other ancient cultures, their countries have been through so many centuries of leaders, overthrows, wars and disruption that they may not celebrate one particular battle in such rememberance. To see a country (since ours are comparatively new on the spectrum) who's values revolve around specific incidences must seem strange to them.

But, some (like in this vid that I posted earlier) www.youtube.com... do remember once they arrive and settle (here). Maybe if more did (if reminded and educated that by being here they should respect the safety and security they have been given) then they would feel need to be patriotic to the country that took them in. There is nothing I cannot stand more than a group/or person that comes here for compassionate/humanitarian protocol reasoning and then does not respect the free-ground under their feet.

reply to post by genius/idoit


The Marine Core Motto is Simper Fidelis = Always faithful ..to God, corps and country....at least as I was taught and believe.

The Marines have never mutinied...yet. Given a president with questionable background and if indeed he does give unlawful orders he may find himself on the wrong side of a bayonette.