The Incorruptables: Another Catholic Lie?

reply to post by FlyersFan


So what of the supposedly 'sweet smells' and the wax masks are an undeniable reality.
Don't worry though: there was a fence pailing that looked like the 'Virgin Mary' over at Bondi, about 2 years ago. If you happened to miss that one; I'm sure a cheese sandwich or the like will come, in her form, and deliver us to salvation very soon.

This is how it all started:

In the reign of the younger Theodosius, Lucian,(77) a presbyter of Jerusalem, and the ecclesiastical minister of the village of Caphargamala, about twenty miles from the city, related a very singular dream, which, to remove his doubts, had been repeated on three successive Saturdays. A venerable figure stood before him, in the silence of the night, with a long beard, a white robe, and a gold rod; announced himself by the name of Gamaliel; and revealed to the astonished presbyter, that his own corpse, with the bodies of his son Abibas, his friend Nicodemus, and the illustrious Stephen, the first martyr of the Christian faith, were secretly buried in the adjacent field. He added, with some impatience, that it was time to release himself and his companions from their obscure prison; that their appearance would be salutary to a distressed world; and that they had made choice of Lucian to inform the bishop of Jerusalem of their situation and their wishes. The doubts and difficulties which still retarded this important discovery were successively removed by new visions; and the ground was opened by the bishop in the presence of an innumerable multitude; The coffins of Gamaliel, of his son, and of his friend, were found in regular order; but when the fourth coffin, which contained the remains of Stephen, was shown to the light, the earth trembled, and an odour such as that of Paradise was smelt, which instantly cured the various diseases of seventy-three of the assistants. The companions of Stephen were left in their peaceful residence of Caphargamala; but the relics of the first martyr were transported, in solemn procession, to a church constructed in their honour on Mount Sion; and the minute particles of those relics, a drop of blood, (78) or the scrapings of a bo

On this page, find Gamaliel for the passage.

As I think about it, incorruptibles are ment to be spreading the awareness, it's a vast fact, something which needs to be here. It is important. They are teachers and very important. Some might not even know it about themselves.

it's like a prophecy that needs to be fulfilled, they take part of the Grand Work of God.

Originally posted by badmedia
These kinds of "miracles" are just things manipulated into getting people accept things.

They ARE miracles and if they happen then it is lending proof to the holy life of the person, that they are a good example of a Christian. Any 'manipulation' that is taking place is God's work.

If god just wanted you to accept such things, then you would have been born accepting them.

I have no idea what that means.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
So what of the supposedly 'sweet smells'

You really need to educate yourself on what you are talking about. The 'odor of sanctity' smells like roses. It is a sign from heaven of heavenly things and of the holy. I have smelled it myself on a number of occassions during Mass and in adoration.

and the wax masks are an undeniable reality.

A thin coat of wax is sometimes brushed on the exposed parts of an incorruptable to protect it from the discoloration that comes from the candles that are burned near the body. Otherwise you'd have pale St. Bernadette looking like an African pigmy from all the smoke.

cheese sandwich

Now you are just being obnoxious.

reply to post by orangeman dave


Hey Dave,

The last time we talked about this, I tried to explain that I knew exactly where the origins of the Catholic Church lie and exactly the Vatican is BUT I also tried to point out that to the people who practice it, its pretty much basic Christianity.. The Vatican never comes into their minds or lives.

I don't care about what religion anyone is or how that specific religion is run.. Every western religion is based on the expansion of profit and or power .. that is a fact.. I know the high powers of the Catholic Church is the pinnacle of how powerful and subversive a religion can get.

What does piss me off.. a lot.. and this is because in Ireland, Catholics have been persecuted for centuries over their beliefs.. is when people try to belittle another's beliefs for whatever petty reasons.. That REALLY annoys me.. Using someone's religion as a reason to dislike them or categorize them without having a clue about them. It disgusts me so much you wouldn't believe.

I hope you can understand that you can say whatever factual information you like about the Catholic Church to me.. Or whatever religion for that reason.. but if you insult its believers or mock its traditions, you won't get a reply from me anymore.


Finally, the Church has very little power in this country.. as much as you like to think they run the place. When the reports came out, they were silenced slightly yes, as much to protect the state as the Church but the various sections of the Church have been ordered to pay large sums in compensation to each victim. Each victim can deny that compensation and take the matter further through the justice system if they like.
The "power" that the Church had in this situation amounted to them being able to slightly silence the outcome of the report.. That was it. Some power.. dont you think? I dont.

reply to post by Dermo


Dermo i dont mock anyone or their traditions or beliefs but i do like to state the facts of what the Un holy mother Church does to let everyone see what's going on.

You will never hear or see in any my posts me having a go at the worshippers as this isn't me.

You thought i was a little wacky along with others by thinking that Rome has a lot of control in a lot of places, my belief in this is being cemented when i see newspaper articles pointing out about right wing Catholic secret socieities influencing goverments i was merely pointing the fact out that i have some fact and im not paranoid.

Peace

reply to post by TeslaandLyne


Hi/
This is 'How' what started?

Relics of Saints were known from the Old Testament!
As I previously mentioned in this thread!
here

But here's more Scripture....

God "glorified those who glorify Him" (I Kings 2:30)
Also that He is "wondrous in His saints" (Psalm. 67:35)
He is the "Savior of the body" of the Church (Eph. 5:23).
"the prayer of a righteous man availeth much"(James 5:16)...Intercessors on our behalf.
The Three Youths who prayed in the fiery furnace attest: "Cause not Thy mercy to depart from us for Abraham's sake, Thy beloved, for Isaac's sake, Thy servant, and for Israel's, Thy holy one" (Dan 3:34).


.......... for the angel of the Lord appeared to Abimelich and counseled him to seek Abraham's prayers, saying: "He shall pray for thee and thou shalt live" (Gen. 20:7)
He is worshipped and glorified in His saints; He "is wondrous in His saints" (Psalm 67:35).
As He said, "I will dwell in them" (11 Cor.6:16) and, by grace and adoption, they shall be called gods (John 10:34-35).

ICXN
helen

reply to post by helen670


This is 'How' what started'.
Yes.
Since Christ died.

St Steven is the number one saint as shown in the:
The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon —
In The West
Chapter XXVIII
Final Destruction of Paganism. Introduction of the Worship of Saints and Relics among the Christians

You have things that show to you differently.

ED: The what is the Incorruptables (saints since Christ died)
in the title.



[edit on 6/20/2009 by TeslaandLyne]

reply to post by TeslaandLyne


Hi/

I don't understand because I have already answered the question!

The Old Testament first knew of the Holy Relics and their power being connected with God!
It was known in the Old Testament.
It is not a NEW presentation of the so called ''Incorruptables''..
They are known as Holy Relics.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood and still am, misunderstanding the point you are trying to make.

ICXN
helen

reply to post by orangeman dave


Ok, fair enough

There's obviously a lot more to it that i don't know as I have never looked into it and I respect your interest and opinion.

There has always been a lot of stigma surrounding the Vatican and the higher levels of the Catholic Church that the average Catholic completely ignores because to them, its just christianity.. because thats exactly what it is.. except there are some pretty serious frills when you go up through the ranks... And these are hidden from view from the average Catholic person.

I narrowed the term down.

As from this book


There are many Holy Relics but I don't call them Incorruptibles,
only the people that wind up as such, called Holy Relics in themselves.

The tomb of King David or crypt of Jesus are Holy Relics.
You are using a term I use for dead bodies as in the referenced book.

The idea that people will live forever in an incorruptible state make
you wonder if these saints have a head start.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by badmedia
These kinds of "miracles" are just things manipulated into getting people accept things.

They ARE miracles and if they happen then it is lending proof to the holy life of the person, that they are a good example of a Christian. Any 'manipulation' that is taking place is God's work.

These are just not the kind of things that are a reflection of God. Wisdom, understanding, knowledge - these are things that are signs of god.

When people rely on these types of events to make their decisions, then it's not about what they understand, it doesn't give wisdom and there is know knowledge in it. As such, it is a tool meant to get people to accept something as fact. You are treating the event as being an authority to be accepted.

If god just wanted you to accept such things, then you would have been born accepting them.

I have no idea what that means.

Well, I say this all the time, but I'll say it again. There is a difference between accepting things as true, and understanding what is true. Acceptance is useless, as they are still ignorant and do not understand.

The blind man can accept the sky is blue. But he does not understand what that really means. Because he is blind. Only if he is not blind will he understand what blue is, or that the sky is blue.

Anyone can accept that 1+1=2 is true. Anyone. But unless they understand how to add, then it is useless to them. The man who runs around yelling 1+1=2 is just as the blind as the man who doesn't know to say that. 1+1=2 is true, but if he does not understand then he doesn't know how to apply it to his life.

Like in psalm 82. Notice that it starts out with those who "accept" the wicked. And because they accept, they do not understand and so they walk on in darkness.

And of course, in Proverbs 8 it says - these things are plain to him that understands, and talks that god will fill their treasures with real riches if they find them earlier. Real riches more valuable than choice gold. Wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

Understanding is in itself something which is only possible due to the father being within them. AI in programs for example have no soul, the father is not within them and they only work in the same nature as this world, action and reaction. They can not understand. Easy to make the program accept.

How does one understand hot and cold? Because they have experienced both. You can't understand the difference between the 2 without experiencing both. You could accept you were a certain temperature and there were others, but you couldn't understand it.

This is also expressed in genesis, with the tree of knowledge. To know both good and evil, and to thus gain understanding of them.

So I by default reject anything which leads to acceptance rather than understanding.

Proverbs 8

1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

12I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

13The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

14Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

[edit on 20-6-2009 by badmedia]

Hi/

Here is a video on Holy Relics...




I'm not sure how to get the video here?





ICXN
helen

reply to post by helen670


'Incorruptables' should be imaculately preserved corpses, not common mummies. Forensically examined, these corpses have nothing more to offer than many others that have been preserved by other natural means.
If we look at the church's definition of Incorruptability, then, the famous Peat Bog Man and his similar contempories should perhaps also be considered as saints? I didn't think so!
At any rate, if these saints are so immaculately preserved; why the need for the wax masks? And why do they show the ordinary signs of decomposition- such as 'blackening'???
Me thinks it is all BS; and until there is any logical fact to prove that this is not so- so it will be!!!
Heres a passage just to reiterate......

At her third and final exhumation in 1925, it was noted that the "blackish tinge to the face and the sunken eyes and nose would make an unpleasant impression on the public," and so the decision was made to display the corpse with a wax mask. That's right, the photos you see on the Internet of St. Bernadette's beautiful, incorrupt corpse are of a wax mask placed on an obviously mummified body. The descriptions of her condition openly violate all the requirements of incorruptibility, and yet St. Bernadette is the most often cited example of miraculous incorruptibility. When you think about it, if a saint dies and God decides that this body should be incorruptible, you'd think it should remain absolutely perfect, like Sleeping Beauty. It shouldn't be only slightly less decomposed than the average body, and certainly shouldn't be a common mummy.

Saint Bernadette........Really

I find Incorruptabilty to be true. But I think only certain Mystics that were with int he Catholic Church (not revelaing that they were mystics) did enter into this bodily phase upon death. Its very possible, of course the big Ego's at the catholic church want to use that as proof that they are right.

But secretly, the incorruptables themselves knew tat they were wrong but simply decide to let it go. Trust me, when you reach a certain spiritual stage, you find it no longer necessary to crush the intellectual boxes and dogma that people have put themselves in and are willing to die for. So you just let things be.

Still don't believe? Look up cultivation of the Rainbow Body, basically its incorruptability, or better yet the whole body disappearing leaving behind just hair and finger/toe nails, with days of passing. Mostly happens in the eastern mystic circles within buddhism/dzogchen/advaita/etc

reply to post by dominicus


I would find that explanation to be a bit more believable. But at the same time I seriously do not see any "divine" reason or purpose behind it. As Jesus says, what is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the spirit is spirit. Not much reason to preserve the flesh, as the spirit is long gone and the spirit is what is important.

What would be the purpose or reason to preserve the flesh in such a way?

reply to post by dominicus


Hi Dom....

Here are some articles you may find interesting.......Images of the Virgin? Mary appearing in a cheese sandwich, and also a fence pailing in Bondi- V.Mary again!

No, not a lie.

I myself have seen an incorruptable. It was not a catholic however. It was a buddhist monk in mainland china. He died during meditation ages ago and his body did not corrupt. He sits there in meditation to this day.

He looks desicated but otherwise you might expect him to rise from his meditation any moment.

They say he simply left his body. I would not know, but I like to think he did.

reply to post by Cyberbian


Hi Cyb....,
the concept of 'Incorruptabilty of the deceased' is a Roman Catholic Church concept/fabrication.
Yes, there have obviously been corpses discovered which would fit into this criteria: however, they are not yet cononized, so are therefore not regarded as saints.
This is the reason for my comment on the 'Peat Bog Man' and his contempories.
This church likes to economize on fabrications and distortions of its own policies to increase the size of the un-thinking flock.....this would be an answer also to the churches despicable practice of sending missionaries to remote and developing nations, with the aim of converting and evangelising the uneducated, and vulnerable.
Whatever can be a desirable asset to the church overtime, will oftenly be encompassed within its morphing, dogmatic structure.
Who knows; if made popular enough and considered a good draw-card, the church eventually may canonize the Buddhist sage you have mentioned earlier- and make him a saint.
Then the church will have the followers of that particular Buddhist, exactly where the church wants them!

reply to post by KRISKALI777


I appreciate what you are saying, the history of the Catholic Church and the Jesuits is a revealing lesson in manipulation which has via dillution erased the majority of Christian beliefs from the planet.

However my point was really more along the lines that there may actually be something real and genuine about some truly spiritual individuals bodys not corrupting.

What propagandists do with that information after the fact, is of no interest to me.

Also, my point is that no, it is not a Catholic invention. It is an ancient and recurrent theme. You yourself buy into the propaganda to some degree when you see it as only a Catholic event.

People, like the Catholic Higherarchy are not usually very creative people, they are good at usurping and twisting what is already there to their own ends. These sorts dislike change and the different, and are unlikely to support anything as revolutionary as Christ was in his own time. They are serial formalists and bureaucrats.