The Crone: The forbidden face of the divine feminine

reply to post by TravelerintheDark

So I think the only true value of any individual is how much they are themselves as opposed to what they think they should be. To the point, why does a woman over 40 have to be "sexy" in any fashion, or attractive? And why should anyone be pressed to see them that way for any reason? What's wrong with her being a "hag"?

Traveler - you could have spared people a lot of my rambling if you'd showed up here 2 days ago :-)

... And when we do apply them to ourselves, we're often brutal and cruel, making it all the less desirable...

just wanted to repeat it - because maybe this is the truest part? how we look at and treat ourselves

[edit on 5/17/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
Traveler - you could have spared people a lot of my rambling if you'd showed up here 2 days ago :-)

Far be that from me. I know I'm not the only one to think your rambling to be among the finer ramblings to grace this establishment. Sorry, I'm not making a point here other than I just like to tell people when I think they're cool

... And when we do apply them to ourselves, we're often brutal and cruel, making it all the less desirable...

just wanted to repeat it - because maybe this is the truest part? how we look at and treat ourselves

I find it painfully true. If most of us could find a way to eliminate our doubts about ourselves we'd find we care far less how others perceive or receive us. We'd have far less to prove and less reason to engage in struggle. When we allow ourselves the freedom to be, what a fine day will have come to pass.

[edit on 17/5/09 by TravelerintheDark]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

why do you gots to go and do that, Astyanax?

Because to someone who believes in God, values come from God, and there's an end to argument.

OK - cool - I can live with that

Yes, so could Torquemada, Pol Pot, Jeffrey Dahmer and others of that ilk. It's exactly what they did.

'Value is whatever I say it is' won't wash, I'm afraid. If the answer were that easy, why should I have bothered to ask the question?

* * *

Okay, enough pussyfooting. Time to get serious.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
Why do we wonder how important the old girl monkeys are - what's the point?

I suppose it's important if you're an wise old girl monkey who is having trouble getting used to the idea that, as far as Nature is concerned, she has outlived her usefulness. However, this is a mere special case of a much more general difficulty, which arises from the fact that we are the only creatures that know we must die.

why don't we just shut up and survive - like all the other critters?

Because we know that we must die, and it terrifies us. You do realize, don't you, that that is all this thread is about - all it was ever about?

[edit on 18/5/09 by Astyanax]

reply to post by Astyanax

Because to someone who believes in God, values come from God, and there's an end to argument.

you see it as an end to the argument - which is why I was surprised to see it included - knowing that it's never really the end of the argument

Yes, so could Torquemada, Pol Pot, Jeffrey Dahmer and others of that ilk. It's exactly what they did.

'Value is whatever I say it is' won't wash, I'm afraid. If the answer were that easy, why should I have bothered to ask the question?

well, I did wonder -

which is why I asked: are there answers to these questions?

I didn't realize you were expecting me to keep thinking - my mistake

so, when you say:

We devise moralities and impose them.

OK - throwing Pol Pot (and the rest) into the mix does make the whole concept seem rather distasteful - and I realize we humans do have our rules

but that doesn't mean we aren't making this up as we go along - it's just that we make it up in ways that most of us agree to - that work for most of us - so that all seems right with the world

a lot of it is arbitrary from my point of view - things that are considered givens can change - just because we decided - on a whim

even if the whim requires a few hundred (thousand) years to make it so

Okay, enough pussyfooting. Time to get serious.

:-) cripes, MORE serious?

I suppose it's important if you're an wise old girl monkey who is having trouble getting used to the idea that, as far as Nature is concerned, she has outlived her usefulness.

but, Astyanax - what if you're a wise old girl monkey (god - I'm really going to have to try and start using that) that is not as concerned about her usefulness as she is about the idea of everybody's usefulness? Her REAL question being about more than what's right in front of her (our) nose - but more importantly, and honestly, why do we wonder about any of it?

that was the real question

just sayin'

However, this is a mere special case of a much more general difficulty, which arises from the fact that we are the only creatures that know we must die

huh - wonder if maybe that's something like what the girl monkey was thinking about all along - the BIG picture - the really big question - why?

sometimes the girl monkey wonders if anyone can hear her...maybe the sound button is broke

though, you should know - I do realize I rely on people's psychic abilities way too much - I should try using more words instead

You do realize, don't you, that that is all this thread is about - all it was ever about?

close Astyanax - but I think maybe it's more about dying alone

edit to make more sense out of something that made no sense...

[edit on 5/18/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by TravelerintheDark


thank you Traveler - that actually made me blush a little

reply to post by Astyanax


Astyanax - I said this, I know:

but that doesn't mean we aren't making this up as we go along - it's just that we make it up in ways that most of us agree to - that work for most of us - so that all seems right with the world

a lot of it is arbitrary from my point of view - things that are considered givens can change - just because we decided - on a whim

I would really like a better explanation of why this isn't so - sincerely - if you think it's not

because - I am just not getting that part - not even a whole year later

I know maybe you thought the bugs would help - but they didn't

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
it's never really the end of the argument

True. But I'm sick of that argument, so 'no God' is a frame condition for this one, as far as I'm concerned.

are there answers to these questions?

We've had that conversation before. I believe morality comes from biology; it exists to manage the conflict of interest between 'selfish' instincts and 'social' ones.

that doesn't mean we aren't making this up as we go along - it's just that we make it up in ways that most of us agree to - that work for most of us - so that all seems right with the world

You've got this backwards. It makes us up as it goes along.

arbitrary from my point of view

Yes, that proves it is imposed on you. The insight you're missing is that it's imposed on everyone else as well.

why do we wonder about any of it?

For the same reason that cocks have combs. That's what Geoffrey Miller thinks, anyway.

I think maybe it's more about dying alone

Touché. I won't spoil the thought by commenting on it.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

I don't know if there's anything left to explain. The source of values lies in us. Since we are animals, it must lie in our animal nature. I have explained how I believe they are derived from our instincts. And our instincts are shaped by evolution, something over which we have no control. We are most emphatically not making it up as we go along. We are being made up.

Our values come from our animal instincts?
If that were true, we would all value the same things and we don't.
Personality, born or made... determines the desires that give things their value..
Intellectually we value, emotionally we value, spiritually we value (those things you can't seem to put into words). Physically we value... God or no god, we value. It is our nature to appreciate as well as destroy. Just like nature, we age and the circle continues. The crone in her last days may value life more knowing it is coming to a close. She may finally decide to actually live and enjoy without being clouded by all the social judgment. In peace and in solitude.

I have a dear friend who I believe is a true Crone.
She has lead a life of giving herself to others and when it came the "change of life' boy did she change.

From very strict moral woman to someone who joined a Nudists colony and now goes on holiday with a lot of oldies catching some rays in places the sun had never seen before.

She totally revels in her new found freedom.
Sex isn't even a part of what she wants to experience.
In fact, she said she's had it with sex and now has replaced it with other more exciting things.
She has more interests and hobbies than anyone I know and I have to say she just seems in love with life.

From what I've seen, rather than it being a time of being lonely, it's a time for finding yourself and being secure in being alone if that's what you prefer.

This thread has been pretty negative to read to me.
It all gets back to sex v attractiveness v being needed v v v...
Same old stuff that we've done our whole life.

I'm looking forward to the emancipation from expectations that this phase offers. I look forward to it, thankfully I seem to have a good role model to show me how I might get the best out of it.




[edit on 19-5-2009 by Flighty]

Originally posted by seagrass
Our values come from our animal instincts? If that were true, we would all value the same things and we don't.

We have a lot of instincts. Are they all equally developed in everyone?

Personality, born or made... determines the desires that give things their value.

No, instincts determine personality. They determine behaviour*, and personality is simply the sum of behaviour.

Intellectually we value, emotionally we value, spiritually we value (those things you can't seem to put into words).

Yes, indeed. As I said earlier, it is we who create values.

The crone in her last days may value life more knowing it is coming to a close.

That would be a waste of time and a terrible pity. One should learn the value of life at an early age. And to be fair, most people do.

*Together, of course, with personal history (experience) and the exigencies of the moment.

Originally posted by Astyanax

We have a lot of instincts. Are they all equally developed in everyone?

Instincts are inherent, they are stereotypical in that we all have the same ones. Fight or flight, survival, hunt and gather. etc. Just like animal species have 'certain' instincts they are born with. No, each animal may differ in its ability to respond naturally to them, but they are born with them. Just like personality. We are born with a personality as WELL as instincts. How many babies do you see who act the same straight out of the womb? Personality determines what we pay attention to. If it was an instinct, all children would naturally pay attention to the same things out of that instinct. They don't. How can you justify the statement that all behavior is instinctual?
Children have no sum of behavior to create a personality yet, straight out of the womb. And yet they are born different. Different temperments that determine behavior. Nature and nurture play a part. Instincts are only part of nature, but can be built upon by desire, interest, experience, attention.
What determines the desire, interest, etc.. is the personality.

Yes, indeed. As I said earlier, it is we who create values.

if we create values, and it is by instinct, then animals can create values.

That would be a waste of time and a terrible pity. One should learn the value of life at an early age. And to be fair, most people do.

It is the values of youth that perpetuate that lack of peace with self. Our society tells us what is expected of youth. There are very little expectations in old age. Therefore, there is freedom.

 

*Together, of course, with personal history (experience) and the exigencies of the moment.

Originally posted by seagrass
Instincts are inherent, they are stereotypical in that we all have the same ones.

But not to the same degree. You only need eyes in your head to see that.

Instincts are by definition inherent. Just like personality.

Personality is inherent? You're a genetic determinist all of a sudden?

How many babies do you see who act the same straight out of the womb?

All of them, except the brain-damaged ones, react pretty much the same. 'Straight from the womb' means within the first hour or two of life, no more.

How can you justify the statement that all behavior is instinctual?

I have done so repeatedly in many threads on ATS, with the qualifications I added in the footnote to a previous post. It would be tedious, not to say off topic, to go into them here. Here are some links; they have to do mostly with consciousness and will, which are, however, only two pieces of a larger puzzle. Sadly, it is impossible to condense a lifetime or reading and thinking, most of it done offline, into a few links.

Still, FWIW, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]

It is the values of youth that perpetuate that lack of peace with self. Our society tells us what is expected of youth. There are very little expectations in old age. Therefore, there is freedom.

I don't live in your society. In my society the old are powerful and respected. The young have only duties. Sadly, my society has more or less fallen apart, indicating that its values are no better at preserving life, love and liberty than those of your society.

Originally posted by Astyanax

But not to the same degree. You only need eyes in your head to see that.

I believe I said so, in the mentioning of different species and different abilities to perform them.. Different desires to express them. Some are more shy some more aggressive due to personality compounding instinct.

Personality is inherent? You're a genetic determinist all of a sudden?

I am a mother, who had two different children, with two different personalities from birth onward. Yes, personality is inherent. Our ancestors knew that, and then astrology was born.

All of them, except the brain-damaged ones, react pretty much the same. 'Straight from the womb' means within the first hour or two of life, no more.

I see you haven't paid attention to children. If you decide straight out of the womb is the first hour or two of life then I can except that. Then I will add that they have different personalities straight out of the womb and continue to have throughout the rest of their lives.

I don't live in your society. In my society the old are powerful and respected. The young have only duties. Sadly, my society has more or less fallen apart, indicating that its values are no better at preserving life, love and liberty than those of your society.

I don't need your links or lifetime of reading and thinking to tell me that personality is determined by instincts, because I don't believe that. I have no idea what society you live in, but in my society the old are also powerful and respected, but not by all. I would agree that no society I am aware of has created values that serve us in all ways. And I would agree that values have led us all back and forth for centuries trying to find what works. So far, from what I have found, certain values seem to work for some, but not for others. Probably because of the personality and its desires. To hold one back with values that do not serve them can make them act out in ways that are worse than the original idea of the value as it was intended.

[edit on 21-5-2009 by seagrass]

reply to post by seagrass

All well and good, seagrass, but if all you have to back up these statements of yours is 'your experience as a mother', we shall have to regard them as nothing but personal opinion, and given the weight of scientific and philosophical evidence against them, clearly wrong - the result, no doubt, of a caring mother's earnest desire to believe that her little chaps are unique and special and wonderful and quite different from everybody else's. Heart-warming and commendable, but irrelevant.

You need to close your quotes to make your posts readable, BTW.

Edit to respond to this:

if we create values, and it is by instinct, then animals can create values.

Well, of course they do. My cats won't eat actual fish, but they will eat cat food made out of it. They value processed foods over natural ones, I'm sorry to say.

[edit on 22/5/09 by Astyanax]

Perchance I was flipping through my boyfriend's old dog-eared copy of Frank Herbert's Dune, a book that's been lying around here on the coffee table for some reason for awhile. We've both read before and are kind of re-flipping through it, I guess. I read the thing years ago and have forgotten how profound it is. Or maybe I was too young at the time to grasp its subtlties. Anyway, from the page I opened to today, a quote jumped out at me that seemed somehow quite germane to this topic:

Thus spoke St. Alia-of-the-Knife: "The Reverend Mother must combine the seductive wiles of a courtesan with the untouchable majesty of a virgin goddess, holding those attributes in tension so long as the powers of her youth endure. For when youth and beauty have gone, she will find that the place-between, once occupied by tension, has become a wellspring of cunning and resourcefulness.
-Frank Herbert, Dune, quote-within-a-quote, page 22.

Oh yeah.

reply to post by Goatflesh Gnosis


I remember reading "Dune" in my youth. Thanks for the reminder. I do believe Herbert summed it up nicely.