Why God is probable, but religion is not

Ok, first of all, lets start with reason. Yes, reason. I'm not talking about reason in the sense of purpose. What is reason? Even the most experienced and old philosophers don't exactly know what reason is. They don't know where it comes from or what its essence is, so to speak. What we do know, is that reason works. Lets compare reason to rational thinking, even though they are (almost) the same. When you're reasoning, you're thinking in a rational way, which means, you are looking at the outside world, and thinking in a way that you know will work. If you have something in your hand, with your hand being with the palm up, you know that if you turn around your hand palm down, the object will drop down. That's a simple example of rational thinking. Of course, rational thinking can be used for matters which are a lot more complicated than that. We'll get into that later. But the bottom line is, for reason/rational thinking, we use logic, and that logic is implemented in all of us, and we all can use it, and in my opinion should use it. We have the potential to do so, and are even forced to use it many times a day, even though many are not aware of it. Becoming able to awarely use it, will get you very far on different subjects. Logic is our only fundamental feature that we have inside of us, that tells us how the world outside of us works, but not necessarily our feelings. It's also not possible to debunk logic, because to do so, you would need logic itself, which is self-refuting. It's the most basic understanding of the world that we have and use. Remember this, this is important for later on.

Now that we've covered logic and rational thinking (in a very short way), lets get to beliefs and our comfort zone. Every single one of us has a certain comfort zone. This comfort zone is determined by the person's beliefs, confidence and a lot more. The comfort zone covers subjects, situations, actions and occurences which a single individual will find comfortable, or at least, not disturbing. For example, some people like meat, some don't. For the ones who like it, eating meat is in their comfort zone. For others, it's outside of it. And now comes the hard part to explain. The smaller your comfort zone, the bigger the amount of your beliefs (probably). If you have a very small comfort zone, you probably believe a lot of things which are not true, because if you know they were true, you would be comfortable with them much more easily, thus making them be inside your comfort zone instead of outside of it. There are exceptions to this of course on a small scale, but on the big picture, I believe that's how it looks like. Something like war being in so many people's comfort zone for example is a really really bad thing.. But something like being responsible for yourself, being present inside your comfort zone is a very important thing, just like logic for example. So usually, the more you expand your comfort zone in a rational way, the more you grow, since you are able to accept more, do more, gather more experience and act accordingly in different situations, and don't feel desperate or anxious about all those actions.

Now lets get to religion. The main purpose of religion is to tell people how to live. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, that's a good thing in its simplicity. The problem is, that religion in current days narrows one's comfort zone instead of expanding it. It has so many restrictions, that it alienates someone from using one's own logic and rational thinking. And this is in my opinion the place where religion fails. It tells you everything you should do, and you must just do it, without questioning anything, and if you question anything, you need to find your answer within that religion, and not anywhere else, including not inside yourself. In other words, your actions should be natural, without questioning anything, and they should just "happen" for you, for example, it should be "normal" for you to go to church every sunday if you're a Christian, or it should be "normal" for you to pray 5 times a day if you're a Muslim. You just need to do it, like a routine, and not wonder why you're actually doing it, because if you do it, you're doing it right and you'll go to heaven and that's all that matters in the end. But I don't like this kind of thought, because it removes your most precious gift about understanding the world, which is logic like i said earlier. As soon as you start doing routines, you stop using your logic and you don't think rationally anymore. All you're doing is acting like a robot and following rules, which you didn't set by yourself in the first place. The why is very important for your actions.

The why for religions is of course, to go to heaven. But what if there is no heaven? That's one of the questions you're not allowed to ask in religion, because they tell you it's there, so it must be there and don't you dare think otherwise. That's another example of the limits of religion. That question is simply something that came out of yourself using logic, but they've disallowed you to use it. And since logic/reason is the most important feature that humanity possesses, and actually makes us human, it's not probable that religion is the way for you to live your life, because it forces you to throw away your own self potential. To put it a little harsh, religion makes you an animal. Let me explain what I mean by that. If you teach a dog to fetch, or to lead a blind person, he just does it. That's all he knows, and he's not able to question why he should do it, because he's an animal. So, if you want to keep your human self, you will not blindly follow a religion and go to the church to sing that the blood of Jesus saved you, because, that's just what they told you to sing and you lost your humanity and are nothing more but an animal. That does not mean we should ban all religions all together, it just means, when we look at a religion, take the teachings it has, and use it yourself in a rational manner, instead of blindly following it. But your life should still be based on yourself, and not on anything outside of yourself, because the only thing you have to rely on, is yourself. You are the one who is perceiving, and without your perception, the "religious data" could not be processed in any way.

Continued below....

Now that I've explained why I think religion overall is not a realistic way to living our life, let's go to God. Ok, according to the religions, if you agree with what I just said, God basically wants you to be an animal, even though he gave you the ability to be human. Does that seem right to you? Didn't think so. In its essence, i think God exists. What God is usually defined by, is the "creator" of all. In other words, He was present before earth existed, we existed, and even time and space existed. Now we're gonna mix science with religion. Before the Big Bang, time nor space existed, yet, out of "nothing", kaboom, existance was present. Now, one of the basic understandings of science is that matter cannot be created nor destroyed. One of the most recent discoveries say that matter is nothing more than vacuum fluctuations. So basically, all that exists is vacuum. Vacuum is the energy that's needed for the existence of everything that is, and is the only energy that is. This energy is what formed our universe, you and even your use of logic. Now comes a bit of a problem, because we don't know anything about the vacuum, except that it fluctuates into matter and energy. This vacuum is something that we can not perceive at all.

One might say that vacuum then, is God, but i would like to go a bit further than that. Because vacuum is something that might be present in our current universe. We don't know if this is the only one, and can't know that either (yet). So vacuum is the material for everything created in our universe, which we know exists since we live in it, so let's not comment on other universes since we don't know if they're real or not. Since vacuum is the material so to speak, there must be a source of where that material comes from. That source, one might call God. Now, some people might say, yeah, but that source must have come from somewhere too, and that one above it too etc. and can keep going into infinity. The answer to that is simple. It doesn't matter. You read that right. You know why? The fact that you can keep going into infinity means, that at some point, there is something that has no source, no beginning, no end, no limits whatsoever. That's what logic tells us, and that's the bottom line. You can't go further than that, and that's the reason there must be "something" (not the right word to use since something implies a limit) which has the same description as God, which is the ultimate source and the ultimate everything, and has no limits.

To go back to the religious version of God, i want you to ask some questions to yourself. You can write answers in comments if you like.. But at least answer them for yourself based on your own logical thoughts.

Why would God, [who's infinite in all aspects (including time space etc.), who can create humans like Adam and Eve, all knowing, perfect] ;
1) Create you while he knows you would be going to hell because of your own choices
2) Send a prophet at one time instead of giving each individual a direct source of truth at any given moment ( I actually believe he did do that...)
3) Want worship
4) Punish you for trying to use what he gave you
5) Feel human emotions like anger, disappointment etc.
6) By being all knowing and, still have the same approach with his spread of religions, knowing the majority will go to hell in the end

There are more but i think this is long enough already.. That's it for now.

Absolutely truthful and I respect how opened minded you were in your thread.

Let me if i may post my opinion on religious matters as I have pondered them for quite some time.

If there is a "God", a single entity or cosmic being of unfathomable wisdom, knowledge, and grandeur of power then why make a human who over the years learns and evolves to the current of changing times? I feel we can get more answers or understanding with questions because no one persons has every answer! With that said I can move onto my next point. The people you normally think of as average simple folk who attend religious mass, no matter what it may be, are happy! That's perfectly fine with me. If it makes you happy do it! Life's too short to be picky. I however have been observing the phrase possibility! Because it is in possibility that I find no right single religion. If you can imagine a web stretching over our existence. A web for everything, a web for that apple that fell out of your hand. Each strand of that web is possibility and cross woven into the tapestry of web is even more webbing! Meshed together so tight it forms a visible cloth right?! This side of visibility to me is the "logic" you speak of. Reasoning that the apple will just fall due to gravity and make an impact on the ground. Well just think how did gravity come to be? That is a strand of the web. How did the apple become to be red? Another strand. What are the chances that the apple would have a stem? Do you see the chain reaction of infinite possibilities I speak of yet? It is hard to fathom it all because, I believe, we are not evolved enough or are not meant to understand in this fabric of reality. Still we can do our best. It is hard to imagine an alternate reality where there is no such thing as no gravity it might be called something completely strange and react a certain totally different way. Like I said unfathomable!

What I believe happens with religion and religious perspectives is you limit you capacity to comprehend! I also believe strongly that religion was fabricated to keep the populous under one rulers thumb and keep them in fear and in the dark. Saying if you disobey you'll be punished in a fashion as such where there is no stable proof. Like say I was condemned to go to hell, okay I die, miserable, sad, and in my own tears! I can't come back and warn others that I care about to the horrors of the beyond! My point has stood for eons. We only have artistic renderings of this inferno. Back in the days of old this was a form of media. A major one at that. Depicting demons and walls of human bodies piled on top one another. It takes a twisted mind to even conceive of such unpleasantness. You might say that artist had an abnormal brain? So no solid proof and to me it is just a horror fantasy at it's worst where you stop thinking above what you can actually do. Limits pure limitations.

Fact: People often care for each other especially of their own kin. Well don't you think it's being instilled into the new fragile mind that any sins are the worst possible conceivable method of self damnation? I was born into religion, but being a "rebel" I rejected the ways of self loathing and disrespect towards others opinions. I have a good idea of what it's like to grow up having this force fed to you as you grow older and older.

Maybe any other posts could help, and we can collaborate on the "meaning of life"? I don't believe there to be a meaning, but I respect all and any open minded opinions into this grand daddy of all questions. And to me it is a question of self-understanding and improvement.

Self-enlightenment 101

I'm going to be breif cuz I'm about to go to sleep but i will be back tomorrow night fashow!!

Anyway, i totally agree with the above posts..I couldn'tve explained it too much better. i agree in the fact that maybe its just not meant to understand whatever's at the end an beginning of infinity so with thta, whay form religious cults to pretend that you know...or better yet to have a 'preacher' of some kind to tell you when he is but human imself and cannot tell you anything about death, heaven or hell...
And I really agree with the point made about the limitations...peole created that limitation because they could not explain it (God), just like we can't now...and whenever I enter a religious debate I ALWAYS ask the other person would God have human characteristics such as jealousy, anger, etc....

Anyway, off to bed but I'll be back at it tomorrow ...S & F for you both!!!

Originally posted by vasaga
Why would God, [who's infinite in all aspects (including time space etc.), who can create humans like Adam and Eve, all knowing, perfect] ;
1) Create you while he knows you would be going to hell because of your own choices

the bible says the punishment for sin is death (non-existance) but i get your point.

its not about god knowing or not. he created us with free-will. as such we all have the opportunity to decide our fate. just because we may end up on the bad side of the ruling, doesnt mean that the choice wasnt ours

2) Send a prophet at one time instead of giving each individual a direct source of truth at any given moment ( I actually believe he did do that...)

when adam and eve sinned, they rejected god. they decided that from that moment on, they wanted to govern themselves, to know ¨right and wrong¨. god gave them exactly what they wanted. from then on, close personal relationship with god was lost and had to be regained.

yes god is love, but his is also just. to communicate with man, god chose certain channels.

remember too that the isrealites were spoken to directly, but they didnt want it. they told moses to speak to god for them.

3) Want worship

this argument is an oxymoron. supposedly god is not human like in any way and is above worship. but at the same time the possibility that he might actually DESERVE worship is never brought up

4) Punish you for trying to use what he gave you

god never punishes us for using what he gave us. he punishes us for using what he gave us when we use it for something other than its original purpose.

fornication is an example. god designed us to have sex. however he intended it to be between a husband and a wife. using you sexual desires to have sex with a dog would be using it against its original purpose.

one should not assume that just because one desires something, that that desire is from god.

5) Feel human emotions like anger, disappointment etc.

two parts.

1- who says they are human emotions? your assuming that we make god in our image, isnt that just alittle arrogant? the bible says its the other way around. we are made in god´s image.

2- anger has a purpose when used correctly. it is a motivating factor when dealing with injustice. disappointment can help the erring one to be more careful. a child may pay more attention to a lesson that their parents are trying to teach them because they dont want to disappoint them.

all negative emotions have their purpose and place. when used correctly and balanced. just because most of us are unbalance in our display of these emotions doesnt mean that god would not have them

6) By being all knowing and, still have the same approach with his spread of religions, knowing the majority will go to hell in the end

the spread or religions is not god´s doing. mankind has always been confronted with the idea that sometimes they just dont care what god thinks. many religions are created with the motivation of doing things ¨their way¨. some were even created as a means of living. it makes me wonder just how many churches open because it was a source of easy income (not so much anymore)

as i said before, man wanted to rule themselves, and allowed it to prove a point. so we could see with our own eyes just how rubbish we are at deciding for ourselves. the world as you see it today is the baby that was born from that decision.

Originally posted by miriam0566
the bible says the punishment for sin is death (non-existance) but i get your point.

its not about god knowing or not. he created us with free-will. as such we all have the opportunity to decide our fate. just because we may end up on the bad side of the ruling, doesnt mean that the choice wasnt ours

I don't agree. Assuming he's omniscient and independent of time and space, he already knows what he has created and what you are gonna choose using your free will. He created you so he knows all your strengths and weaknesses etc. That means, he knows what your life's gonna be like and what your choices are gonna be. So he also knows if you will go to hell or not. Why create you, if he already knows you'll end up in hell? We might have the opportunity, but he already knows the answer, so it's not really an opportunity, but more like he wanted to burn some people..

when adam and eve sinned, they rejected god. they decided that from that moment on, they wanted to govern themselves, to know ¨right and wrong¨. god gave them exactly what they wanted. from then on, close personal relationship with god was lost and had to be regained.

yes god is love, but his is also just. to communicate with man, god chose certain channels.

remember too that the isrealites were spoken to directly, but they didnt want it. they told moses to speak to god for them.

Love and just. Sometimes those two collide and you can't be both at the same time. How does God handle that? And this is also unfair, i mean, two people do something, and then, all people are guilty. That is against logic and actually primitive. It's like ancient times where the father that was fisherman had a kid, and that kid would also become a fisherman etc and the legacy was passed on. Also if the father was a murderer, they would be more careful of the kid because he would also turn into a murderer. That's actually the kind of thinking done here, which i think is pretty much flawed, because everyone is an individual and they might choose differently. Besides, an omniscient God would have to "test" anything, especially if the isrealites would want it or not because he would already know.

this argument is an oxymoron. supposedly god is not human like in any way and is above worship. but at the same time the possibility that he might actually DESERVE worship is never brought up

The best way to worship is imo to use your abilities to your highest potential, because that's what God/Nature/whatever has given you, and you are the only person on earth who can use it, so do so.

god never punishes us for using what he gave us. he punishes us for using what he gave us when we use it for something other than its original purpose.

fornication is an example. god designed us to have sex. however he intended it to be between a husband and a wife. using you sexual desires to have sex with a dog would be using it against its original purpose.

one should not assume that just because one desires something, that that desire is from god.

Uh.. I was referring mainly to logic here. Religion doesn't allow you to use it, so if religion was truly what God wanted, he would be punishing you for using your logic.
Besides, your example for using it for something else that's not intended is not that logical at all. Our feet were made for walking. It wasn't made to kick a ball, so if you kick a ball you are going against it's purpose so against God's will? There are tons of other examples. I'm sure your hair was not made for cutting, your hands were not made for counting or pointing or typing, your nose was not made for picking it etc.

two parts.

1- who says they are human emotions? your assuming that we make god in our image, isnt that just alittle arrogant? the bible says its the other way around. we are made in god´s image.

Few lines above you said God is nothing human like, but nvm. I'm not assuming that, I'm assuming a perfect being, and such a being would not be angry and especially not disappointed (omniscience..).

2- anger has a purpose when used correctly. it is a motivating factor when dealing with injustice. disappointment can help the erring one to be more careful. a child may pay more attention to a lesson that their parents are trying to teach them because they dont want to disappoint them.

all negative emotions have their purpose and place. when used correctly and balanced. just because most of us are unbalance in our display of these emotions doesnt mean that god would not have them

Funny how the examples you actually give are for human use. God would have no benefit from those emotions at all imo.. You can't be angry at something you created and knowing all about it at the same time, nor can you be disappointed by it. Same argument again...

the spread or religions is not god´s doing. mankind has always been confronted with the idea that sometimes they just dont care what god thinks. many religions are created with the motivation of doing things ¨their way¨. some were even created as a means of living. it makes me wonder just how many churches open because it was a source of easy income (not so much anymore)

as i said before, man wanted to rule themselves, and allowed it to prove a point. so we could see with our own eyes just how rubbish we are at deciding for ourselves. the world as you see it today is the baby that was born from that decision.

I again don't agree. I think the world today is the product of humans being childish. By that i mean, they don't want to take responsibility for themselves and they act like something else needs to take care of them, be it God, the church, the government, money, whatever. Combine that with some people's ambition for manipulation and power, and the other childish people would gladly listen. The amount of childish people is much greater than the ones who want power over the planet, and that's the problem. If people would wake up and take responsibility for themselves instead of other things taking care of them, the world would not be as it is today. Has nothing to do with God's will not being followed, it has to do with using your abilities instead of letting others tell you what to do, and this includes religion.

Lastly, I'm not intending to insult anyone, just giving my point of view.

Originally posted by vasaga
1) Create you while he knows you would be going to hell because of your own choices

I have a few ideas on this one but I'm not currently able to put them down in print quite the way I would like. So I might come back to this one.

2) Send a prophet at one time instead of giving each individual a direct source of truth at any given moment ( I actually believe he did do that...)

This I feel is misunderstanding what the function of a Prophet is. A Prophet is the mouth-peice of God, calling the people to repentance and belief in him, expounding and teaching the Word of God and to lead the people. The exsistance of a Prophet does not prevent us from getting individual direction in our own lives from God. As a loving parent to us all he will give us direction in our lives as we ask for it.

So, a Prophet is for general direction and leadership of the people as a whole. Revilation is open to us all if we just ask for it.

3) Want worship

I think this question has undercurrents of assuming that God wants worship to infalte his ego. It's got nothing to do with that at all.

If we worship something, we dedicate quite a large amount of time to thinking about that thing. Take for instance those people who love Football. They spend large amounts of time talking about thier favorite team, thier favoirte player, desicions the team managers made etc. This could be construed as worship of that sport. Now if we applied that to God, we would be spending time thinking about God, His effect in our lives, his teachings and how we can apply them etc. This is what I believe is meant by our Worship.

4) Punish you for trying to use what he gave you

This is something I think again is a misconception. God doesn't punish anyone. We all must accept the consiquences for our own actions. Infact if we look at the teachings of the religions God spends nearly all his time trying to teach the people how to avoid those consiquences by making the right choices in the first place.

5) Feel human emotions like anger, disappointment etc.

Why shouldn't he? You assume that a perfect being, who has omnisience, can't be happy, or sad, or angry. Why not? Just becauase you know that something is going to happen doesn't mean you can't be happy about it, or annoyed at it.

6) By being all knowing and, still have the same approach with his spread of religions, knowing the majority will go to hell in the end

This question assumes that the splinter groups of religions are infact things that God created or started. Quite the opposite in my belief. I believe that these where established by Satan as a means of confusing the truth from the majoiry of us here on Earth. If my belief is correct, he's done a very good job!

Anyway's, very interesting quesitons and I look forward to the possibility of more.

Doesn't it sound like one great fabricated story tho? They try their damnedest to read over the story and plug any loop holes they might find. Proof: They have many newer editions of the holy bible. Even the Quarn has been updated to changing times, just for the simple fact that there are loop holes in the pages.

Why is it that in the bible instead of reading actual intent on most versus, instead you get a story?! A story that you can interpret which ever way you choose? This creates a plug sufficient enough to extrude any loophole. Some people even get many different meanings out of one word. I know it was an ancient language, but they also should have known how to get a point across without turning it into a broad-way spectacle with broad words?!

By the way has anyone seen Jesus on-ice? It was great!

That is indeed an interesting angle. One that was even covered by Jesus Himself.

Taken from the King James version of the Bible.

Mark Chapter 4 verses 9-11:

9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Simply put it was done in a way at the time to make people think about what was said. Those with an understanding of the truth would see the parable for what it is. With out that, they would simply be a nice story.

Originally posted by balrathamir
Simply put it was done in a way at the time to make people think about what was said. Those with an understanding of the truth would see the parable for what it is. With out that, they would simply be a nice story.

That's interesting too, because while their going through the trouble of making this story into an enigma, not a very big one mind you, that people of ancient civilization were trying their damnedest to learn how to read! So why put puzzles in literature when the common carpenter couldn't read let alone understand what he was reading?

Originally posted by CrlJester

That's interesting too, because while their going through the trouble of making this story into an enigma, not a very big one mind you, that people of ancient civilization were trying their damnedest to learn how to read! So why put puzzles in literature when the common carpenter couldn't read let alone understand what he was reading?

The parables and other stories where mostly recorded in writing so that those who where appointed as Teachers and Prophets could read them and teach from them. It's only until very recent history that the general populus was able to read. Up until that point the way that these truths where taught was though oral communication, and one of the most effective ways of people remebering something is for there to be a narrative to follow.

Simply telling someone "to be kind" is very plain, but can lack weight. When you tell them a story of a man who was injured and the only one who would help him was a supposed enemy you now have context for the meaning of being kind to others.

Okay I understand what your saying. But hear me out. If "god" was giving these prophets stories to read to simply joes then why hasn't he granted the people the ability to read for themselves? This supports my theory of how people with power, instead of teaching the peasant how to read they read to them, keep lesser minion in a sense to themselves. They now hold that illusion of power and the "god" fearing peasant will obey and go about his life in fear.

Now you have people who are educated and who are educating themselves, and they are committing even more sin than say the "god" fearsome of old and this shows that religion is losing it's grip on humanity. Why does it need to have a grip? I understand for most people it doesn't need to have a reason and that they just want to be happy, but I can't be happy with a supreme being letting these things happen to us.

Can you imagine a society without religion?

reply to post by CrlJester


I hear what you are saying. I can't excuse the abuse that has been done to mankind by those in power who didn't really follow thier teachings.

But most of the time, in those ancient places it was an unnessicary skill for the general public to read. However if you look at the Prophets and teachers in Bible they where never afriad of sharing those stories or teaching them to the people.

Also refering to your point of the increase of Sin in the current world, that was something to be expected. If you look at every cycle of people within the Bible (barring the City of Enoch) they went though a very defined cycle which was:

1. Truth taught to the people
2. Acceptance of the Truth
3. Increase in prosperity and Wealth
4. Increase in wickedness and sin
5. Forcably reminded of thier wickedness and who to turn to (be that by a Prophet, an event or some other means)
6. Repentance and repeat.

Right now I see the world between step 4 and 5.

Originally posted by balrathamir
1. Truth taught to the people
2. Acceptance of the Truth
3. Increase in prosperity and Wealth
4. Increase in wickedness and sin
5. Forcably reminded of thier wickedness and who to turn to (be that by a Prophet, an event or some other means)
6. Repentance and repeat.

Right now I see the world between step 4 and 5.

Absolutely! This seems to be the stage of the great life cycle we are at. This comes down to power given to those without! The understanding of truth connects with our futile expansion into the unknown. Just like a virus, but a virus that can think and manipulate others we expand and not for the greater good. We expand to have some kind of stake in claim that we in this world matter! In fact we are so insignificant that we have lost sight of what the "greater good" could actually be. Is it that it's good to help others so they can increase the spread of vile or are we so sure that there is life beyond death, or some kind of external cosmic realm which we in end inhabit? I'm not saying we're all useless, just when we limit our mind set.

Am I gonna be just another spec in the fabric of reality, yeah probably, but it would be nice go out with a greater understanding. To me death is the only unexplored reality of which we can't come back and say hey I'm gone this is what I've done in my lifetime.

Originally posted by vasaga
I don't agree. Assuming he's omniscient and independent of time and space, he already knows what he has created and what you are gonna choose using your free will. He created you so he knows all your strengths and weaknesses etc. That means, he knows what your life's gonna be like and what your choices are gonna be. So he also knows if you will go to hell or not. Why create you, if he already knows you'll end up in hell? We might have the opportunity, but he already knows the answer, so it's not really an opportunity, but more like he wanted to burn some people..

the thing about hellfire is that its not biblical. the choice isnt heaven or hell. its life or death. its a common misconception regarding the bible. however, just because god knows which choice you will make doesnt mean that you are free from the responsibilities or your decision.

many people cite adam and eve as an example. "why create them if they were just going to sin anyway?" the answer to that question lies in their offspring. how many people that descend from them DO put faith in god and live according to his standards? if god knew that adam and eve would make offspring that would be faithful, its makes sense that he would create them despite knowing their eventual outcome.

this also doesnt change the fact that adam and eve were infact responsible for the choice they made. there is nothing in the story that suggests that god's commandment was hard to follow, or even unfair. it was simple: do not eat the fruit. god knowing their eventual outcome has little to do with their choice.

to illustrate: i know my friend sarah very well. i know her so well that i can alot of times even finish her sentences. i know that she HATES fast food. being as i am sick, she gets very mad at me when i get it however i do like to have it from time to time. when i inevitably gets some, i know with 100% certainty that sarah will get mad at me. does this mean that i am responsible for sarah's actions? no.

knowing an outcome does not mean that you are responsible for that outcome. just because god knows that a person will choice a particular way of life does not automatically mean that he is responsible for that decision.

Love and just. Sometimes those two collide and you can't be both at the same time. How does God handle that? And this is also unfair, i mean, two people do something, and then, all people are guilty. That is against logic and actually primitive. It's like ancient times where the father that was fisherman had a kid, and that kid would also become a fisherman etc and the legacy was passed on. Also if the father was a murderer, they would be more careful of the kid because he would also turn into a murderer. That's actually the kind of thinking done here, which i think is pretty much flawed, because everyone is an individual and they might choose differently. Besides, an omniscient God would have to "test" anything, especially if the isrealites would want it or not because he would already know.

alcoholism can pass genetically. so can diabetes.

your right, it is unfair when a child receives some sort of handicap from their parents. god of course sees this unfairness also which is why christ was provided. christ didnt die so that adam could live, he died so that adam's offspring might live. in this respect, we are able to live despite this hereditary sin we possess.

this is not primitive, its fair.

Uh.. I was referring mainly to logic here. Religion doesn't allow you to use it, so if religion was truly what God wanted, he would be punishing you for using your logic.

says who? you?

just because certain religions shun thinking doesnt mean they all do. your assertion in itself is illogical

Besides, your example for using it for something else that's not intended is not that logical at all. Our feet were made for walking. It wasn't made to kick a ball, so if you kick a ball you are going against it's purpose so against God's will? There are tons of other examples. I'm sure your hair was not made for cutting, your hands were not made for counting or pointing or typing, your nose was not made for picking it etc.

a knife is a very useful tool that can make life easier, but using that same knife to murder someone would be using that knife in way that it was not intended to be used.

the argument is very logical

Few lines above you said God is nothing human like, but nvm.

actually i said

"supposedly god is not human like in any way and is above worship."

i was merely highlighting what some people believe.

I'm not assuming that, I'm assuming a perfect being, and such a being would not be angry and especially not disappointed (omniscience..).

assuming without evidence to back the assumption is illogical.

Funny how the examples you actually give are for human use. God would have no benefit from those emotions at all imo.. You can't be angry at something you created and knowing all about it at the same time, nor can you be disappointed by it. Same argument again...

on the contrary. anger would prevent god from tolerating evil indefinitely. disappointment would motivate god's servants who have sinned to correct their course.

if god lacked emotions (lets face it, if he lacks negative emotions, then likely he lacks positive too) then a close personal relationship with him would be impossible. yet this is exactly what god implores us to have. our obedience to his commandments would be mechanical. it would also mean that his commandments (which are based on love) would be illogical.

part of having love is the fear of disappointing the one you love. if you never have experienced this, then you have never loved.

I again don't agree. I think the world today is the product of humans being childish. By that i mean, they don't want to take responsibility for themselves and they act like something else needs to take care of them, be it God, the church, the government, money, whatever.

i agree with the point of being childish. a child wants to have fun but at the same time is ignorant (or chooses to ignore) the consequences of their "fun".

but the bible does not simply say to wait for god to fix things. this is also a major misinterpretation. jesus advocated that we "love one another". if humans took this advice and applied it right now, then the world would be perfect right now. this would immediately solve most the worlds problems. if anyone was more into self responsibility, it was jesus.

it shows a fundamental wisdom on the part of jesus. things like crime and murder or homelessness and hunger are not problems on the level of society, they are on the personal level. if everyone took responsibility on a personal level, then these problems would simply disappear.

the problem is that the world doesnt. and while it does at times have to do with religion (crusades for example), religion cannot wholly be blamed for this. its a "kink" in the human psyche that is to blame. this need to do things our way, for our benefit.

Has nothing to do with God's will not being followed, it has to do with using your abilities instead of letting others tell you what to do, and this includes religion.

Lastly, I'm not intending to insult anyone, just giving my point of view.

it has everything to do with god's will not being followed. the proof lies in the consequences that persist from those commandments not being followed.

jesus was asked what the 2 highest commandments were. he responded with love god (his father) with everything you are, and love your neighbor as your self. then he said that the whole law hangs on these 2 commandments.

the entire motive of the law is not to control people for the sheer novelty of it, it is to have people love the things around them.

when that is not followed, you get pain, suffering and death.

Originally posted by miriam0566the thing about hellfire is that its not ……………………………… a particular way of life does not automatically mean that he is responsible for that decision.

Well I was basically referring to what people are usually being told in churches, not necessarily the bible itself. And to your example, no Sarah is not responsible, because she did not make you. If someone makes an atomic bomb, and it explodes, knowing it would explode, you can not say it’s the atomic bomb’s fault, but the person who made the bomb. Though the atomic bomb does not have a free will, you knew it was gonna explode, and God knows humans were gonna sin when he created them in the first place. Since he’s omnischient he knows it for every single individual… And also, if you have a free will, you shouldn’t be punished for what you do, because that’s not really being free is it?

alcoholism can pass genetically. so can diabetes.

your right, it is unfair when a child receives some sort of handicap from their parents. god of course sees this unfairness also which is why christ was provided. christ didnt die so that adam could live, he died so that adam's offspring might live. in this respect, we are able to live despite this hereditary sin we possess.

this is not primitive, its fair.

Sin is not something you possess. Sin might be an action, or a thought. About the “Christ died for our sins” part, it wasn’t about his death. It was about how he lived and what he taught. His death was only a very small part of the whole message. And that’s assuming the story is completely true, which I don’t believe it is since the Romans manipulated the whole thing. Rising from death part.. I have no comment on. But I think, that if you use your head, you will know what the right way is, and you don’t need to worship anybody to do the right thing. People are going to church to sing “the blood of Jesus saved me” while they’re still living their lives as sheep and judging others for not being Christians..

says who? you?

just because certain religions shun thinking doesnt mean they all do. your assertion in itself is illogical

Yes, I say so. It’s not illogical at all. It’s not “certain” religions, it’s more like “most of the” religions. The whole story being told is usually not even exactly like that in the bible.. And besides, the story being told is based on more assumptions than any other argument. The bible is a factual book, as in, it’s what people truly believed and wrote in the past, and that includes the “banned” apocrypha, but it’s still a book to approach rationally, and not emotionally, almost all religions do approach emotionally.

a knife is a very useful tool that can make life easier, but using that same knife to murder someone would be using that knife in way that it was not intended to be used.

the argument is very logical

Uh.. A knife is a useful tool yes, and is intended for cutting. Cutting a person with a knife, you are still using the knife’s main purpose, which is cutting. That it’s immoral is something else. That has nothing to do with the purpose of the knife at all. Let’s take a Katana (samurai sword) then. The purpose of it was to kill. So if you use it to cut fruit, it would be bad.. no no it’s not logical. Sorry.

assuming without evidence to back the assumption is illogical.

LOL you would be amazed how much stuff in our daily lives are assumptions. Nothing illogical about it. Every single logical argument starts with an assumption. Not to mention religion.. And besides, what I assumed, is what God is usually defined by.. Perfection. That’s it.

on the contrary. anger would prevent god from tolerating evil indefinitely. disappointment would motivate god's servants who have sinned to correct their course.

“Tolerating”. Interesting word. That word actually means to endure something you don’t want to. But how can God not want to endure it, if He is the one that allows evil the exist in the first place? He is the creator of all remember? That includes good AND evil.

if god lacked emotions (lets face it, if he lacks negative emotions, then likely he lacks positive too) then a close personal relationship with him would be impossible. yet this is exactly what god implores us to have. our obedience to his commandments would be mechanical. it would also mean that his commandments (which are based on love) would be illogical.

Bingo (bold part) and no no no (italic part). It’s not about emotions. It’s about spiritual understanding. The emotional part is material. The spiritual understanding is what God (mayB Christ if you want to) is all about, and not about the emotions.

part of having love is the fear of disappointing the one you love. if you never have experienced this, then you have never loved.

agreed, but these are also human emotions, which are basically chemical, and not spiritual. Besides, God would not disappoint, he’s perfect right?

i agree with the point of being childish. a child wants ……~…….its a "kink" in the human psyche that is to blame. this need to do things our way, for our benefit.

Agree with this part

it has everything to do with god's will not being followed. the proof lies in the consequences that persist from those commandments not being followed.

jesus was asked what the 2 highest commandments were. he responded with love god (his father) with everything you are, and love your neighbor as your self. then he said that the whole law hangs on these 2 commandments.

the entire motive of the law is not to control people for the sheer novelty of it, it is to have people love the things around them.

when that is not followed, you get pain, suffering and death.

Though this part might be true, and I think I agree with, we being here is God’s will. We being like we are is God’s will. Everything that exists, is God’s will, because if you can create something that God does not want, he’s not almighty, because you are interfering with his work. So pain, suffering and death, is part of God’s will, otherwise it would not exist. When Jesus said love God, he could’ve meant, love everything that exists, and love your neighbour as yourself, he could’ve meant, treat everyone else as a respected individual, just like you yourself are. You can’t go against God’s will..


[edit on 25-3-2009 by vasaga]

Though this part might be true, and I think I agree with, we being here is God’s will. We being like we are is God’s will. Everything that exists, is God’s will, because if you can create something that God does not want, he’s not almighty, because you are interfering with his work. So pain, suffering and death, is part of God’s will, otherwise it would not exist. When Jesus said love God, he could’ve meant, love everything that exists, and love your neighbour as yourself, he could’ve meant, treat everyone else as a respected individual, just like you yourself are. You can’t go against God’s will..

You've got a very vaild point there, pain, suffering and death are all infact a part of God's plan.

Let me put it this way. If the only colour you had ever seen was yellow how would you understand or know what the colour red was? Or if all you had ever known was Joy how would you know what Sadness was? it is by these contrasts that we are able to know and appreaciate the other.

Sin is not something you possess. Sin might be an action, or a thought. About the “Christ died for our sins” part, it wasn’t about his death. It was about how he lived and what he taught. His death was only a very small part of the whole message. And that’s assuming the story is completely true, which I don’t believe it is since the Romans manipulated the whole thing. Rising from death part.. I have no comment on. But I think, that if you use your head, you will know what the right way is, and you don’t need to worship anybody to do the right thing.

Actually it was about his suffereing in the Garden and his Resurrection, it's these acts that have the power to free us from Sin and Death. I also completely agree with you that people focus far to much on the Death of Christ, that was only a means to an end, the Resurrection. It's his teachings and what he did for us all that should be the focus.

People are going to church to sing “the blood of Jesus saved me” while they’re still living their lives as sheep and judging others for not being Christians..

This is something that many people suffer from. It always happens when you have an "enlightened" people, the lord that knowledge over the masses. That's completely the opposite of what was taught. A true Christian wouldn't judge others simply because they believe something else. they would try and convert them by bearing testimony of the Truth of Jesus Christ and what he did for us.

I've always thought the same way about religion in general it's just as bad as actual brainwashing, I choose to observe the true Sabbath and deepen my beliefs through further enlightenment on my own study and try to help others find the answers they seek but not necessarily give it to them but let them find it out on there own only just point the way like how we would all help other students in school who had trouble with lets say algebra we'd help them to the point where we're almost hinting the answer to them.

Same thing goes for Religion no matter what Denomination don't bash other people or even threaten people in your Church Denomination that it's the true church or the only true religion because the Epistle of Jude warns of False Teachers,Prophets,Priests and Kings all of which are men, it warns all it's readers before the Revelation chapter which is basically telling you how it's table of contents are complied that this will happen right when Revelations begins; which it has long already started MEN will come in the Name of Christ (priests) and Deceive many!

Priests were only suppose to act as someone to help guide you to seek your answers and inner peace salvation comes only through Christ not through a Church.

When the world was handed over to the WICKED when Christ was nailed to the cross Satan knew he didn't have long left to reign here, it's obvious he has taken over the Church because if he does that he can take over the minds who set fourth the laws we follow to live on this planet the Most High has created...You call it Space but the Lord calls it The Heavens, we are only up there to make this come true Satan wants to take back the place he fell from.

Revelations 18
1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

So we really need to stop looking at church denominations as being exclusive V.I.P. fellowship passes to salvation because they aren't.


Most priests/pastors/rabbi's leave deep concerns and questions you have unanswered now-a-days most tend to dance around your question and try and fill your head with some feel good Santa Clause inspiration, which deep down we know is false, but hey people need something to HOPE on but not have faith in, only few actually realize the difference and live by it.




[edit on 20-4-2009 by hezekiah]