Abortion Doctor George Tiller Reportedly Killed at Church

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
There are other methods that don't require the puncture of the skull for late term abortion, such as PBA.

I did not say that there were not other methods but this particular doctor did use the skull puncture technique. Any method is unacceptable however.

It can't live on it's own until it's intact, done with the birthing process, disconnected from the mother.

Well, that is quite convienent for you now isn't it. How is the baby going to live on it's own if you abort it.

Woman have premature births all the time and the babies still live. However, using your flawed logic, instead of the doctors and nurses taking care of the premature babies, they should just kill them after the woman has a premature baby. Sad, just sad.

I'm still waiting to hear how many kids you've adopted. Or how much time, energy, or money you devote to helping young or single moms who can't take care of the kids themselves.

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic
I'm still waiting to hear how many kids you've adopted. Or how much time, energy, or money you devote to helping young or single moms who can't take care of the kids themselves.

How is this relevant as to whether killing an unborn baby is right or wrong?
Perhaps these young single moms should have kept their legs closed and thought things through before getting pregnant. Also, this is what family is for. The family should help these young single moms raise their kids. If they don't have any family, then they are going to have to tough it out and take responsibility for their actions. Also, we pay a lot of taxes and I'm sure these young single moms get their portion of my money from the government to raise their kids.

reply to post by CuriousSkeptic


Your suggestion is a red herring, because most of the kids put up for adoption are not unwanted by their real parents nor were they ever endanger of being aborted. Many are being stolen to fill the demand of those who want children ,but can't have them. Before abortion, fewer children were kidnapped by the state.



[edit on 31-5-2009 by eradown]

reply to post by uncommon-sense



Too bad those statistics are for only a few states, and not the whole of the United States.



I find it incredibly sad that Dr. Tiller was murdered, regardless of if it was by someone of the Pro-Life community. I personally do not agree with abortions past the first Trimester (unless in cases of a threat to the health of the mother or the unborn child), but I still do not think that my opinion would be any more important than of the person that would be needing the abortion.

If he truly was murdered by someone of the Pro-Life community, then that makes me incredibly sad. I know of several people that are Pro-Life, and while they do not agree with what Dr. Tiller (or any doctor like him) did, they would still not go out and kill a doctor or bomb a clinic. I think that there really is a rational side to the Pro-Life community that does not agree with killing people or bombing clinics, they just receive a really bad image from a few radicals.

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic
I'm still waiting to hear how many kids you've adopted. Or how much time, energy, or money you devote to helping young or single moms who can't take care of the kids themselves.

How is this relevant as to whether killing an unborn baby is right or wrong?
Perhaps these young single moms should have kept their legs closed and thought things through before getting pregnant. Also, this is what family is for. The family should help these young single moms raise their kids. If they don't have any family, then they are going to have to tough it out and take responsibility for their actions. Also, we pay a lot of taxes and I'm sure these young single moms get their portion of my money from the government to raise their kids.

Alright then. Enjoy your simple perfect world.

reply to post by CuriousSkeptic


You know, I feel the same way about the uneducated, welfare recipients, the crippled, those with an IQ of less than 125, those who live in houses worth less than $250,000, those who drive a two-year-old car, and those who become unemployed.

No, I'm not going to adopt any of these.

So since they're not wanted, by your logic, let's just kill them.

Be so much easier on everyone.

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic

Alright then. Enjoy your simple perfect world.

Guess you don't have a logical response since all you can do is put together a one liner.
How is that comment even relevant? I don't know what world you live in but it sure isn't reality.

Using your flawed logic, are you saying that these young single moms should not take responsibility for their actions and not ask for their family to help them. Are you saying they are not offered government assistance?

So please enlighten us with your vast wisdom and tell us of this 'perfect world' of yours.

I gave you some options for your specific scenario yet you offer none. Oh wait, your option is to kill the babies. Got it.

[edit on 5/31/2009 by WhatTheory]

I see both sides, though at the end of the day, a woman has the right to do what she will with her own body/offspring. Even though adoption is a better alternative, for some women to give birth would just ruin her life, hence ruining the life of her child. Sometimes its better just to let a soul move on to another body before it gets too attached. better to save it the despair.
I saw a documentary about these pro-life advocates, ... and even though they will live the rest of their lives in prison, they still beleive they did the right thing, .... " jesus told me to do it" ..... in my opinion these people are borderline retarded. Mixing religious beleif's with small minded imbeciles is never a good thing. " jesus would of wanted me to do it" .... " well the bible says " ......... omg, the very existence of these people is a testament to abortion itself !

The government will use this as further excuse to label all non-liberals as terrorists. They will use this to help go after our guns. They will use cases like this to further their agenda.

By the time a baby reaches 12 weeks gestation, all bones are calcified and all systems are formed. All the baby needs is time to develop. By the time the baby has reached 8 weeks gestation, the baby feels pain just like every other human. When the babies are dismembered or burned alive with saline until death, the babies experience the same torment you or I would feel if the same thing happened to us.

reply to post by Jessicamsa


But their nervous systems and muscular control isn't even fully developed until weeks after birth. That's why they still have tons of involuntary movement. Same goes for the skull, their bones aren't fused until awhile after birth.

I really am amused by some of the responses here. Let me start off by saying...I am Pro Choice.

Now with that being said, I'm shocked that it took so long for someone to shot and kill Dr. Tiller. I mean really... the guy would come to work wearing a bullet proof vest! The article says he performed "late term abortions" and to be honest that term is used pretty loosely in my opinion. Dr. Tiller if paid enough would probably deliver your baby, and if instructed to do so, would wrap the umbilical cord around it's neck, kill it, and write it up as a late term abortion. Dr. Tiller took things to an extreme. He is everything that is wrong with the system and the way abortions are performed in this country. Having lived in Wichita for a little over a decade I am very familiar with the work of Dr. Tiller as well as the summertime protest that happened each year outside of his gated facility. I personally know of one girl whom he performed 16 abortions on within a 5 year period of time. Now I am no expert... but surely that can not be healthy. Before you dismiss what I am saying as "rumor", I know it to be fact cause she was someone I would have ot help take care of after she had her little "procedure"

Dr. Tiller was completely unethical in his business, and thrived on the controversy he created within the community. He LOVED the protest, cause it was just free advertisment for his clinic. I'm just shocked it took this long before someone actually made good on the threat to take his life.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by heliosprime

 

So in order to fight evil, you commit an evil act? Are you even listening to yourself?

So it is OK to let evil continue to exist and murder thousands rather than kill the one evil in order to save thousands? Is this what you are trying to justify?

Originally posted by secretagent woooman
I invested some time when I was younger to check out this movement to see what it was about and the common denominator with every single person I have met in the pro-life movement is mental illness, they all appear to be paranoid and suffer from delusions of grandeur regarding aural hallucinations from "god."

I absolutely agree. What we see so far is basically a whole lot of mental illness, sometimes God telling them to "save the babies", or they can SEE the babies in the womb squirming and hence they take it upon themselves to "right" things - not by convincing mothers in the 21st week of pregnancy NOT to abort, but rather, by SHOOTING the abortion doctor. Firstly, where's the logic in that? I guess it does solve things... NOT. There are bound to be other doctors IN THE WORLD who can do the same thing.

Also, I wanted to post this one very simple sentence.

BABY KILLERS ARE NOT AS HORRIFIC AS HUMAN KILLERS.

And that says it all. Dr. Tiller might have been a "killer of babies" according to all those right-wing fundamentalists who live under rocks and are stuck in the 10th century, but compared to those people who GO TO A CHURCH and SHOOT HIM IN A PLACE OF SUPPOSED WORSHIP? They call themselves Christians who "are serving God's message". I laugh. Compared to these people, Dr. Tiller is A SAINT.

And I'm pro-choice, all the way. Why let a person suffer anymore in this world than he/she has to? It's a tough place to live in... and if you have a mental illness (like these fundamentalists) or other illnesses like Down's Syndrome, etc. It's not going to be easy. If I were a good parent, Democrat or Republican, pro-choice or not, I would NEVER want that for my child.

reply to post by Jessicamsa


1) you are paranoid.

2) And even if they feel pain, boy, will they be in for a surprise when they enter this world with Down's Syndrome or "illnesses that are deviant from society". They'll be in for a whole new world and definition of pain, buddy. Take it from me.

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic
So how many kids have WhatTheory, RRConservative, and the rest of the pro-lifers in here adopted?

[edit on 31-5-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

Yet another misdirection by those who support murder. The issue is abortion is murder. Tiller was a murderer many thousands of times over. He will be judged accordingly.

Instead of asking how many pro-lifers adopted children, how many pro-choice have paid money to murder children still in the womb or just out?

How much money have you given to the pro-choice (murder) movement?

How many children that could have been adopted have you helped be murdered?

Exodus 21:22,23

22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

[edit on 31-5-2009 by heliosprime]

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic

Alright then. Enjoy your simple perfect world.

I gave you some options for your specific scenario yet you offer none. Oh wait, your option is to kill the babies. Got it.

[edit on 5/31/2009 by WhatTheory]

It's a logical argument, because if you don't adopt these babies, and I don't adopt these babies, and ALL these ATS-ers on this forum MAY NOT be adopting these babies... who does?!

Maybe a few. One, or two, or three. Or a hundred. How many babies are born each day? Hundreds?

There is clearly a discrepancy in the no. of adopting parents, as well as the TIME needed to process the legal part of adoption, during which time more babies are born. Where do they go? Orphanages. Children's shelters. Abandoned by their parents, they're left out on their own. It seems simple for you to say "Oh, she should have given up her daughter for adoption" but that doesnt mean the daughter will be adopted immediately!

There are things to consider - who's going to take care of the child before he or she is transferred to the adoption shelter. If there ISNT one, the child will have to stay with the mother until the agency finds a parents - and that might take forever and the mother STILL has to raise the child on her own anyway though she can't afford it. Or how about the child being raised around drugs? Cigarettes? Crime and poverty? In his/her biological mother's home AND in the shelter AND out in the streets after he turns 18?

God forbid he should have an illness like Down's Syndrome or epilepsy or something. That would make him fodder for street vultures looking for prey.

Listen, we all can throw out phrases like "Give him up for adoption!" and "Babies feel pain too!" but think about this IN THE LONG RUN. In the long run, a baby that feels pain temporarily (in the 3rd or 4th weeks he still can't) is nothing compared to a grown adult that feels pain every day of his life. Throwing everything to adoption agencies is even worse - incompetence exists, and life sure ain't pretty for these kids. You can talk so much because you've been raised comfortably, with shelter over your head, with parents who love you, with food on your table every day... what about OTHERS who can't get all these?

And that's why I agree with that dude's one-liner. Really, just continue living in your simple world.

P.S. Heliosprime, read this too. "Could have been adopted"... is a misconception. Go shadow an adoption agency worker or something.

[edit on 31-5-2009 by KarlG]

reply to post by MrWendal


Wow! Usually ,people who do late term abortions are more discrete. Murdering him would not stop the practice. The culture must change or the laws must change. Most of the pro choice crowd would have problems with butchers treating calves like Tiller treated babies. As much bigotry as there is towards fundamentalist Christians his murder could just be another false flag.

Originally posted by KarlG
reply to post by Jessicamsa

 

1) you are paranoid.

2) And even if they feel pain, boy, will they be in for a surprise when they enter this world with Down's Syndrome or "illnesses that are deviant from society". They'll be in for a whole new world and definition of pain, buddy. Take it from me.

So youobviously agree with the NAZI's...

Nazi eugenics were Nazi Germany's racially-based social policies that placed the improvement of the race through eugenics at the center of their concerns and targeted those humans they identified as "life unworthy of life" (German Lebensunwertes Leben), including but not limited to the criminal, degenerate, dissident, feeble-minded, homosexual, idle, insane, religious, and weak, for elimination from the chain of heredity. More than 400,000 people were sterilized against their will, while 70,000 were killed in the Action T4.[1]

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Originally posted by seagull
If it turns out that this doctor was killed by a "prolife" advocate, it raises the level of hypocrisy to new heights.

My question is this: What does this solve? Death to prevent death? All this'll do is harden opinions even more, resulting in more deaths.

But it may turn out that this murder isn't even related to his profession.

But no matter who, it is and will remain a murder. Unjustifiable by any measure.

Absolutley. I was just thinking that. If this guy was killed by a pro lifer that will be such a hugely hypocritical act. Apparently it is not ok for others to "kill" but it is ok for them?

Give me a break. If this turns out to be an action performed by a pro lifer ( I bet it will) this will be yet another huge stain on the already highly tarnished reputation of the pro-life movement.

Not all pro-lifers are bad, do not get me wrong, but there have been numerous occasions in which pro lifers have crossed the line into unacceptable behavior.

Stalking people, breaking into their homes, vandalizing it attacking them etc.... Now possibly going against their own beliefs and killing!

Such hypocracy...

I can just imagine the argument this killer will have.... " Well one life to save a bunch is ok...." Not it is not you hypocrite! If you are pro life than no life is to be taken! Period. Such hypocracy



[edit on 31-5-2009 by gimme_some_truth]

I agree too. Unbelievable hypocrisy. Talking about how babies feel pain... and how it's like killing a live human being by aborting it... HELLO. You're killing a GROWN MAN. There's not only pain, and he's not only a live human, he has family, friends and a community that MIGHT miss him.

It's so outrageously hypocritical that it's hilarious. These nutcases have no logic and are trapped in some vortex of reality they can't get out of.