Airbus Air France AF447: The victims have no burns nor water in lungs

What I want to know is why they don't make the whole plane out of the same stuff they make the black boxes out of - damn, those things always survive.

Anyway, on a more serious note, there is really no need to look for explanations of UFOs, solar flares, metiorites, or anything else.

The plane sent numerous failure messages over a period of time showing that what happened didn't happen immediately (so no UFO, Meteor, drug flights, bombs, or terrorist hijackings), which leaves the liklihood that it flew into a storm, the instruments malfunctioned, the pilots got the spped wrong & the plane was ripped apart.

Which all makes me glad that I don't do flying anymore.

Originally posted by lunchmanstan

... that this was one of the first planes to incorporate cell phone texting in flight. Requiring an atenna that ran nose to tail.

Well...in olden days what you may see is an antenna that is a long, thin wire. This is the ADF sensing antenna. This is old technology.

Could it be that this type of configuration is not the best situation for an intense electrical storm?

Again, it would not be external. AND, although I have no idea how the inflight cell texting system would work, ANY antenna is sufficiently isolated to protect it from electrical and static buildup. BTW, for cell texting to work when overwater, more than 200 miles from land, would require a satellite link.

How was this setup wired into the planes controll system?

It wouldn't be.

I hope would like to think that the black boxes design has improved so much over the years that unless totaly destroyed yhe must be able to be found

OH, they are quite sophisticated. The FDR is now solid state (SSFDR) and records nearly 500 data points. Modern CVRs are also solid state, instead of magnetic tape. Of course, airline pilots (and our Unions) don't want CVR recordings to be used against them....that's why they still only record about the final 30 minutes. AND can be erased, by a pilot....ON THE GROUND, with the Parking Brake set. Of course, in an accident (or incident) when power is lost to the recorders, the information is saved.

AF447's Recorders, as all, have a SONAR device with an approximate 30-day battery life. Locating in very deep water will be difficult, but not impossible.

reply to post by Power_Semi


AH.....Power!

The industry needs your business

Statistically the chance of being in a fatal airliner accident is something like .000001%

(But don't hold me to that -- I don't do statistics).

reply to post by habu71

Yes, a blessing at that. A relative who served in Special Ops was dropped out of a plane at 40,000 feet during a mission and had to wear special gear including air tanks similar to scuba gear. Steep descents from cruising altitude also can cause aortic separation, that is one reason fighter and test pilots are heavily tested for cardiovascular risks.

reply to post by komp_uk


good story but um if it fell apart in air it would be explainable though

I found an interesting NATO document that documents how injuries to aircrash victims are used to determine clues about the actual crash in terms of impacts speed, type of impact etc. and posted it in the following thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It might be useful to read this, then get more info on the injuries to the victims ... the pieces are slowly starting to come together.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Power_Semi

 

AH.....Power!

The industry needs your business

Statistically the chance of being in a fatal airliner accident is something like .000001%

(But don't hold me to that -- I don't do statistics).

Ah yes, but I find that by not flying at all the chances of me being involved in a fatal airliner accident drop to 0.00000000%, which is statistically a lot better than 0.000001%

In fact it's infinitely better

reply to post by Silk


right but how many bodies have been recovered?? a criminal mind would leave a few bodies behind just so the criminal would not be suspect ....ever tought that?

No water in lungs!!? If this plane had fallen apart at altitude the passengers on boards lungs would have popped like a balloon making them incapable of retaining water. I think a lot of people here on ATS are letting their imaginations run away with them.

Originally posted by weedwhacker

Statistically the chance of being in a fatal airliner accident is something like .000001%

(But don't hold me to that -- I don't do statistics).

Wanna guess what the chance is statistically of getting hit by a meteorite? A very small chance, I guess. However...


Gerrit Blank survives meteorite hit


I wonder what would happen if it hit a jet?...

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


The lungs would "pop"? Really?

Could you provide anything to back up that claim?

Thanks.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

If this plane had fallen apart at altitude the passengers on boards lungs would have popped like a balloon...

No. Now your imagination is running away!

It is perfectly feasible to survive an explosive decompression at 35000 feet without 'lungs exploding'. Natural reaction is to exhale.

Here's where the impression comes from:
en.wikipedia.org...

Fallacies

Misunderstandings of "explosive decompression", are quite likely to be a fueling factor for a persistent myth that humans would explode if exposed to the non-pressure of outer space. Extravagant depictions in media such as the film Licence to Kill, where one character's head detonates after the hyperbaric chamber he is in is rapidly depressurized, have helped to fuel the myth. This is possible with the pressures experienced in diving chambers but not with the far smaller pressure changes involved in space exploration. Accidents in space exploration research and high-altitude aviation have shown that while vacuum exposure causes swelling, human skin is tough enough to withstand a drop of one atm. This assumes that the person does not attempt to hold their breath (which is likely to cause acute lung trauma),...

(I added the bold text)

Now, continuing...from same source.

The table below reflects various altitudes with the corresponding average TUC


Altitude in Flight level Time of Useful Consciousness Altitude in meters Altitude in feet
FL 150 30 min or more 4,572 m 15,000
FL 180 20 to 30 min 5,486 m 18,000
FL 220 5-10 min 6,705 m 22,000
FL 250 3 to 5 min 7,620 m 25,000
FL 280 2.5 to 3 mins 8,534 m 28,000
FL 300 1 to 3 mins 9,144 m 30,000
FL 350 30 sec to 60 sec 10,668 m 35,000
FL 400 15 to 20 sec 12,192 m 40,000
FL 430 9 to 15 sec 13,106 m 43,000
FL 500 and above 6 to 9 sec 15,240 m 50,000

These times have been established from observations over a period of years and are for an individual at rest. Any exercise will reduce the time considerably. For example, usually upon exposure to hypoxia at FL 250, an average individual has a TUC of 3 to 5 minutes. The same individual, after performing 10 deep knee bends, will have a TUC in the range of 1 to 1.5 minutes.[citation needed]

A rapid decompression can reduce the TUC by up to 50 percent caused by the forced exhalation of the lungs during decompression and the extremely rapid rate of ascent

Sorry, it came from a table at Wiki....reformatting was too time-consuming.

Gist is, at FL350 an average, healthy individual who encounters a rapid decompression may have a TUC of between 15 to 60 seconds, depending on factors. This is why pilots have a "quick donning" O2 mask. I can put one on in about two seconds. Passengers use the yellow cups, which provides enough to maintain consciousness.

In normal rapid decompression scenarios (if you can consider them to be 'normal') when there is no structural damage suspected, the pilots will begin a descent, at ratesw that can exceed 6000 feet per minute. SO, you see, in just four minutes the airplane can be down to 10000 feet, where everyone should be able to breath normally.

Originally posted by ArMaP
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

 

The lungs would "pop"? Really?

Could you provide anything to back up that claim?

Thanks.

Rapid decompression, such as what would happen if the outer hull of an aircraft at altitude was breached would cause pneumothorax or burst lungs. More commonly associated with deep sea divers but the same would, I believe, happen at extreme altitude.

I've just read my last post and realise it could be misunderstood. pneumothorax, also known as burst lung or collapsed lung, does not literally mean that the lungs burst. It got the name because the lungs deflate as if they were burst and unablle to work properly. Sorry for the misunderstanding

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

More commonly associated with deep sea divers but the same would, I believe, happen at extreme altitude.

Oh we understand, writing in haste sometimes, happens.

BTW I have my SCUBA Open Water card...not real experienced, yet. BUT I do know about lung damage IF you attempt to hold your breath!!

Those poor people likely didn't have time to react, or think....hope it was painless.......

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


OK.

So, what is the difference in pressure between a pressurised aeroplane cabin and the atmospheric pressure at the altitude the aeroplane was flying?

PS: pneumothorax is a medical condition in which there is air (or any other gas) in the pleural cavity, either coming from a punctured lung or from something else, like a chest wound or some of several diseases.

reply to post by weedwhacker

Which ever way you look at it the deflated lungs of those poor people on board wouldn't have been capable of holding water. . .would they? And if they did have water in them surely this would give a strong hint that they survived the initial crash and drowned in the water?
I share your views, I too hope they didn't suffer.

I went looking for some more information and found that the case of Aloha Airlines Flight 243 was the closest (with survivors) that I could find.

Although at a lower altitude, everybody on board survived, the only death was a flight attendant that was sucked by the initial decompression.

So, I don't think that people would die because of the decompression but because of the lack of oxygen.

If that was the case, although not instantaneous, I suppose it's fast enough to be considered a "good way to die", and it's painless (and I know that, I was once close to die because of lack of oxygen, because of an asthma attack).

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


Yes, Mint. Not to be seeming morbid, but a sudden exposure at 35,000 feet means, of course, a loss of consciousness in under a minute. THEN, is the fall. A Human body will reach a terminal velocity of about 170-200 MPH in free fall. The victims were dead by the time they hit the water. Even IF there is no lung damage from decompression effects, a person has to be alive in order to breathe.

So basically we can now rule out the posiblity that the passengers spontanteously combusted into flames, fell six miles into the Atlantic and then tragically drowned ......

Looks like they were dead long before they hit the water - as I'd have thought everyone has been assuming all along?